Curse

Njaiguni Blaze · May 29, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

And for the 10 seconds each one of those skills are on recharge you...?

Use Empathy, Spirit Shackles, Shatter Enchantment and Guilt. But usually after two shatters and help from my team, it is dead.
Edit: I've never been to the Deep :|

arcanemacabre · May 29, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

It is true that cookie-cutter builds are in fact more effective, except in those odd moments where a new, future cookie-cutter build is created.

Now, what would you consider more fun (since this is a game, and should be solely about F-U-N): the same old builds, killing the same old predictable mobs, for the same old (but on very rare occasion decent) loot - OR - new, unique builds in random areas (some easy, some not-so-easy), for the sake of actually playing and not just grabbing loot? If you choose the former, enjoy your cookie-cutter builds. If you choose the latter, stop torturing yourself with cookie-cutter builds just because people say they're the best! (which I believe is what the OP is basically saying)

Gregslot · May 29, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Who cares what build you're running? If you're playing with friends and having fun, then that's the most important part.

Hell, I've run a bunch of cookie-cutter builds in DoA [you know, 1 OF Tank, 3 Nukers, 3 Monks, 1 BiP] and did City in 45 minutes on HM. It was fast. It was fun. Why? You played with the PEOPLE that made it fun. We'd screw up and have a laugh on vent, and the such, but for the most part we worked.

This argument is stupid.

This is true, if you are playing with friends and having fun doesnt matter what you are doing. But thats a glove that fits in every hand, dont you agree?
Doesnt matter where i am (GW, a bar, in my house, at your house), if we are with friends we eventually have some fun.

But you cant expect that other 11 people that dont know each other start beeing friends whenever they join a group.
Most likely everyone wants to have fun, but some of us dont even speak the same language, dont have the same humor. Well, you go the idea right?

Someone mentioned that some players dont see the game as i do. I know that he/she is right because some people dont mind playing only with monk and some people do. Its just a matter of perpective.

Ill be creating a thread later to discuss the build, some people seemed to be very interested in this idea

Njaiguni Blaze · May 29, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

I'll be creating a thread later to discuss the build, some people seemed to be very interested in this idea

Count me in, would love to try the Deep once. In a build that doesn't use the mindless, slow tank-wall-nuke tactic.

Zinger314 · May 29, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Now, what would you consider more fun (since this is a game, and should be solely about F-U-N): the same old builds, killing the same old predictable mobs, for the same old (but on very rare occasion decent) loot - OR - new, unique builds in random areas (some easy, some not-so-easy), for the sake of actually playing and not just grabbing loot? If you choose the former, enjoy your cookie-cutter builds. If you choose the latter, stop torturing yourself with cookie-cutter builds just because people say they're the best! (which I believe is what the OP is basically saying)

The way that Elite Missions are designed makes that impossible. Damage on casters hits for up to 200+. So unless you use Protective Spirit liberally, which would contradict the "anti-cookie cutter: philosophy, you need a centralized tank to manage damage.

If you approach The Deep or Urgoz the same way you approach the Realm of Torment, you will die. The best examples are in the first room of each mission; In Urgoz, you have to fight a 20+ enemy mob, and in The Deep, you have to split your party into 3 even groups of 4. They both require certain strategies, and are not carefree.

fenix · May 29, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Shelter, then just own stuff. Just have a couple damage wars, some caster damage, and it's gg. If you have GOOD monks, it isn't much of an issue, unless you have bad warriors/casters, and they aggro too much stuff.

DFrost · May 29, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

As for the ratio of time spent vs. loot acquired the Wiki builds may be the best and fastest way to do things. Still, the most fun I've had have been in groups consisting of more unusual class combinations. A week back we did the Sorrow's Furnace quests with 3 mesmers, 3 necros and 2 monks, I can say it was a lot more enjoyable than the old gear trick gimmick people used to run.

Cebe · May 29, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

And for the 10 seconds each one of those skills are on recharge you...?

=/ What does a nuker do whilst waiting for his meteor showers to recharge?

Spams Mind Blast

but seriously...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

And Njaiguni Blaze's "holier than thou" attitude isn't negative?

If it sounds negative to you, that's probably because "your sort" push the "non-cornforming" classes into a corner and force them to come out with such things. Also, on the topic of negative posts, who is it who comes out with about 2-3 "I don't like this" threads every week?

Further on topic, I am one for creating non cookie-cutter builds, and I usually play with henchmen and heroes, so that's fine...but on the odd occaision I play with humans and choose to use one of my own concoctions I get some pretty crazed responses...often involving a swift kick from the group without even asking if I can change my build or alter it in some way. An example of such was in AB. My necro got invited into a team, I was trying out a blood build, the wammo said "PING BUILD", which I did and...insta-kick...clearly they wanted an MM. Shortly after my kicking I found myself invited into another group who, politely, asked me to ping my build. I did, and they said "cool, whatever works for you". Oddly enough it did work well for me in the end and we played a few games before they had to leave. *imagines a time when everone might be that accomodating*

From time to time I've been in PuGs with players with horrific builds. I will offer advice on how they can improve them, but not force it upon them, and neither do I kick someone for just having, what I consider to be, a bad build. One class I do get frustrated with however, are elementalists, who clearly have never been introduced to Mr. Attunement and Mrs. Glyph. I can get a bit vocal sometimes...particularly when the inevitable "My energy is 4 of 105" comes along.

allience · May 29, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

i think the thread maker is trying to label his vision of fun to everyone.

i understand that some ppl enjoy spending twice the time on a mission by playing with different builds. i know that there are ppl who care more for the experience of something than the reward. but don't try to apply that notion to everyone.

for example if i were obliged to play that way, i'd just look for a different game. my idea of fun is efficiency. if i can do something in 1 hour for the same reward as doing it in 2, i'll have a lot of fun being efficient. i seriously enjoy getting something with the least amount of effort and many other ppl feel the same way too.

remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone.

Cebe · May 29, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone.

There is truth in that - I have a friend who enjoys farming the Underworld. To me that's mind numbingly, bang-your-head-off-a-desk, slow, painful boredom. I'm more of a "play the game" sort of person.

KTBFFH · May 29, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

My advice would be to find a decent alliance/guild, there are many about if you look hard enough.
It's very rare that I see someone told to run a specific build in my alliance, we have done a few Urgoz runs recently, one took 4-5 hours, the other 2-3 (i think, and we had a mesmer with us, oh-no!).
We'll have a basic plan down, and might ask if someone can incorporate a certain skill into their build if possible - I run a SS/death variant and it wasn't hard to squeeze in consume corpse for the bridge.
But when it comes to it it's nearly always a balanced build, and it's rare we don't complete our goal for the trip.

Not everyone plays this game for time spent vs in game reward, a lot of us play for time spent vs fun reward.
I'd much rather commit to a 5 hour trip I enjoy (even if there was a chance of no in-game reward) than to a 2-3 hour trip I didn't enjoy.

greenchylde · May 29, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Would you rather complete The Deep in 2 hours with a well-crafted group or complete the Deep in 5+ hours with a lackadascial group?

i'd rather be me and have fun with a fun group then play with a bunch of robots who run you through like your on a drill team. i thought this was a game?

Bryant Again · May 29, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

i think the thread maker is trying to label his vision of fun to everyone.

i understand that some ppl enjoy spending twice the time on a mission by playing with different builds. i know that there are ppl who care more for the experience of something than the reward. but don't try to apply that notion to everyone.

for example if i were obliged to play that way, i'd just look for a different game. my idea of fun is efficiency. if i can do something in 1 hour for the same reward as doing it in 2, i'll have a lot of fun being efficient. i seriously enjoy getting something with the least amount of effort and many other ppl feel the same way too.

remember there are different types of ppl and u can't say something is fun for everyone.

This post has been QFT'd by moi.

Ouchie · May 29, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

My two cents worth

Builds for the elites evolve all the time and yes do change. When I began playing Urgoz the build included one Nuker and many rangers b/p or trap (all R/mo) 2 necros 3-4monks.

Time has gone by and now 3-4 rangers are max out of 12 ~ some groups only take 1-2 and Splinter Rangers are being sought after

a Rit is used only 2 monks

Bips usually have an interesting 2nd Prof

I have seen people looking for Paragons

The Problem is once a build is being used and successful ~ people label it a cookie cutter.

If a group relys on wiki builds -exactly- odds are it will fail, or have one or two people yelling at eachother through the whole mission (Joy).

My monk uses Blessed Light in Urgoz not the "wanted" Elites such as HB(which she has). The Condition removal and hex removal comes in handy and makes her job much easier, especially since very rarely does anyone one have a hex remover in Urgoz. But Heal Party spaming is required in several areas and must be in the build.

An A/R critical barrager is an asset to the team too.

I personally would have no problem adding a mesmer or paragon to an Urgoz team, after all it is a team of 12 of which only 5-6 players are required professions.

IMHO Elite Missions are just a matter of knowing where to go and what is coming. A cookie cutter build will fail if it doesn't know which path to take, or where to stop for pop-ups, and a balanced team should make it through having a good strong leader with the knowledge of where to go, what to do and what to expect, provided the team listens of course.

rohara · May 29, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

there's some wiggle room for certain places though. like urgoz...taking along a couple oddballs doesn't really hurt anything. hell, i got a bunch of alliance people together to go to urgoz and i wasn't about to tell the warriors or mesmers they couldn't go. we had one warrior set himself up as a W/P party buffer (gfte, watch yourself, shields up, etc) and he was quite an asset. as long as the person synergizes (is that a word?) with what is already known to work well, there's no reason to be a snob about it.

reetkever · May 29, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Well, Urgoz and the Deep aren't as hard, but if you mean stuff like DoA, cookie cutter builds can't be avoided. If A-Net made monsters stronger instead of cheating, this could've been prevented, but against cheating monsters with annoying area effects, not many build options remain.

The problem with the Factions Elite missions, is that they take lots of time. People want to do the missions as fast as possible, and the better your skillset/weaponset is, the faster you can kill monsters.

lacasner · May 29, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Don't pug, that is the solution. But, this game is built around teamplay, so I don't know enough about people's guild situations to make a judgement call.

Ouchie · May 29, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Well, Urgoz and the Deep aren't as hard, but if you mean stuff like DoA, cookie cutter builds can't be avoided. If A-Net made monsters stronger instead of cheating, this could've been prevented, but against cheating monsters with annoying area effects, not many build options remain.

The problem with the Factions Elite missions, is that they take lots of time. People want to do the missions as fast as possible, and the better your skillset/weaponset is, the faster you can kill monsters.

OFF Topic
I always get a giggle when I hear the "Anet is cheating" - hubby said that at the begining of HM along with "they gave them like walkie talkies or something" lol. I always figured they can't cheat cause they make the rules

ON Topic
Urgoz and the Deep have just been around longer so more players know what to do making them seem easier. I do believe that any Prof. can do anywhere if they take the time to build against the area.

Corinthian · May 29, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

In a game like GW, where you are limited to select only 8 of dozens of skills, there will be and always has been ONE, UNIVERSAL, THE BEST BUILD available for each class. Thus there will be ONE, UNIVERSAL, THE BEST TEAM BUILD. Which will complete the task with least effort in least time.

Why oh why oh why should or would anyone bother to use anything else than the very best and fastest one available? For the sake of originality? For the sake of fun? Taking longer and being less effective than optimum rarely is fun or original.

Perkunas · May 29, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

It's ArenaNet's fault that the cookie-cutters exist, not the players'.

I tend to disagree here. People that have builds that work for them, post them all over every forum they can. Other people try these builds and adapt them to their style of play. These people begin to team up and find they need one more piece to the puzzle. These team builds are then posted. These 'builds' become the 'standards' for doing an area 'quickly and efficently'. Probably 80% of the people that play GW, don't have any idea, nor probably care that these forums exist. They are playing a game and research isn't part of the game. They have the 'build' that got them to where they are. It may not be the same one the 'Elites' use, but it was good enough to get them there. And if it is their first time there, they will learn what it takes for THEM to get thru there.

'Cookie-cutter' builds are not ANets fault, but the people that try to make me play like them.