Curse

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

actually due to minions providing full SR benefit on death, MM isn't so bad compared to some other builds. though the timer is still completely stupid. thats why I advocate removing the timer and making 0 energy from miniions and spirits, make it balanced all around and fun for all.

Necros would still be getting huge frickin' heap loads of energy back in PvE, so we'd have to decide on something to do about that. I like the proposed pip gen idea, so far it's like the only thing that sounds reasonable.

icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Necros would still be getting huge frickin' heap loads of energy back in PvE, so we'd have to decide on something to do about that. I like the proposed pip gen idea, so far it's like the only thing that sounds reasonable.

We'll never know because I doubt ANET will throw us a bone on it, but I would think taking the spirit wording from the "leaked" change and adding minions to it would dramatically effect necro energy gains. Removing the 3 in 15 part of course.

Spirits may not play a huge role in PvE as far as extra energy gained but minions or pets definitely do. B/P would be hurt...not crippled but hurt and in the other thread this particular team build has been referred to as the PvE counterpart to Spirit Spammers countless times at this point.

Taala · Jun 10, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Yeah.... umm, I was referring to before the SR nerf - the MM nerf was long enough ago that I thought it was obvious I was talking about after that. I guess not. I'm sorry, I'll try to be a little more clear to the hard-of-understanding among us.

Please... I was talking about the damage. Unless I have overlooked bone fiend nerf, a necromancer with ten bone fiends back then is equally powerful damagewise to a necromancer with ten bone fiends today.

Perhaps I can explain it in private messages if it's still too hard to understand.

arcanemacabre · Jun 10, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taala

Please... I was talking about the damage. Unless I have overlooked bone fiend nerf, a necromancer with ten bone fiends back then is equally powerful damagewise to a necromancer with ten bone fiends today.

Perhaps I can explain it in private messages if it's still too hard to understand.

So wait, are you saying you purposely limited yourself to only 10 bone fiends back when you could have unlimited? Maybe you should message me, that makes no sense.

WildmouseX · Jun 10, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

As to the other professions' Primary attributes (in terms of energy, since that's what we were discussing.)

Mesmer: Fast Casting only increases the rate it will go through energy in a given time frame.

Elementalist: Assuming we go with a single-element build, you will have a lot of energy to deal with (my Fire Nuker tends to have about 93 energy). Elementalists also have a larger number of 25-energy skills compared to Necromancers AND have to deal with Exhaustion. Though, I find myself constantly using at least 2 energy management skills to maintain any bit of continuity.

Monks: Divine Favor doesn't necessarily apply to energy directly, but it does offset it since you don't need to cast as often if you heal for more. Monks tend to be more reactionary-based (with few Prot-builds aside.) You only work if there is a problem. Often enough, the only E-management I need to run on my Monk is Channeling. The only times I'm pressed for energy is if I get hit with a lot of E-denial, or the other monk (in large parties where people think 2 are required) gets into lots of trouble due to party over-aggro, lack of abilities, or bad luck.

Ritualist: With the possible update to Weapon Spells via Spawning Power, it will reduce the amount of spells needing to be re-applied. Also, if you run a Rt/N build you need to raise minions less if they have more life (negligible if you are an Rt/N Minion Bomber.) The recharge on spirits tends to exclude it from a health-based conversation on creations.

If I get a few more things out of the way today (and my eyes stop crossing!

) I might give this another long post based upon others comments. Other than that... my fingers and eyes need a rest.

the argument about other classes, isn't in terms of energy (on our side anyway), it's in terms of the fact that none of them have to carry skills to do what their primary attribute is supose to do... mesmurs don't have to bring skills to cast faster; monks don't have to bring skills to make their heals heal more; ele's don't have to bring a skill to make their E-bar bigger..

but because everyone who plays those classes have to carry e-managment skills because their primary attributes do other passive things, they get the right to run around hollering that the necro is automaticly over powered because that's what our primary does for us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Edit:

I agree with you completely. The reason I stated it, was WildmouseX made the claim that "again you are ignoreing the fact that many, in fact most of the necros usefull skills are 15-25e" and that s/he burns through up to 61 energy in five seconds or less (and that the energy due to SR: 59 on average in 15 seconds, eludes to "so wooptie do we gain enough energy to throw 2 more skills.") Ultimately, that was the reason for my long post, simply refuting that claim.

first off, i'm not the one claiming 61 energy, you are - and yes, i supose i could get rid of all my attribute runes, and viggors, and stuff that is usefull and just stack up on attunes and radiant insigs - then ok i can see 61 energy... but guess what, I (and most anyone who is going to play the necro competently) am going to buff the attribute my skills are in, i'm going to buff my SR, and i'm going to wear a vigor. and make a set of armor that helps me fill my role, instead of armor that lets me brag about how much energy i have.

secondly, you're 59 energy on average 15 seconds guestimation, is based on the false 15 second discription update, that was never implimented, and deleated quickly.... so that's -20 from your precious calulations, putting us back to 39.

and lastly, you're the one that assumed there was spaming going on. there's a difference between stacking curse's and spaming... stacking is where you pile several curses on a target, so the one that's doing the most damage won't get removed - spaming is what el's do with searing flames.

if as a hexer (either necro or mesmur), you are not casting 2-4 spells right in a row at the start of a fight, then you're not doing your job properly. what's the point of putting a curse on a target, if you're just going to leave it there out in the open for the first monk, mes, or necro that comes along to remove from their pal?

here's my curse build

[skill]channeling[/skill][skill]Spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]reckless haste[/skill][skill]accumulated pain[/skill][skill]epidemic[/skill][skill]desecrate enchantments[/skill][skill]defile enchantments[/skill]

that's not a spam build, in fact the only skill that can be remotely considered to be spamible is epidemic.

i use to carry a second cover hex before the nerf, but had to get rid of it for channeling. 5e for channeling at the start of the fight, 15 for SS, 10 for reckless haste... there's 30e out of my 51 energy pool right there. AP +epidemic for a little condition spreading is another 15, efectively spending all the energy that channeling and regular energy regen builds up... then i find someone with a healing enchant on them and fire off the two AoE desicrates for my final 20 E..... this, combined with the rest of the group doing their jobs, usually drops 3-5 monsters in PvE.

- before the nerf, i'd get enough energy to throw SS (and maybe A.P. if my mes also hexed the guy i'm targeting) when they finaly got done rechargeing, and i'd get my bar filled at the end of the fight. after the nerf i'm luckey if i can throw SS a second time, and have to make everyone wait while my bar fills up when we're done. - - it's not a spam build, i'm not out there trying to be super energy spam man. all of the 15-25 recharge times make sure of that. - it's a normal hexing build with a couple of AoE enchant counters.

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icymanipulator · Jun 10, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I actually like that build a lot.

I'm not sure how high you are running Illusion (Inspiration could really be set to 3 or 4 and channeling would work just fine). I would recommend you replace the second DE with probably Images of Remorse which is a cheap spammable Illusion line degen hex. You won't get the area spike from the second DE but you are also free to pepper more single targets at will instead of waiting for a painfully slow skill recharge.

Edit: Something else I cycle into my N/Me is Phantom Pain, which could also fill the slot for Accumulated Pain or replace a DE. Instead of relying on hexes it would automatically deep wound after 10 seconds on top of degen which is always nice. I'm also a big fan of Conjure Phantasm but it seems like your playstyle is spiking and mine is degen.

Great build though and I think I am actually going to add that to the ones I use!

Lord Sojar · Jun 10, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Oh yeh.... well i have hax and I have 50 pts in each attribute and have all attributes. When I use Unnatural signet, you just die instantly. Oh, and now it casts rly rly fast. Like.. as in instantly. Sucks to be you.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Necros would still be getting huge frickin' heap loads of energy back in PvE, so we'd have to decide on something to do about that. I like the proposed pip gen idea, so far it's like the only thing that sounds reasonable.

eh not really. keep in mind necros have a relatively small energy pool compared to elementalists and a lot of monks, so a lot of the "huge frickin' heap loads of energy" would just go to waste.... 50 energy is still two 25e spells, unless a few things die in the time it takes to cast the second spell. and with minion energy gain removed, that means you only gain from what you or your team kills. believe it or not that will balance it out a lot more than you may think.
Now I'm not completely against a pip system, but due to the way pips work it would also need some raw gain as well, as someone else suggested.
but to be honest, direct gain with no timer and no gain from minions or spirits seems the most natural way to do it, the most lore-fitting way, and the way that can best keep it simple and fun. hey, can even nerf it against undead if you reeeeally want to nerf it more. maybe a description that reads "For every point in soul reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a living creature dies around you."

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Oh yeh.... well i have hax and I have 50 pts in each attribute and have all attributes. When I use Unnatural signet, you just die instantly. Oh, and now it casts rly rly fast. Like.. as in instantly. Sucks to be you.

uhhh ok.... sounds like you're a hard mode monster >.<

WildmouseX · Jun 10, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

I actually like that build a lot.

I'm not sure how high you are running Illusion (Inspiration could really be set to 3 or 4 and channeling would work just fine). I would recommend you replace the second DE with probably Images of Remorse which is a cheap spammable Illusion line degen hex. You won't get the area spike from the second DE but you are also free to pepper more single targets at will instead of waiting for a painfully slow skill recharge.

Edit: Something else I cycle into my N/Me is Phantom Pain, which could also fill the slot for Accumulated Pain or replace a DE. Instead of relying on hexes it would automatically deep wound after 10 seconds on top of degen which is always nice. I'm also a big fan of Conjure Phantasm but it seems like your playstyle is spiking and mine is degen.

Great build though and I think I am actually going to add that to the ones I use!

I use to carry remorse instead of the extra DE, but it was just too spamy and i wouldn't have energy when i had a juicey target to use DE on. same with phantasm. usually i only play curse with guildies, which usually already has 2 degen/interupt mes's, so i changed to help cover AoE spikes.

the accumulated pain + epidemic is real helpfull in keeping the AI monks busy so they don't heal themselves while the rest of my team pounds on em - it also encurage's them to throw a few healing enchants so i can hammer out my DE's.

my attributes are curses 16 (12 +1 +3), illusion 10, inspiration 6, and curses 9 (6 +3)... i use to have SR at 13 with the superior SR; but since the nerf this has been a better use of points. - over all it's a realy fun build, but post nerf you should to expect to be wanding it the last half of the fight.

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Plague · Jun 10, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I'd like to point out that some of my Necromancer builds don't use any Soul Reaping points at all. They work fine.

Saying "My Necro is fine after the update, that means it's okay," is... stupid. Not every build requires the use of your primary attribute. I can easily play my Minion Master build without using Soul Reaping. Does that mean Soul Reaping is fixed? Does that mean I'm an elite player? No, it means nothing.

Get over it.

That said, Soul Reaping is broken. And it has nothing to do with whether or not your Necromancer is aching for energy or not. Moving on.

upier · Jun 10, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

Lots of people who religiously play MM's have had to use Consume Corpse as an added buffer. There is even a very well done guide by Carinae on the benefits of the skill as far as barred energy management. This tells me there are particular builds or circumstances where even MM's are still having problems.

Well we got SS dropped to 10e which is a small victory. I would love to see FoC fixed but due to past abuses I don't see that happening. Blood is not quite as bad off as curses are but its still not as good as it was. Death is the obvious winner of the pack, no question. If Jagged Bones went to pre-nerf ability then Death would be the absolute winner.

Thats a victory for mediocrity.
It is A.nets was of catering for bad caster players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by icymanipulator

Heres a ridiculously common necro build for you compared to a ridiculously common monk build...tell me if you can figure out the differences...

N/Me SS Nuker

Awaken the Blood 10e/ 1sec/ 45sec
Arcane Echo 15e/ 2sec/ 30sec
Spiteful Spirit 10e/ 2sec/ 10sec
Reckless Haste 15e/ 2sec/ 25sec
Enfeebling Blood 10e/ 2sec/ 5sec
Spinal Shivers 10e/ 2sec/ 15sec
Blood Ritual 10e/ 2sec/ 2sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Average 11.5e/ 2sec/ 19sec)

Mo/E ZB

Reversal of Fortune 5e/ 1/4sec/ 2sec
Dismiss Condition 5e/ 3/4sec/ 3sec
Zealous Benediction 10e/ 3/4sec/ 4sec
Protective Spirit 10e/ 1/4sec/ 5sec
Glyph of Lesser Energy 5e/ 1sec/ 30sec
Aegis 15e/ 2sec/ 30sec
Holy Veil 5e/ 1sec/ 12sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Average 8e/ 1sec/ 12sec)

I even gave you a more "fair" monk build with 2x 30 second recharge times and just look at those averages! You are honestly going to sit there and claim there is no necromancer "tax"?

This also says nothing for the fact that only 2 of the necro spells are actually spammable Enfeebling Blood and Blood Ritual...and there is no reason to spam them. That compared with at least 4 the monk can and will be spamming during the same time frame.

I just want to make sure you understand we have had this argument in the other thread already and it got nowhere.

Edit: Put rez sig on ZB to make it a 7 to 7 comparison rather than 7 to 8.

The difference?
Its "one build just plainly sucks and the other one is pretty darn good", right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

as some one who plays all classes, I see that as more of a grass is always greener scenario. theres times necros wish they had 100% half cast time instead. theres times necros wish they had more than double their energy pool instead of regen. theres times necros wish they had health gain whenever an enchantment ends. theres times necros wish they had half cost on all skills. no matter what class you play, there is always going to be something another class can do that you can't, and something you can do that another class can't. necros can keep up a minion army. elementalists can nuke nuke nuke and not have to worry as much about exhaustion or DP. healers can single-handedly keep a whole group alive with 5e spells.
yknow, my monk actually had to worry about energy less than my necro did. does that mean monks are overpowered, since the only reason people say necros are overpowered is because they didn't have to worry about energy?

yep the monks ARE overpowered. i dont really like that fact BUT since we only have 2 classes that enable the fast pace of GW - i call it the necessary evil.
you WISH you had those primaries - but in pve they really don't do as much for a caster as SR. ES can be duplicated with -1 e-regen items while FC is a neat gimmick and is really easy to get used to but once again - it really doesn't do nearly as much for a caster as SR.
and you can actually test that yourself - load up your mesmer/ele builds ON your necro and they WILL work!
but sadly - the other way around:
either doesn't work or has serious issues!
seriously - a necro will nuke as good an ele - the only difference is the fact that one can't use runes BUT in a age when players will rather pick added hp instead of those +3 damage - they are becoming less and less important!
and wasnt the huge problem of necros the fact that pvp abused HB with high SR for doing things that actually offered an alternative to a monky?

and no - necros aren't overpowered because of practically not having to worry about e-management (heck i use SoLS as SELF HEAL primarily!) but because the skills that are available to them are REALLY good!
curse are the best pve hexes, minions are just a class of their own for the most part of the game and its only blood that has some issues because of the way its designed.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 10, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

I can easily play my Minion Master build without using Soul Reaping.

Oh please tell us how (without depending on another character to constantly use BiP or BR on you).

As for changing SR just look at the "Soul Reaping Changes" poll, 42.22% : Soul Reaping should give no Energy from spirits, but work as it used to. The next highest preference is at 13.90%.

Miral · Jun 10, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Oh please tell us how (without depending on another character to constantly use BiP or BR on you).

As for changing SR just look at the "Soul Reaping Changes" poll, 42.22% : Soul Reaping should give no Energy from spirits, but work as it used to. The next highest preference is at 13.90%.

im not sure how he does it, but a mesmer secondary and a couple inspiration skills can provide more energy management than soul reaping, and its a lot more reliable now that SR is on a timer... ether signet and an appropriate elemental mantra can work wonders. kinda funny that a mesmer secondary attribute works better for energy management than the main energy management primary that does absolutely nothing but energy management...

Lord Sojar · Jun 10, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

uhhh ok.... sounds like you're a hard mode monster >.<

Surprise! I am! And I am coming to a Halls or GvG match near you sooN!

UPDATE: Sunday, June 10th, 2007
Added hard mode level 45 monsters named Rahja the Thief into GvG battles as well as Hall of Heroes battles. We thought this would make things more interesting and help PvE and PvP interact a bit more. Good luck players! <3 ANET.

WildmouseX · Jun 10, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

kinda funny that a mesmer secondary attribute works better for energy management than the main energy management primary that does absolutely nothing but energy management...

what you call funny, is what the rest of us have been calling frustrating for 2 months now. if players can see this, how come the dev's can't seem to figure it out? my primary attribute should be more helpfull to me then useing skills from my secondary class. no other class is being forced to supliment their primary like this.

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around · Jun 10, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

As for changing SR just look at the "Soul Reaping Changes" poll, 42.22% : Soul Reaping should give no Energy from spirits, but work as it used to. The next highest preference is at 13.90%.
As for changing SR just look at the "Soul Reaping Changes" poll, 42.22% : Soul Reaping should give no Energy from spirits, but work as it used to. The next highest preference is at 13.90%.

Ah, yes.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Which one do you think that is?

Does-it-Matter · Jun 10, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

the argument about other classes, isn't in terms of energy (on our side anyway), it's in terms of the fact that none of them have to carry skills to do what their primary attribute is supose to do... mesmurs don't have to bring skills to cast faster; monks don't have to bring skills to make their heals heal more; ele's don't have to bring a skill to make their E-bar bigger..

And Necros don't have to bring skills to gain energy when spirits die (if we're continuing the trend of mincing words) or energy management skills in general. It is a choice, after all. Soul Reaping isn't meant to make Necromancers free of energy management concerns, it's there to make it a lot easier. Divine Favor doesn't make a Monk free to not have to use skills that give health (Smiters asside, of course.)

Quote:

but because everyone who plays those classes have to carry e-managment skills because their primary attributes do other passive things, they get the right to run around hollering that the necro is automaticly over powered because that's what our primary does for us?

You don't HAVE to bring energy management skills. That is the nice thing about Guild Wars, no one skill is required. You just have to then realize you can't constantly burn through energy. (My monk for instance, as I said before, doesn't not need e-management skills except for PvP or "worse case scenario" PvE situations.)

Quote:

first off, i'm not the one claiming 61 energy, you are

Indeed, I listed an example before.

Quote:

i supose i could get rid of all my attribute runes, and viggors, and stuff that is usefull and just stack up on attunes and radiant insigs - then ok i can see 61 energy...

You might want to double check how I listed it. 2-3 Attunement runes. That allows for your Superior Rune, a Minor Rune and a Vigor Rune (Thought that results in a total energy of 59, as I said prior.)

Quote:

but guess what, I (and most anyone who is going to play the necro competently) am going to buff the attribute my skills are in, i'm going to buff my SR, and i'm going to wear a vigor. and make a set of armor that helps me fill my role, instead of armor that lets me brag about how much energy i have.

Well, at least you are trying to discredit SOMETHING.

Seriously though, as I said, you still get access to your Superior/Minor/Vigor slots.

And that would be a high energy load out. Typically I will switch the leggings and chest insignias for armor (with the off-hand having an armor as well to push to 75) This results in 54-56 energy for more "general" situations.

Quote:

secondly, you're 59 energy on average 15 seconds guestimation, is based on the false 15 second discription update, that was never implimented, and deleated quickly.... so that's -20 from your precious calulations, putting us back to 39.

Well, considering the 15 second SR change is what started this thread, and what was fiercely debated, that is what I talked about. If I wanted to talk about SR in general, Countesscorpula has a very huge thread already in action.

But, if you wish to speak of more current matters (and hopefully this doesn't derail the thread) We're looking at 19.66 energy every 5 seconds (~6.66 energy from the Pips, 13 from a person running a Curse/Blood/Death only build (adjust to slightly less if running multiple)) - which over a 15 second span is still 59 energy.

Quote:

and lastly, you're the one that assumed there was spaming going on.

Well, I was attempting to find a method in which someone burns through a lot of 54-61 energy in under five seconds with little to no other details provided to me.

Going with GuildWiki's definition of Spamming, which refers to low energy spells being cast frequently, so that is why I referred to high energy spells when I stated it (and several spells as well.) If my use of the definition caused a confusion, allow me to clarify, that my intention was to define using several skills in a short period of time (similar to how an assassin quickly runs through a combo.)

Quote:

there's a difference between stacking curse's and spaming... stacking is where you pile several curses on a target, so the one that's doing the most damage won't get removed - spaming is what el's do with searing flames.

With the definition I was going on, they are essentially two sides of the same coin.

Quote:

if as a hexer (either necro or mesmur), you are not casting 2-4 spells right in a row at the start of a fight, then you're not doing your job properly. what's the point of putting a curse on a target, if you're just going to leave it there out in the open for the first monk, mes, or necro that comes along to remove from their pal?

Very correct.

Quote:

here's my curse build

[skill]channeling[/skill][skill]Spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]reckless haste[/skill][skill]accumulated pain[/skill][skill]epidemic[/skill][skill]desecrate enchantments[/skill][skill]defile enchantments[/skill]

that's not a spam build, in fact the only skill that can be remotely considered to be spamible is epidemic.

We were running on two similar yet different definitions of the word. But as to your build in general, I want to note one thing, that you have no 15+ energy skills (since SS has not been updated to show it's 10 energy cost) although you did state earlier how "many, if not most" of the good Necro spells are within that high-end range of energy.

Quote:

i use to carry a second cover hex before the nerf, but had to get rid of it for channeling. 5e for channeling at the start of the fight, 15 for SS, 10 for reckless haste... there's 30e out of my 51 energy pool right there. AP +epidemic for a little condition spreading is another 15, efectively spending all the energy that channeling and regular energy regen builds up... then i find someone with a healing enchant on them and fire off the two AoE desicrates for my final 20 E..... this, combined with the rest of the group doing their jobs, usually drops 3-5 monsters in PvE.

First of all, remember SS only costs 10 energy now. So for your example you use 25 energy in a burst sense (I'll use that word now instead of spam to avoid confusion), roughly half your energy. This takes 5 seconds, chances are nothing is going to die in this time aside from minions who were already going to die or maybe a nature spirit (So 6.66 energy gained, with perhaps a hit of Soul Reaping.)

-Next you spend roughly 2 more seconds with your Deep Wound spreader (nice combo, btw.) ~2.66 energy with perhaps a hit of SR.

-I'm assuming then, while waiting for SS to recharge you repeatedly cast your two Desecrate Enchantment versions while continuing to use Epidemic to unsure everyone still has Deep Wound on them. (Let's say roughly another 5 seconds, so ~6.66 energy plus perhaps a SR hit.)

One run through of your build costs 60 energy over a rough 15 second period of time. Let's assume that your Necro has at least two foes in the area (the target, if no one else, and who else you'd be spreading the condition with) so that's 12 additional energy.

So in the 15 seconds you've spent running through your build once, you've spent 60 energy and gained 28 energy plus up to 3x whatever your SR was at (SR of 11 would let you break even.) If there are more foes in the area, you've gained even more.

That is of course theoretical. We're not taking into effect any E-denial, dazed, interrupts, etc.

Personal, I think that's a very viable build and I don't see how either version of the SR change would affect it any more than any other Necro (which is the point of the interval gain, one is lead to believe.) This is just your contribution, assuming there are 5-6 others on the team also damaging the monsters in the mob. So, if the monsters don't drop because of you, then perhaps a combined effort drops them. Or perhaps, you have to wait a few seconds until they die, upon which you can start again. Then again, if things aren't dying, it doesn't matter what version of SR we're talking about.

Quote:

- before the nerf, i'd get enough energy to throw SS (and maybe A.P. if my mes also hexed the guy i'm targeting) when they finaly got done rechargeing, and i'd get my bar filled at the end of the fight. after the nerf i'm luckey if i can throw SS a second time, and have to make everyone wait while my bar fills up when we're done. - - it's not a spam build, i'm not out there trying to be super energy spam man. all of the 15-25 recharge times make sure of that. - it's a normal hexing build with a couple of AoE enchant counters.

Agreed, though I don't really see that you are unable to use SS again when it recharges. Going with the model I show, as long as you take into account there may be set backs, you'll have the energy (again not including factors like Dazed, E-denial, etc. as those will affect any and everyone.)

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

eh not really. keep in mind necros have a relatively small energy pool compared to elementalists and a lot of monks, so a lot of the "huge frickin' heap loads of energy" would just go to waste....

Only if your skillbar was wasteful. Necro spells are pretty hefty in cost, and since you don't have to devote any slots for e-management you can just go crazy.

Here's how pre Soul-Reaping nerf was, to help your grasp of it. Notice that this is energy gain NOT from minions or spirits:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

The energy gains from pre-nerf soul reaping can be calculated by providing accurate enough examples and taking averages based on how fast you kill something.
Per example, it used to take me about 25 seconds to kill a mob of 6 in mid-level areas, and if I had 10 in soul reaping I gained an average of 7 extra pips of energy regen, without any controlled deaths (other than the monsters I was killing). So in 25 seconds I could spam a maximum of about 92 energy and still come out with full energy (if timed perfectly, but that's not going to happen) as opposed to 40 energy on every other caster.
This alone proves how pre-nerf soul reaping was insane in PvE just by triggering mob kills, and why some limit had to be put on it. If you don't think it had to be limited, then please provide a valid explanation. I have read most the posts in this thread (sad, I know) and I have yet to see a valid argument telling me why pre-nerf soul reaping wasn't overpowered.

Cacheelma · Jun 10, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

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