Curse

cellardweller · Apr 28, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Okay, so doing the math here... 1.5 hours a night times about 180 nights is 270. Spread among ten characters that's 27 hours per character. That's (300/27) or about eleven skills an hour. Just to get this straight, is that what you are suggesting?

11 skills/hour for the first 30hrs of a character's life is perfectly reasonable to build up a library capable of making builds with.

Kashrlyyk · Apr 28, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

....
These statements seem contradictory. If casual players are merely using farming as an occasional, supplemental income source, then this update should not be drastically affecting them, as their primary income comes from other sources.

If they are using farming as a primary income source, I agree with Darksun that they are not casual players.
...

What source of income do you have after completing every quest, that you want to finish? Even casual players will reach that point.

MerLock · Apr 28, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Nah, even if casual players use farming as their primary source of income, they can still be casual players. 1hr of farming can easily net you 10k before the nerf. So you can play like one hour a day and let say you put 3 days into farming so that's 30k a week. The other 4 days you just run primary quests or what not. At that pace, the casual player can afford many high end items and you still get some money from playing through on top of the farming.

However now with the nerf, just questing or playing through the game nets on average about 2k an hour. So the time to get the same amount of money through playing through the game for me, is a lot more than if I just farmed it.

kvndoom · Apr 28, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

I wish people would stop attacking Gaile personally. She's not a programmer, she's a PR person. She gets info from the devs and relays it to us, and she reads the drivel on these forums (and I can imagine how painful that sometimes must be) and then derives some meaningful opinion from all the sludge and relays it to the dev team. There's a reason the programmers rarely post on online forums, and it's the kind of reception they know they'd get.

People so seldom see more than one side of an issue. Why have Paragons gotten nerfed so much? Typical respone: "Anet hates Paragons! Why'd they make a new class and then make it useless?" Reality: Watch Paraway in Observer Mode one time and you'll understand quick. A single Paragon may not make a big difference, but 2 or more working in synergy are amazing. And this is after the many nerfs. But, people only see what they want to see, not the whole picture.

Doesn't seem like anyone took the time to consider the loot adjustment very well. Typical response: "Anet hates solo farmers! My 250 ectos aren't worth what they used to be! I can't make 20k a minute anymore!" Reality: Hard Mode presented a dilemma. In order for people to want to play hard mode, Anet had to make it inviting. So HM has more drops and better drops than Normal. Fine. So with the old loot system, people (and I'd be willing to bet MANY more people than bots) would begin soloing whatever areas they could in HM to get a ton of high-end drops. Some of my old builds still work in HM. Easy farms in HM under the old loot system would just make grinders ridiculously rich, and further grown the divide between the haves and have-nots. But the overall drops have to be better in HM or people don't play it at all. So, here are 4 options Anet had on the table:

* Reduce drop rate in Normal Mode only. Nobody cares, the good stuff is in HM anyway. Everybody solos HM, gets even more for their time.

* Old loot system, same drop rate in NM and HM. HM is harder to solo, drops per person is lower with teams, people solo NM.

* New loot system in HM, old skool in NM. Duh, we farm where shit actually drops.

* New loot system in both NM and HM. The whine festival begins.

Realistically, without the new loot system, Hard Mode would be a farmer's paradise. Bots included. Reduced drop rate was because of HM, but most seem to fail to understand that. No, I don't think the reduced drop rate was done correctly, but I do at least understand why it was done.

The drop rate for team farming should have increased significantly. For starters, the amount of gold per pile should be a base number * the number of people in your group. 1 man kills 1 enemy by himself, he gets 105 gold. 8-man team kills the same monster, 840 gold drops. Maybe a little out of proportion, but something along those lines. Except for the items restored in the emergency update, right now full team = 100% drops, and it scales down from there. Using current drop rate as a 100% baseline, full team needs to be 200% minimum, and then scale down the where half team is 100% and solo is 40-50%. Solo shouldn't be 1/6th or 1/8th simply because it's how some people choose to play the game. Me, I despise trading. I'll give something to a guildie before I'll spend 20 seconds spamming in trade chat. But that's me. Some people would spam trade chat all day before they'd go and kill monsters for hours on end. You should be rewarded for how you choose to play.

More suggestions on how to properly distribute drops would go a lot farther than flaming and hating and threatening to quit. Just because you go pay Blizzard 15$ a month doesn't mean they won't ever change their game to your dislike. But some lessons are best learned the hard way...

boko · Apr 28, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Maybe I'm "trying to hear what I wanted to hear" or maybe now you're just covering your butt.".

Covering my butt? I think that you are getting awfully defensive about this and it is you in fact that is trying to cover your butt. In my posts to you and the points and questions that I asked, you have completely ignored all of them, and divert them into something that implied that I was talking about a "phantom inflation" when my whole post was about :How was Anet actually helping casual gamers? . And here again,with this post, you dodge the questions and now try to turn it into a personal attack, with the pretext that "I am covering my butt".

I make note to you that I addressed every single point that you pointed out, and had the decency of answering all your points. I even tried to be diplomatic and gave you the benefit of the doubt that there was a slight chance of misinterpretation in my post. You ,on the other hand, are doing the exact opposite, and even had to get agressive about it. I think I've been way too respectful to you, and that you dun't even deserve it. I've chosen my words carefully. Maybe you should have done the same. You should have a good look at yourself in the mirror, sir. Coz the one that is running away and getting all defensive about it while evading my questions is you.

You have yet to answer my question about how this update ,on its own, is helping the casual gamer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

No It means exactly what I said it means. It's not a good gauge of inflation.

I never said it was a gauge of inflation. I said there was no inflation, and emphasized it in the last post. It's you who wanted to think that I was talking about a "phantom inflation", when I was clearly not. But the fact that I was making that the poor gets poorer and the rich gets richer is nicely demonstrated in your example of "tombs" which drops only in hard mode. And I thank you for this nice illustration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

How can people not see this even after I keep pointing it out. Talk about hearing what you want to hear:
"These "nurfs" are much more complex then people give them credit. And having to balance stopping bots, controlling the economy, keeping the value & rarity of items reasonable, adjusting the difficulty of the game, & making sure it's still fun (which is relative to each of those points since any of them can make it not fun).

You talk about complexity of this nerf. Fair enough. Then point to us which part of this update we missed, instead of dodging the question. Where is it that is really helping the casual players?

Point to us how it makes things more available to casual players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

That's true, it is like relying on the lottery in a sense, but I don't think it's that drastic. As for what I am "missing" here; 1 good purple item can bring in more gold than 50 blues.

One purple can bring more gold than 50 blue? Since my whole time playing that's not the impression I got. I never seen people buying purple for an awfully lot of cash. People only buy gold items as far as i saw. At merchants, it almost the same in price to blue or white too. So, I dunt see how that can be worth more than 50 blues.

Unless you are talking about those purple that have almost perfect stats. But in that case , you should also testify for us how often those drops happen.

As far as I know, a collector blue items is worth more than a purple item in terms of usefulness. Not only does it have perfect stats but you can get it whenever you want and relatively easily. So, usually 5 collectable drops like mino horns or whatever > a purple. And with this update, collector items are more grinding to get than ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

But the update effects solo farmers more than anyone. Those aren't casual.

That's where you are dead wrong. Solo farmers does not mean that they spend hours and hours at farming. It only means that someone is killing all the mobs on his own. Hardcore farmers are those that you are referrring to. You are just generalsing and assuming that farmers = people that spend hours and hours making cash.

Example:
If someone kills a group of mobs for 30mins - 1hour on his own, guess what? He is termed as a "Solo Farmer". And if he spends the rest of his 1 hour left of gaming to questing/missions, then his total hour = 2hours. 2 hours gaming is casual. Yet, he fits the solo farmer term too. Hence, the "casual farmer" term.

In other words, a solo farmer can be a casual player.

boko · Apr 28, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

I wish people would stop attacking Gaile personally. She's not a programmer, she's a PR person. She gets info from the devs and relays it to us, and she reads the drivel on these forums (and I can imagine how painful that sometimes must be) and then derives some meaningful opinion from all the sludge and relays it to the dev team. There's a reason the programmers rarely post on online forums, and it's the kind of reception they know they'd get.

Agree fully. People should tone down their rant, and try to discuss the issue calmly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Realistically, without the new loot system, Hard Mode would be a farmer's paradise. Bots included. Reduced drop rate was because of HM, but most seem to fail to understand that. No, I don't think the reduced drop rate was done correctly, but I do at least understand why it was done..

This is also what I think. Unlike what people say that it was unfair and blah blah, I think the droprate was modified because of Hardmode. And I also think that it was done really badly unfortunately.

If you want to fix the problem, you have to aknowledge it 1st and then offer suggestion to it.

The problem here is there are some people that are going to deny that there is a problem, and pretend that everything is fine because they just don't care about it, and it does not affect them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

More suggestions on how to properly distribute drops would go a lot farther than flaming and hating and threatening to quit. Just because you go pay Blizzard 15$ a month doesn't mean they won't ever change their game to your dislike. But some lessons are best learned the hard way...

Agree.

Kaleban · Apr 28, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

That is by design, and it happens in most every RPG. The point of giving so many "useless" drops which are merchant fodder is that it makes the occasional good one seem that more exciting. It's a lot more interesting to get a hundred 10g drops and one 10k drop than it is to get a hundred 110g drops, because the unique one is much more memorable. It's a psychological effect that keeps people interested in the game.

You don't know ANet's rationale behind the drop system, please stop parroting your opinions as fact. People didn't farm vermin and trolls for the "occassional 10k drop" they farmed them for merchant fodder to be able to buy skills or to save up for something nice. If people wanted the Superior Vigor rune, they farmed ettins for example, and got the psychological happiness from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

As an aside, this is one of the arguments against simply upping the quest and mission rewards. If everyone gets used to having a higher money supply, then expensive stuff loses its value. blackbird said a while back that you have to be careful about changing end-game rewards. This goes both ways: if 15k and FoW armor become easily accessible by everyone, it completely devalues the sets that people worked for in the past. Depending on the magnitude of the adjustment, increasing quest/mission rewards could have a more dramatic effect on the economy than this update did, simply because it affects everyone.

As you said, it goes both ways, NOW those same armor sets are worth much more, making the rich richer in terms of possessed wealth. However I agree that making quest/mission rewards, a token system expansion etc. is much more conducive to party play than nerfing an entire play type, ANet seems to not agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I don't think you're applying that correctly... demand should go down when prices increase.

Again, basic economics is helpful when trying to understand complex supply and demand logistics. Prices don't increase arbitrarily, they reach a balancing point between what people are willing to pay, what they can pay, how much supply exists, and how quickly supply can be replenished. But demand for an item is usually constant, unless perceived social value goes down. So, in reality, demand stays the same, supply decreases, prices go up. If demand decreased as the supply decreased, pricing would remain static.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Remember, demand is how many people are willing to pay for the item, not how many people want the item.

Exactly the opposite, at least in this game. Demand is determined by the amount of people who want the item, prior to the update, those people could go farm for the items/gold necessary to make the purchase. NOW, the dynamic has changed, so that high end items will not be able to be afforded through concerted effort, which means only those ALREADY capable of affording the high prices will be able to do so.

What this does is causes the rift between poor and rich to further stratify, in effect, causing the exact opposite of ANet's stated intention. Had they asked anyone with a basic knowledge of economics about this prior to the nerf, they would have received the same advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

These statements seem contradictory. If casual players are merely using farming as an occasional, supplemental income source, then this update should not be drastically affecting them, as their primary income comes from other sources.

Wrong. Casual players used farming to afford high priced items and 1k skills, not ID and Salvage kits. This update effects every casual player/farmer on a massive scale, because their targets are not high end golds in HA, or green farming in Hard Mode, which ANet has preserved. Theirs was merchant fodder to sell to afford some nice extras, maybe a couple of keys, or some cap sigs. In this game, once you've done all the quests and missions, you have two choices:

1. Play Hard Mode - most casual players won't be grinding for Vanquisher.
2. Title Farm - Most casual players can't afford the gold outlay necessary for most titles BEFORE the nerf, now its even more rediculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

If they are using farming as a primary income source, I agree with Darksun that they are not casual players.

As you've said to me before, this is a game, not work. Farming was a way for the casual player to make some quick in-game cash, so that his or her time was not spent grinding for necessities. Now however, the entire focal point of the game has shifted because the option has been removed, with the only justification being that "it helps everyone, so don't argue." As has been quoted before, Gaile has stated that this helps the casual player/farmer drastically, while still preserving the hardcore farmers income. Now look at the exemption list. What is STILL exempted is what casual players/farmers depended on to make the cash needed for skills and such to be able to play the game for fun, rather than work. Hardcore farmers don't need to worry, they can go solo a high priced green and sell it for 20k or more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

And then complain about WoW once they realize that they can't get an epic flying mount on a casual player's schedule?

If I'm not mistaken (don't play WoW) Blizzard has never stated that they want the "coolest" items accessible to ALL players, and that epic and prestige items are obviously reserved for those players willing to put more time and effort than the casual player into acquiring it. As is logical.

Look, I realize some of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But can you honestly say that someone who plays a couple of hours a week should be rewarded just as much as someone who clocks in ten hours a day? Because that's the rationale ANet is using and you're defending...

Spazzer · Apr 28, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

the introduction of Hard Mode provides a place they can play where the loot is better than ever before

So, why are the drops in hard mode on par with normal drops in Kourna-ish areas?

The reason to play hard mode is not for the drops, it's for your new titles you decided to add.

Revan Bastille · Apr 28, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revan Bastille

2) According to the laws of supply and demand, if supply (of gold) goes down, then the demand (for gold) will go up and the prices will go up as well. This being the case, I believe that the bot farm owners will not only continue to operate, but thrive -- since there is more real world profit involved. The bots don't care if they get 1/5 or 1/8 the amount of gold that they used to on each run, the owners can just buy more accounts and farm, farm, farm. It is my opinion that the farming nerf did more to help bots than the legitimate players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I don't think you're applying that correctly... demand should go down when prices increase.

Remember, demand is how many people are willing to pay for the item, not how many people want the item.

Perhaps what I said was not clear, so let me explain my opinion a bit further.

As we all know, the supply of gold drops in Guild Wars has fallen. Also, from my experiences and many others who have posted here, you don't usually make the same amount that you used to on farming runs, even after selling all the items that drop. If this trend continues and people start going through the gold they have now and cannot make enough through farming, etc to purchase the things they want, they may seek out alternative ways of getting gold -- including buying it from the (bot) farmers. (Supply of gold down, demand up ==> the number of people willing to pay will have risen. The farmers, also experiencing the lack of gold drops, raise their prices to make up for the increase in time and possibly the number of bots they have running. (From what I've seen, the farmers prices have already gone up .)

Now, I agree that a hike in prices will cause a decrease in the number of people who are willing to buy gold. However, there will be an equilibrium established -- The farmers & farming companies will adjust their prices depending on the number of buyers and what the buyers are willing to pay. I still believe (as is evidenced already) that there will be an overall jump in the cost of buying gold thru farmers. This is what I was referring to in my previous post.

(The model for what will happen to the cost of in-game prices is different from this and should not be confused with this one.)

blackbird71 · Apr 28, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

These statements seem contradictory. If casual players are merely using farming as an occasional, supplemental income source, then this update should not be drastically affecting them, as their primary income comes from other sources.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that there are casual players use solo farming to suppelemtent their gameplay, not their income. For these players, solo farming becomes the primary income which is then used to pay fo the skills and stuff that they want in order to play the game, as the in-game quest rewards etc. are not enough to afford these wants. Yes, I said wants and not needs, because I don't want to get into the argument of what is needed to play and what is wanted. It's a pointless argument because it's a game, the whole thing is about wants. It's about wanting to play the game your way, the way that has worked just fine until something like these changes come along. It's about enjoying the game, and no matter what you argue, the fact is that there are players who no longer enjoy the game as a direct result of these changes. No argument can change that fact, and it is so crucial that it cannot be ignored.

So no, the statements are not contradictory. Casual players play the game for the content. Quest and other content rewards are not enough to pay for their wants. They solo farm to be able to afford those wants. Anet makes solo farming much less profitable, essentially taking away this source of income (I never said all sources, just this one). No additonal change is made to provide an alternative income source (i.e., raise quest rewards). Therefore, the casual player(assuming he will remain casual) has two options. He can continue playing the content without the income from solo farming, and therefore not being able to afford his wants, making the game less enjoyable for him as an individual(everyone has a different idea of fun, someone else's idea doesn't make these players' idea any less valid), or he can simply quit the game and find something more fun.

Alas Poor Yorick · Apr 28, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Been over a week now since the nerf and still no word from ANet that they will change things.

I know they are looking to see what prices do in the long run

But a game is just for fun and players don't wait for the long run

I thought this weekend event would liven things up a bit

But all it has done is moved people away from the main selling areas so you have to spam even more to get anywhere near a decent price.

Finished 2 of the 3 games - no more quests or missions to do in them unless I want to try them again for title or do them in hard mode (not especially interested in that). Was enjoying saving up for stuff but don't get any drops in normal and cant sell the golds and greens i get in hard.

And playing for 30 mins and then standing trying to sell for an hour is just not my idea of a great time.

I'll AFK LDoA for a while but after that if there are no changes, no point to play. Enjoyed it while it lasted - but its over now - dont think ill bother with GW:EN or GW2.

I still can't figure out why ANet cant realize that when they get this much negative feedback it means that people are not happy. And, in a game, unlike real life, you have a limited window of opportunity to fix things. After that it is twice as hard to get players back as it was to get them to play in the first place.

axmonkey · Apr 28, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I went to the trouble of registering for this forum to say:
Loot Scaling Sucks.

I consider myself a casual farmer, made a trapper ranger.

Now, I can kill 9 level 24-26 creatures and get all of 1 white drop and if I'm lucky 100g, well that was WELL worth the time of setting 12 traps. I don't have a lot of time to play in groups because real life tends to interrupt me. So solo is the way I like to play. Plus loot drops in groups or with heroes/henchies usually suck too. So now we get crap drops in groups AND solo AWESOME! Thanks for making the game A LOT less fun to play.

rohlfinator · Apr 28, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

11 skills/hour for the first 30hrs of a character's life is perfectly reasonable to build up a library capable of making builds with.

I guess we have a difference of opinion here, but I highly doubt any casual player will be able to earn 11k/hour in addition to questing, missions, socializing, acquiring skill points and capping elites. If you can do that, more power to you, but you are definitely not a casual player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You don't know ANet's rationale behind the drop system, please stop parroting your opinions as fact.

1. Who am I parroting, again?
2. You're right, I don't know for sure what Anet's reasons were. However, random drop systems such as this one are a pretty well established characteristic of the RPG genre, and that rationale is used in numerous other games. It's reasonable to assume that Anet was using similar reasoning.

Quote:

As you said, it goes both ways, NOW those same armor sets are worth much more, making the rich richer in terms of possessed wealth.

Armor is not "possessed wealth" because it can't be sold. Having FoW armor doesn't make you richer.

Quote:

But demand for an item is usually constant, unless perceived social value goes down.

This is completely false for items with elastic demand, like luxuries and entertainment items. The music industry discovered this the hard way: raise the price of CD's, and suddenly there are a lot fewer people willing to pay for them. Guild Wars gold falls into this category as well, as it is not a necessity to life or a societal standard.

Quote:

In this game, once you've done all the quests and missions, you have two choices:

1. Play Hard Mode - most casual players won't be grinding for Vanquisher.
2. Title Farm - Most casual players can't afford the gold outlay necessary for most titles BEFORE the nerf, now its even more rediculous.

3. Go for titles that don't require gold - Protector and Cartographer are fairly straightforward and don't require any investment.
4. Play PvP - This was intended to be the "end game" of Guild Wars anyway.
5. Go outside - Seriously, if you've done every quest and mission in all three campaigns, there's nothing wrong with taking a break from the game until new content comes out. For players who don't like farming and have most of the game completed, trying to squeeze more enjoyment out of the game is just going to end in disappointment.

Quote:

Is you've said to me before, this is a game, not work. Farming was a way for the casual player to make some quick in-game cash, so that his or her time was not spent grinding for necessities. Now however, the entire focal point of the game has shifted because the option has been removed, with the only justification being that "it helps everyone, so don't argue."

The focal point of the game was never farming, so I don't know how you can seriously say that it has shifted. The focus is still squarely on 8-player gameplay, just as it always has been.

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken (don't play WoW) Blizzard has never stated that they want the "coolest" items accessible to ALL players[...]

Neither has ArenaNet. I'd be very interested in seeing a quote from either Gaile or Anet saying that "the coolest items should be accessible to all players."

Quote:

Look, I realize some of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But can you honestly say that someone who plays a couple of hours a week should be rewarded just as much as someone who clocks in ten hours a day? Because that's the rationale ANet is using and you're defending...

I think we both agree that the game should be friendly to casual players. From my point of view, balancing the reward system helps achieve that goal. I'm not sure how you can argue in favor of reducing the gap between the rich and the poor, and then suggest that the game should show preference to players who play 10 hours a day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

So no, the statements are not contradictory. Casual players play the game for the content. Quest and other content rewards are not enough to pay for their wants. They solo farm to be able to afford those wants.

But if they're playing for the content (I assume by content you mean quests and missions), then wouldn't they spend their time playing the content (which they find fun) rather than farming (which they don't enjoy) for some non-content "wants"?

I think the real root of this disagreement is that all of us are trying to speculate about how casual players play, even though we have no real definition of "casual". The whole discussion seems to have degenerated into essentially, "this is how it affects me, and I consider myself a casual player, so this is how it affects casual players as a whole." Which is not very productive or meaningful. So that being said, I'm going to refrain from discussing the effects on casual players, because I don't think anyone here (myself included) really has the qualifications to speak on behalf of "casual players."

Liberations · Apr 29, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I'm still suprised that this SAME thread has been alive for so long.

Just two cents I'd like to give:
Prices of crafting materials have now gone DOWN. Obsidian Shards are about 100g down already and I think ectos are about the same, but im not sure. This isn't a lot, but it's making it a lot EASIER for the average player to make money. Most of the arguements here are ignoring the fact that the price of money will go up, and although some will be very rich for a while, it really wont matter because they'll have so much money there wont be anything to spend it on. Casual players will not got as much money, no, but what a casual player needs will go down signifigantly as the prices decrease on materials. Special skinned things can now be more easily obtained in normal mode, because of the decrease in power to NM stuff. Maybe i'm rambling on for nothing, but in the long run, most players will benefit.

I hear there's new info coming out on Gamespy about GW 2 tonight. Why don't we concern ourselves with that instead of something that will almost certainly be closely monitored by ArenaNet, who by the way, made the game you love and wouldn't dare to really destroy our times playing Guild Wars. Maybe loot-scaling is for the better, only time will tell.

cellardweller · Apr 29, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I guess we have a difference of opinion here, but I highly doubt any casual player will be able to earn 11k/hour in addition to questing, missions, socializing, acquiring skill points and capping elites. If you can do that, more power to you, but you are definitely not a casual player.

Ummm, thats kind of the point. I am a casual player, I play 1-2 hrs a night with an extra couple thrown in on weekends. Prior to the update I would do the occasional hour or two of solo farming to get gold for skills and xp scrolls - life was good.

Because I can no longer farm for gold, I can no longer to afford the basic necissities I require to enjoy the game - all of this as a direct result of the update.

Nomen Mendax · Apr 29, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I think we both agree that the game should be friendly to casual players. From my point of view, balancing the reward system helps achieve that goal. I'm not sure how you can argue in favor of reducing the gap between the rich and the poor, and then suggest that the game should show preference to players who play 10 hours a day.

I don't see how the chosen method (reducing farming income) of balancing the reward system makes the game easier for casual players. Most of the items casual players are likely to purchase have fixed costs. Reducing farming income doesn't help them with this one iota, and in fact makes it harder for them, as it means they can't do a quick bit of farming to increase their cash flow.

Quote:

I think the real root of this disagreement is that all of us are trying to speculate about how casual players play, even though we have no real definition of "casual". The whole discussion seems to have degenerated into essentially, "this is how it affects me, and I consider myself a casual player, so this is how it affects casual players as a whole." Which is not very productive or meaningful. So that being said, I'm going to refrain from discussing the effects on casual players, because I don't think anyone here (myself included) really has the qualifications to speak on behalf of "casual players."

Why isn't it meaningful? I'll concede that it may not be productive if ANet doesn't take any notice, and it is certainly repetitive! While I do consider myself a casual player, more importantly I can say how the update affects me which surely is the point here. Of course, I'm not presuming to speak on behalf of anyone else, and, like you I suspect, it irritates me when people start talking about "we" or "us"). Presumably ANet can make their own judgement on exactly what proportion of their customers they've annoyed by the update and proceed accordingly.

ValaOfTheFens · Apr 29, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liberations

I'm still suprised that this SAME thread has been alive for so long.

Just two cents I'd like to give:
Prices of crafting materials have now gone DOWN. Obsidian Shards are about 100g down already and I think ectos are about the same, but im not sure. This isn't a lot, but it's making it a lot EASIER for the average player to make money. Most of the arguements here are ignoring the fact that the price of money will go up, and although some will be very rich for a while, it really wont matter because they'll have so much money there wont be anything to spend it on. Casual players will not got as much money, no, but what a casual player needs will go down signifigantly as the prices decrease on materials. Special skinned things can now be more easily obtained in normal mode, because of the decrease in power to NM stuff. Maybe i'm rambling on for nothing, but in the long run, most players will benefit.

I dunno. I've been trying to get my Ranger max armor for the past week and simply can't. I'm willing to get the same armor skin(Sunspear) as long as the armor is 1k a piece. I need 200 Chitin Fragments and 200 Bolts of Cloth(I already have them) and buying crafting materials from the NPC can get expensive and tedious. In the past I used to salvage about 25% of my drops just for the materials but now I only salvage the "Highly Salvagable" drops and sell the rest. I've made significantly less in the past week and my crafting material stores are suffering badly. I recently completed a number of bows for my Ranger and a new armor set for my Necro and so my materials AND my savings took a hit and now there's really no feasible way to regain my wealth. I've been doing Tomb more but the drops stink there and I can't make any money off the greens that drop there. I haven't been doing any chest runs or my weak attempts at farming lately because I've been developing my toons so I can get HM and so I've been doing what "casual" players do: missions and quests. I've never had so few drops and so many of them white drops. Now I'm not in any endgame areas but I should be getting more blue drops. How am I going to benefit from this loot scaling when I can't afford to buy the weapon mod I want or a skill I need? I'm not in the poor house yet but its a real possibility and soon.

GodofAcid · Apr 29, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I'll be honest, I thought I could live with this change.. I thought it was a fair trade-off to finally put a hurt on botters, but this is making it very difficult to enjoy this game. I've been through most of the missions in this game so many times that I'd rather not do most of them ever again.. it's like eating the same thing for dinner day after day. You will get sick of it. The thing I enjoyed about farming runs was not just about getting rich like so many people seem to think, but about seeing the reward. I enjoyed watching my money in storage go up more than having the money itself. It was a sense of accomplishment for me. You can dissect that any way you'd like but that's the truth. I've been farming cupcakes at vermin over the last couple days. I usually find 2 per run, 4 if i'm lucky, sometimes none. After enough farming to build up about 55 cupcakes, I've found 1 gold, a bunch of junk dyes, and pretty much nothing else. Killing a group of 6-9 vermin now nets me 2-3 junk white items/vermin hides, sometimes less (There are too many times that I now find 2-3 items total from the entire group where the boss is). That's not fun. I don't see the reward in doing that run anymore, and it makes me not want to do it. I've never enjoyed green farming, and ecto farming can get old pretty quickly. It was nice to have a variety of fun farming runs, but now I find that they're not fun anymore, I don't want to do them, and it doesn't leave me with much in this game that I enjoy anymore. I can't see myself hanging around much longer, the fun for myself is pretty much gone from this game. I don't think I'm alone in feeling that way either.

Too many chefs in the kitchen killed this game. I'm all for people trying to improve it, but there's a balance to it, and right now there are too many people trying to make too many changes and trying to fix things that aren't broken.

arcanemacabre · Apr 29, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodofAcid

Too many chefs in the kitchen killed this game. I'm all for people trying to improve it, but there's a balance to it, and right now there are too many people trying to make too many changes and trying to fix things that aren't broken.

I agree with this, actually. Except that most of those chefs in the kitchen aren't chefs, they're the community... us, the players. Anet is often accused of not listening to the players enough, but I think the real problem is they listen too much - they let the players all but control the game.

Now, I know I've been a [fairly avid] supporter of this recent loot scaling change, but that is only my opinion, and I usually add to it that other changes (like more money overall from quests, etc) must be made for this to fully work. However, and I stress this now, if Anet is going to listen to the players, please find a way to do what the majority wants, and keep your vision of the game intact.

It's obvious that your vision of the game does not include botting and gold selling - gotcha. It is also obvious that people want to farm, and they want to make [decent] money doing so - gotcha. If your vision also includes all average players making equivalent cash to support their characters, no matter the playstyle (farming, questing, adventuring, etc.), then find a way to do that, please. This loot scaling is not working as-is, and either needs supplementing, re-working, or just plain removing until a better option rears it's head.

All of this I just typed can be applied to just about any change/nerf implemented so far, including the SR nerf that I am also adamant about. The old addage "Don't fix it unless it's broken." applies, but can also be said "Don't break it in a different way, just because it's already broken." - and you can quote me on that.

manitoba1073 · Apr 29, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

You guys know whats funny about this is. How easy it would be for Anerf to fix it the correct way. All they would have to do is remove the loot scaling and leave everything else as is. And thats all it would take to solve the bot problem too. Ive said that for a long time now.