Curse

cce · May 02, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Adding more grind, is well, a step in the wrong direction. I like the cosmetic grind -- the 25k armour and weapon skins -- since I'm not forced to do it. I'm a casual player (some weekends and a few hours in the evening). I'm not a 14 year old who can spend his entire summer vacation leveling a character. In fact, I'd rather there be no grind; I enjoy the content, and the challenge. I don't enjoy the collecting.

I'd say that PvE in Guild Wars is quite pleasant. You're not graded by your level all that much (ok, you are graded on your unlocks, but those are usually easy-hanging fruit), excluded based on how much time you've spent playing the game.

Finally, I want to have full access to the content that I've purchased. I don't want to pay full-price for the "newbie" area only since that's the only one that I'll have time to grind through.

That said, if there is going to be grid, there will be people on the 'net selling the avoidance of it, via gold, or even pre-ground characters. Arena.Net should simply sell fully-unlocked versions so that I can opt-out of the grid.

Sniper22 · May 02, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

[QUOTE=NoChance].... on the other hand, people want to have a high level cap so that they can feel accomplished and also show off their high level -- perhaps people would not feel as accomplished if there was no cap, since they didn't "reach the max", and maybe people would even feel uneasy that there may be others walking around of levels much higher than their own (ha ha.. i'll bet people will complain about "level farmers" showing off too much)
[QUOTE]

See this is what I think will happen, no matter long you have been playing, there will always be those who are better than you because they play the game 24/7. People will never be able to have a chance at being at the top with everyone else who plays much more and gains much more experience. 9 times out of 10, a lvl 150 will easily beat a lvl 100, and the lvl 100 will be shouting f***ing grinder or whatever here...

I dont think the sidekick thing will be that great, because if you can't find a friend that is a high lvl, it's useless.

This is why i suggested this earlier...

So with the side-kick system it's all about having a powerful buddy? Seems kinda unguildwars like to me. Should be more of a team boost thing anyway -- have the highest lvl member boost up the rest of the party a few lvls, hoping that you still need a party to do quests and missions.

The worst thing that ANET could possibly do is have no lvl cap IMO. But instead of this whole 100 lvls thing lemme suggest this.

"Cap the lvls at 50, allow people to create lvl 50 pvp only characters (so they can test out different professions) ONCE they get one pve character at lvl 50

After that, there should be a pve rank system, like pvp ranks but with mild PVE ONLY boosts like the lightbringer title. You gain this title by earning pve xp points by doing quests and killing mobs AFTER you reached lvl 50. There can be a max of 10 or so ranks. Every rank you get increased dmg and defense in pve. You will also earn one or two pve only skills unique to your profession every rank."

So people can be a bit more powerful in pve, but people can still feel like they hit the max lvl at 50 so they can be as powerful as everyone else in pvp and nearly as powerful in pve...

But I guess we'll have to see what Anet has planned, I'm sure they wont screw this up for the casual GW players....

Buster · May 02, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I'm all for a higher level cap in GW2 but how exactly will character progression will work is still up in the air. I hope as we level that each level actually means something. It would feel odd if a level 100 guy would be the same as a level 30 guy but who really knows how it is all going to end up.
I am sure as time goes by we will get more info so we can have better disccussions based on more facts on how exactly levels will work in GW2.

perfect · May 02, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Maybe a higher level will only be cosmetic after a certain level. Say for example, after level 100 you still gain XP as usual but no longer get health and skill points. Instead there should be certain high end armors and weapons with level requirements to use. Fellblades might have a level 150 requirement to use for example.

Swift Thief · May 02, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

ANet announced that if say the lvl cap was 100, they would make it so that xp is five times easier/faster to get than what we have now. So it won't really change.

Loviatar · May 02, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swift Thief

ANet announced that if say the lvl cap was 100, they would make it so that xp is five times easier/faster to get than what we have now. So it won't really change.

that is not just wrong it is flatly made up.

the latest interviews stated they were still deciding on the advancing system to be used.

one thing made clear was it would not be a GW1 speed level resulting in complaints of ive reached the cap in a week and what do i do now.

stop making trash up

cce · May 02, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfect

Instead there should be certain high end armors and weapons with level requirements to use. Fellblades might have a level 150 requirement to use for example.

That's a nice idea, good "cosmetic" requirement. What I don't want is a situation where I have to dedicate a month of my life to see the whole game.

Let's put some real numbers on it: 1-2h per weekday night plus 3-4h per weekend, over, say 8 weeks, and that's an acceptable level of grind to get to end game and "max" out a character. So say, 12h/week (a goodam part-time job) for 8 weeks is, 100h. So, I think with 100h you should be able to see just about everything the game has to offer.

I contrast this with WoW, where 100h will get you out of your diaper... barely. Speaking of which, you can fully complete just about any of the current Guild Wars Campaigns in about that same number of hours.

Buster · May 03, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I think some will have to understand that GW2 is not going to be done in campaigns. This is going to be a full blown MMO with higher levels and you will not level so fast as in GW1. There is no point in making a MMO if you can level your character in 2 days, its not going to happen like that in GW2. Yeah I think there will be some grind but whats the point in finishing GW2 in a month when the campaign philosophy will no longer be used. We will get expansions instead.

I wanna enjoy GW2 not rush through it. So if it takes me a decent amount of time to get where i need to be in GW2 then so be it. Just don't expect it to be like GW1 because it won't be when it comes to leveling.

Loviatar · May 03, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

I think some will have to understand that GW2 is not going to be done in campaigns. This is going to be a full blown MMO with higher levels and you will not level so fast as in GW1. There is no point in making a MMO if you can level your character in 2 days, its not going to happen like that in GW2. Yeah I think there will be some grind but whats the point in finishing GW2 in a month when the campaign philosophy will no longer be used. We will get expansions instead.

I wanna enjoy GW2 not rush through it. So if it takes me a decent amount of time to get where i need to be in GW2 then so be it. Just don't expect it to be like GW1 because it won't be when it comes to leveling.

QFT

they also stated that along with the vast persistant world their goal was to make it have interesting things to do whatever level you are in the game.

with the strong sidekicking system giving a temp boost while playing with a much higher level group/friend people wont be left out nearly as much by level snobs.

i really dont care if it takes me a year or more to reach the level cap as long as i am having things to do along the way and not simply *rat bashing*

Lady Maestro · May 03, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

The level cap is the whole beauty of GW for the casual player, especially for PVP. You can compete at the highest level of PVP and hit all explorable areas based on skill, not massive time played.

Even a "flattened" power curve would give higher level players an advantage, creating unequal PVP and limited options in PVE. The impact on PVP would be particularly painful, because every casual player would (correctly) feel that they play at a disadvantage.

I have really loved GW, own all chapters, but tap Anet's servers only 10 or so hours a week. I'm Anet's dream customer, but -- for whatever it's worth -- they will lose me if they lose the level cap (unless it is totally cosmetic in one of the many ways that people have suggested). Obviously Anet can do what they want, and I'm sure there's a player base they think they can grow with this new system. But if the devs are reading this I hope they consider how it affects the casual player.

Lady M.

Bryant Again · May 03, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Maestro

The level cap is the whole beauty of GW for the casual player, especially for PVP. You can compete at the highest level of PVP and hit all explorable areas based on skill, not massive time played.

It's based on builds, not skill. And even with a bad build you can still do pretty damned good, sadly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Maestro

Even a "flattened" power curve would give higher level players an advantage, creating unequal PVP and limited options in PVE. The impact on PVP would be particularly painful, because every casual player would (correctly) feel that they play at a disadvantage.

It's been stated that PvE characters will automatically be balanced to a proper level when they enter a PvP area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Maestro

I have really loved GW, own all chapters, but tap Anet's servers only 10 or so hours a week. I'm Anet's dream customer, but -- for whatever it's worth -- they will lose me if they lose the level cap (unless it is totally cosmetic in one of the many ways that people have suggested). Obviously Anet can do what they want, and I'm sure there's a player base they think they can grow with this new system. But if the devs are reading this I hope they consider how it affects the casual player.

Lady M.

You're making far too many assumptions about the level cap and the casual player. I play Oblivion very casually, it has no level cap, and I'm really enjoying it. That's just an example, it's still too early to determing how "uncasual" Guild Wars 2 will be.

FoxBat · May 03, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I play Oblivion very casually, it has no level cap, and I'm really enjoying it.

Key there is enemies automatically scaling to match you. Which I would imagine GW2 must do to some degree if they want it to remain soloable without henchies.

Nexus Icon · May 03, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

This part of the interview pisses me off:

Quote:

Having a no cost model gives us the additional advantage of not having to implement new content by all means just to keep people playing (and paying) to remain profitable.

If someone wants you take a break (and possibly come back again at a later date) that's perfectly fine for us and we don't have to worry about losing a paying customer.

Essentially, he's saying that once ANet has your cash, they couldn't give a rat's ass about whether you continue to play or not.
Maybe it's just bad translation, but still, way to foster community relations!

jzupko · May 03, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Essentially, he's saying that once ANet has your cash, they couldn't give a rat's ass about whether you continue to play or not.
Maybe it's just bad translation, but still, way to foster community relations!

Wow.

Feel free to disagree, but I believe you interpreted that in exactly the opposite manner in which it was intended.

The priority for most other MMOs is to keep their subscribers paying $15.00 a month. This means that they'll often create content (in my experience) that is shallow, tedious, and far more time-sink than fun, knowing that players are willing to put up with A LOT once they've established social relationships in these games.

ArenaNet, on the other hand, can prioritize that the content is fun. If players finish it in a weekend and stop playing the game, or if they stop playing the game for 3 months because the content was delayed and they got bored, that's fine. Just as long as the overall experience with Guild Wars was "warm and fuzzy" enough so that players buy the future money-making releases (chapters, expansions, what-not), they're happy.

Alex Weekes · May 03, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

This part of the interview pisses me off:

Essentially, he's saying that once ANet has your cash, they couldn't give a rat's ass about whether you continue to play or not.
Maybe it's just bad translation, but still, way to foster community relations!

Look back over the last two years. Think about everything that has been done:

Sorrow's Furnace. Halloween, Christmas, Canthan New Year, Hard Mode, ATS on its way, the titles system ... History shows that it's not a case of taking your money and running. Guild Wars has had a constant stream of free improvements and additions over the last couple of years.

Edit: Basically, it should be read to say "if you decide you want to take a break, you can. There's no fee for you to worry about. Same applies when you decide to come back." We're not asking you to play the game constantly in a search to make sure you get value for money each month. You should get that anyway by being having a good fun game to play.

Longasc · May 03, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

The level based system is outdated.

It is used in subscription fee based games to keep people playing and give them something to grind for.

GW was all about balance, especially in PvP, so level and equipment differences were neutralized. It also saves people from the need to pay and play to stay competitive in gear and level.

Now why do we need high level numbers if they mean little or nothing? Is the real progress not rather char skills and player skills acquired?

If GW2 uses a highly level based zone system like other MMORPGs I think they shoot themselves in the leg. As there are already MANY games out there that offer level and item grind.

These games also suffer from the problem that the higher your level rises the less interesting areas become for you. To the point of bein totally obsolete. Like Old Ascalon pre-Hard Mode for level 20s.

My idea of GW2: Remove player levels
Balance all mobs around level "20" chars, so there is no waste of areas for level 10-12, 12-15 and 16-20 areas. Give people a tutorial island or so and done.

The real progress would still be skills and equipment acquired to have your perfect build for this or that area/foe. Areas would still differ in difficulty, maybe depending on char class or just being intentionally harder than others.

Hopefully their world pvp concept gives people more incentive to play than a simple grind this, grind that. They should not forget that people actually loved GW because you did not necessarily have to grind for anything.

Some people love to grind, but if GW2 tries to keep people by adding grind, they might lose those who chose GW because they do not have to. And who loves to grind can actually just play World of Warcraft and other EQ style mmorpgs or any Asia Grinder.

If they are going the MMORPG route they should not only polish their PvP, but also PvE area challenges. Hard Mode was not the answer for this, it just requires well equipped chars with the proper skills and plays very differently to normal mode, not so much being really "harder".

P.S.: We would then need no silly "buddy" or "sidekick" mechanic as well. And we would not feel punished when playing multiple chars instead of focusing on one.

Sniper22 · May 03, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

that is not just wrong it is flatly made up.

the latest interviews stated they were still deciding on the advancing system to be used.

one thing made clear was it would not be a GW1 speed level resulting in complaints of ive reached the cap in a week and what do i do now.

stop making trash up

I think u missed the sarcasm at that post.... I think....

Anyway as long as GW won't go in the wrong direction with this higher lvl thing and keep the game balanced and based on skill and teamwork more than hours played, then I think we'll be all set.

Bryant Again · May 03, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Key there is enemies automatically scaling to match you. Which I would imagine GW2 must do to some degree if they want it to remain soloable without henchies.

I imagine that they would do something like that in later explorable areas in the game, at least. With a flattened power curve I think that things will go from challenging to slightly less challenging - that's just something I'm hoping for. It's still a complete assumption, we still have no details on how it's going to work.

Pandora's box · May 03, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

I like the idea of recognition if its related to races. Something like this:

You level like useual by fighting and doing quests/missions. You gain the necessary skill points and attribute points. Grind if you like to get richer but...

For using (or buying) items you need recognition from the races they belong to. Now lets say we have humans, dwarves and elves. You want that great elven warbow, but you can't use it until you have a level 10 recognition title from the elves. Unfortunately you also want that great dwarven armor which needs at least a level 8 recognition title of the dwarves... And gaining recognition from dwarves often involves doing something nasty with elves, loosing elven recognition...

This way the game becomes more vividly and making choices suddenly becomes very important.

This is just an example. You can use recognition for many other things, including learning skills, setting environments to friend/neutral/hostile, and so on (maybe the idea behind Factions had something to do with recognition too, but it was very limited and too much focussed on disadvantage (war) rather than making choices to get better).

Loviatar · May 03, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat
Key there is enemies automatically scaling to match you. Which I would imagine GW2 must do to some degree if they want it to remain soloable without henchies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I imagine that they would do something like that in later explorable areas in the game, at least. With a flattened power curve I think that things will go from challenging to slightly less challenging - that's just something I'm hoping for.

i dont think that Foxbat is correct as i have not seen even a hint of enemy scaling mentioned in any preview or interview.

there has been extensive mention of the *STRONG* sidekicking system and Jeff Strain was the person who used the adjetive *strong* not me.

not just a sidekick system but a *strong* sidekick system.

furthermore that was described as raising the sidekick enough that they would be *able to keep up* and *not be a burden* on the buddy/person taking them into higher level content.

it was stated that this would be needed for level differences of as little as 10 levels or more.

as long as there are fun things to do i dont care if it takes me a year to reach even level 75 let alone the cap if i am doing things and not just *rat bashing*

this will be Anets version of an MMORPG hopefully as Anet stated without the unfun things that plague the present crop of MMORPG

scaling enemies do not fit into that picture at all as the game would be too accessable to lower level players too fast and they want the persistant game world to last as this will not be chapter based.