Curse

manitoba1073 · Jun 02, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

I was given a suggestion and well Im passing it on to you guys here to discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

This post is probably going to scream "delete me!", but the thing to realize is that PvE "balance" is for the most part a joke. GW's skill set is simply too powerful and the monsters are too simple. That's why places like UW, one of the ultimate dungeons of the game, have been farmed bad by ridiculous builds like 55/SV.
PvE balance is easy. If monsters are too powerful after a skill tweak, you can just tweak their health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it. It tends to be made even easier by the fact that every fight is predictable, so there will always be some skill load-out that trumps it. Perhaps more importantly, there are numerous skills that only really bad players are affected by in PvP, but are the dominant factors in PvE balance if counter-balancing ever needs to be done. A good example would be Flashing Blades and Critical Defenses, which are of extremely questionable use in PvP, but are really the roots of Assassin viability in PvE.
PvE balance should be an afterthought, because it is EASY to just bolt PvE balance changes on top of whatever the PvP balance is at the time without conflict. If something is too powerful in PvE, nobody complains, because it just makes killing stuff easier. The reverse is not true. If an ability becomes too strong in PvP, it makes a mess of everything, and adding some overpowered counter to it is far from ideal

That PvE balance is so easy that if a skill is overpowered that anet should tweak there health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it.

Well what do you guys think?

ogre-mage · Jun 02, 2007, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Garbage. That's just somebody talking out of their asshole about an issue that has been brought up over and OVER again. PvE isn't 'easy' unless you're competent and skilled. PvP having ANY effect on pvE is bullcrap, and has needed to be fixed since the dawn of Tyrian time.

I mean, seriously. Was anyone online lately? How fair is it to have a chest running weekend if only Europe is going to have favor? Why should the damn HA infringe upon MY play? The PvE/PvP issue is rooted in more than just skill balance.

Dr Strangelove · Jun 02, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

PvE balance is secondary to PvE balance, like it or not. In PvP, teams willingly exploit the most overpowered skills, and use them to beat the crap out of other players. To keep the game fun for everyone in PvP, there need to be a large number of skill-intensive builds on a roughly equal playing field. That's a pretty tall order, especially when tiny advantages make you win. Whether anet does a good job of balancing is another story, but it's obvious they could do a lot worse if you look at most other games like this.

I don't think there's ever been a case of mobs in PvE being nerfed for being overpowered. In PvE, you always know exactly what you're facing, and can bring the counter to it. Secondly, mobs are stupid. They'll stand in AoE and attack through SS until they blow up. The only time PvE balance becomes an issue is really when players can chainsaw through things so easily that the game loses challenge completely. For instance, the gear trick was stupid, and made us all dumber for having used it.

Ogre Mage - Weren't you off boycotting the SR nerf or farming nerf or something?

Lord Mendes · Jun 02, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

That PvE balance is so easy that if a skill is overpowered that anet should tweak there health points, or add or remove a couple spawns, and that's it.

Well what do you guys think?

I think you misinterpreted his post.
He is saying that skills are the way they are and are tweaked according to PvP (which is entirely true), and that if these skills are made so powerful that mobs are invincible the number of mobs or spawns is modified accordingly. This usually happens before the game is even released (PvE areas are tested and marked too easy/hard and changed accordingly) and is not really that hard to do.

Now when people bring up "PvE balance vs mobs" I really don't know what to think. This type of balance will never exist due to the nature of the game: the ai is predictable, you know the ai's skill bar, and you have the option to run whatever skills and templates you want under the basic restrictions (party size, professions, etc).
Sure it might be hard at times but that has nothing to do with balance at all.

PvP balance is the same as PvE balance, which is the balance between classes and how they interact.

I'm pretty sure this shouldn't be offensive to anyone, but this is riverside after all, so flame away!

fenix · Jun 02, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Basically, what he's saying, is that in PvE, if something becomes imba, or becomes super weak because of a balance, Anet can change the number of that monster so that the problem isn't that bad. Also, if skills are nerfed that PvErs use a lot, then there are always alternatives. Normally balances don't completely ruin PvE builds, unless they were intended to, or there wasn't any other option.

Miral · Jun 02, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

im wondering if the majority of guildwars pvp people will move to fury, which is entirely pvp with a setup similar to guild wars with a few unreal tournament elements added in (like powerups placed around the map), once it is released... hopefully they will, and the pvp balance affecting pve issue can just go away...

upier · Jun 02, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

I play PvE only.
The dude has a point. It is easy.
Well it SHOULD be easy!
But the lovely A.net is too bloody lazy to think of the balance in the greater sense.
Step 1:
You balance skills for PvP.

and Step 2 SHOULD be:
2. You balance PvE FOR the new skills.

Something like 400+ AoE damage [skill]Spirit Rift[/skill] vs. a bunch of hench who don't move out of it IS insane - especially if one calls the target and the first one to run in are the monkies and eles - while that lovely Devona takes 5 for a ciggy break first!
And that is unbalanced! And it should get fixed! And like the dude said - it IS easy!
Unless you're lazy!

ensoriki · Jun 02, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Yizo...that stupid afflicted bastard

messes people up all the timE!

and with retarded hench AI your likely to have to solo the mission 0_o

Kakumei · Jun 02, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre-mage

I mean, seriously. Was anyone online lately? How fair is it to have a chest running weekend if only Europe is going to have favor? Why should the damn HA infringe upon MY play?

What does this have to do with anything? Are you only chestrunning in the Fissure or something?

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Meh, they need to fix Ele/Rit bosses, not the skills. When it gets to the stage that a single skill can wipe 8 people in 1 shot things are starting to get lame, not hard. I'm really sick of Anets "Hard = 4x damage" approach to PvE.

Quote:

He is saying that skills are the way they are and are tweaked according to PvP (which is entirely true), and that if these skills are made so powerful that mobs are invincible the number of mobs or spawns is modified accordingly. This usually happens before the game is even released (PvE areas are tested and marked too easy/hard and changed accordingly) and is not really that hard to do.

While you have a point... how long did it take them to modify the spawns in the Realm of Torment? Domain of Fear was just stupid. when you can get spiked by eles spamming Deep Freeze and Mind Freeze and get completely wiped something needs tweeking and it taken them until 1 month to do something about it.

Lord Mendes · Jun 02, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

While you have a point... how long did it take them to modify the spawns in the Realm of Torment? Domain of Fear was just stupid. when you can get spiked by eles spamming Deep Freeze and Mind Freeze and get completely wiped something needs tweeking and it taken them until 1 month to do something about it.

Whether Anet are doing it or how often they are is a different subject altogether.
Point being, fixing mob spawns in PvE is an easier way to "nerf" something if it proves too powerful, much more practical than changing the skills themselves.
Is sandstorm overpowered on it's own? Not necessarily. Is it overpowered on the drought against hench that ball up? No doubt.
The problem isn't Sandstorm, it's the boss, and the boss should be changed accordingly.
I don't see how someone could be having trouble comprehending this, and this is hardly worth a thread.

I don't know whether this is relevant (probably not), but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by guildwars.com

Updated some creatures so that they no longer have two elite skills in Hard Mode.

LifeInfusion · Jun 02, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

PvE balance is absolutely backseat to PvP balance. I agree with the person the OP quoted.

No matter what the instance, the only reason that PvE is messed up by PvP balance is because mobs have 4x damage or crazy environmental effects that hurt players but not the mobs (such as Sandstorm bosses with 2x damage for all earth damage). In such a case, the problem is not the balance in PvP but the PvE environment. Patrols that are clumped, for example.

Besides, PvP affecting PvE balance wouldn't be bad. It would make all the classes more even. The only exception I can think of is Spiritual Pain.

As for paragons, they got hit bad, but that didn't make them useless in PvE. People just overreacted.

JoeKnowMo · Jun 02, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

PvE balance and PvP balance are two different beasts.

PvP balance is mostly about nerfing/buffing skills and should take a front-seat to balancing skills for PvE.

PvE balance is about professions being similar in power/value to the team and about monster difficulty being reasonable. The latter is easy enough but the former is far more challenging and not easily solved by the suggestions in the OP.

One of the inherent dilemmas with balancing is that PvP thrives on balance (less skills/profs conducive to greater balance) while PvE thrives on variety (more skills, builds, professions, the better).

Add in the difference in skill level between the two playerbases, the different levels of tolerance for losing/death, and the possibility of customizing your entire team's skillbars in PvP and the near impossibility of doing so in PvE and it gets even more difficult to simultaneously balance both sides effectively.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 02, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre-mage

PvE isn't 'easy' unless you're competent and skilled.

Genious, if you're skilled the game is easy, if you suck it's hard. My hat off to you, my wise friend! <_<

I agree with Riotgear. Balance is pretty useless in PvE, since the AI is so predictable in every fight, and the right skillbars for each location will let you blow through the area without much difficulty. PvP balance is where the focus should be.

adderworks · Jun 03, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

im wondering if the majority of guildwars pvp people will move to fury, which is entirely pvp with a setup similar to guild wars with a few unreal tournament elements added in (like powerups placed around the map), once it is released... hopefully they will, and the pvp balance affecting pve issue can just go away...

The un-spoken comment there is that the PVPers will go away which suits me just fine. Their abuse of the SR made the Devs nerf SR, after all. Who knows, the Devs might fix it if they lose the PVPers.

In any case the theory is better than the normal ANET methodology for PVE changes. It speaks to areas as unique areas instead of global nerfs to all maps.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jun 03, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

The un-spoken comment there is that the PVPers will go away which suits me just fine. Their abuse of the SR made the Devs nerf SR, after all. Who knows, the Devs might fix it if they lose the PVPers.

In any case the theory is better than the normal ANET methodology for PVE changes. It speaks to areas as unique areas instead of global nerfs to all maps.

I think most PvP'ers will agree with me that the new change to SR was extremely useless. They tried to use a fancy change with their little timer, which effected PvE, when ALL they had to do is make spirits NOT effect SR. Thats it. Thats All. Minions should effect SR, SR should always run, no BS timer. The ONLY problem anyone ever had with SR was that Unlimited energy necros with spirit spam RUINED it. So please, dont blame the pvp community for Anet's blunders.

Yichi · Jun 03, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

hopefully they will, and the pvp balance affecting pve issue can just go away...

Spoken from someone who truly knows nothing about the games mechanics or design. Even if the majority of PVP players left for fury when it comes out, it still will NEVER change the fact that as long as GW1 is around, it will always be balanced around PVP and those balances will ultimately affect PVE...

Divinus Stella · Jun 03, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

I think balance can be achieved with mutual benefit.

The 2 main balance issues in HA are Paragons and Ritualists.
Do paragons ever tank in PvE? Wouldnt it be better to give them 60AL and give them more damage/party buff role so they could actually have a use in PvE rather than being used occasionally in set builds just for one or two skills.

Same with rit damage skills, damage ritualists are pointless in PvE, they are only really used by new/clueless players, taking 20dmg off each skill wouldnt hurt anyone in PvE.

Lord Mendes · Jun 03, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

The un-spoken comment there is that the PVPers will go away which suits me just fine.

Everybody's happy

(except you when you realize that Anet will still value PvP balance more than whining 12 year olds)

Quote:

Originally Posted by adderworks

Their abuse of the SR made the Devs nerf SR, after all. Who knows, the Devs might fix it if they lose the PVPers.

Bulldozing through PvE with a necro with the equivalent of 10 extra energy regen from soul reaping is hardly abusing soul reaping, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzer

I think most PvP'ers will agree with me that the new change to SR was extremely useless. They tried to use a fancy change with their little timer, which effected PvE,

Maybe they wanted it to affect PvE because it was a mindless and overpowered attribute?

PvE balance is almost an oxymoron and will never be important in the grand scheme of things, where as PvP depends entirely on balance.

cthulhu reborn · Jun 03, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

I think PvP'ers don't realise how much spike damage you can take from level 28 ele's...lowering health is a no go in that sense.

Besides, since hard mode it is a bit of a moot point. Normal mode is supposed to be relatively easy for casual and non grind players. Hard mode is more challenging but not to everybody's liking. There will always be people who want it even more difficult but there's got to be a limit somewhere.

There is an issue that I have with solo builds. They are overpowered in my view but some people love it. So I simply don't. In the end this game is not WoW where items rule the game and real money is spent in large amounts on such items. If you are upset about FoW costing 800k instead of 1.5million then that's just too bad.

PvP and PvE are just not the same and PvE-only skills can help. If you don't like em don't use em...as simple as that. If you want a challenge, go out with 6 instead of 8. I mean there is plenty you can do yourself to get more challenge if you need it.