Curse

WildmouseX · Jun 09, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Yes, SR was reduced, but it would appear just about every build can still be run with minor changes... so where is the problem?

there are two key problems

1) under the 5 second rule, there are many times where the necro get's denied energy all together. for a quick example, a ranger spirit dies right as battle it begining and the necro "gains" energy while his bar is full - the group then drops 3-4 of the mob in 5 seconds, leaveing the necro with 0 energy to fight the last 1 or 2 baddies that are left.

2)the necro's primary attribute is energy replacement... the Monk isn't required to bring skills just to get the extra healing from devine favor. the Mes isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of fast casting. the El isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of energy storage. - why the hell should we be forced to carry skills to get the benifit of soul reaping?

christopher reeves could still function after he was nerfed too, you think he didn't have any problems with the way he functioned from that point on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Can someone comprehensively summarize all of the changes? All I can find in the 14 pages of this thread are piecemeal bits of information (i.e. the new sunspear skill, a summary of the mesmer skill changes and whether they've been repealed, etc.).

It would be awesome if the OP or mods could edit the first post to allow posters to avoid reading 14 pages of information to get an update.

;(

there was no actual changes, for whatever reason discriptions were changed with the last update - we all got in an uproar because they were more retarded then licking an electified flag pole in winter. - A-net said woops and removed the discriptions.

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Leonidas2 · Jun 09, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

This reminds me when Anet nerfed AoE and made monsters flee from it. Good times...good times...

Make the game a little more challenging for everyone and everyone complains. I'm sorry you can't walk through zones anymore. Adapt your builds to the changes and everything will still be okay.

wingzro · Jun 09, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

christopher reeves can still function too, you think he doesn't have any problems with the way he functions after he was nerfed?

You do know he's dead right?

Loviatar · Jun 09, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildmouseX

christopher reeves can still function too

no he cant since you missed the little fact he died you little red engine

Quote:

you think he doesn't have any problems with the way he functions after he was nerfed?

no he died so i see no problems

to compare a game balance to a severe spinal injury and death shows that you are so out of touch with reality it isnt funny.

jerk

WildmouseX · Jun 09, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingzro

You do know he's dead right?

no i hadn't heard he died, i changed my statement to past tense.

to the guy who called me a jerk, then deleated - it is a just comparrison... a caster class, who's primary attribute is supose to reharge their energy and is broken to the point where it doesn't do such a thing is crippled, just as he was after his accident.

noblepaladin · Jun 09, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

I do think that the old Soul Reaping was overpowered (there was a time when everybody went crazy when ANet capped the MM's maximum number of minions too, people said that 50 minion armies in PvE was not overpowered...). However, I don't like the change they made to Soul Reaping because the energy gain is very random.

I would prefer dead enemies to give x arrows of energy regeneration for 5 seconds rather than y energy every 5 seconds. That way there is a hard cap (the natural 10 arrows of regeneration maximum). To keep a consistent energy/sec with the current soul reaping system (the current one can give up to 3.2 energy/sec at level 16 soul reaping whereas the maximum 6 extra pips would only give 2 energy/sec), we can add in a base energy gain of one or two energy per kill along with the extra pips. Something like this would give about the same amount of energy/sec, but people would be more satisfied because the energy doesn't come in spikes and it doesn't seem like a crappy work-around fix.

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 09, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

no it's not. We were talking about the pre-nerf soul reaping, and the pre-nerf MM.
True, SF is a bar with a pretty high damage output, but your claim that it's higher than an MM is 1) simply not true and 2) irrelevant because an MM has half a bar left after he has his essential skills on it to do cool stuff with, while an SF ele has to devote almost his entire bar to energy management.

MM builds are much tighter than you think and "cool stuff" isn't usually included. Anyway, minions damage output is often completely irrelevant because their function isn't specifically damage output. In higher level areas you make minions to serve as body blockers and distractions while the rest of your party does their thing. MM's do not have a damage output as high as a SF Ele, even before the nerf, because minions don't deal a fixed amount damage per second and even though they give you energy when they die they aren't a reliable source of energy. SF Eles might have to dedicate much of their bars to energy management but SF is a strong, consistent build. Also, most builds are really only 3-4 skills with the remaining skills being supportive skills based on the preference of the user or whatever task needs to be done.

btw...here's my MM build...please tell me where the "cool stuff" is...
[skill]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of The Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Healing Breeze[/skill][skill]Heal Area[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]

Loviatar · Jun 09, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

no i hadn't heard he died, i changed my statement to past tense.

to the guy who called me a jerk, then deleated

it is still there not gone just changed to avoid the banbat forwhat i really think of the comparison.

you have really lived a very sheltered real life to be able to toss out a gem like that

Does-it-Matter · Jun 09, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

1) under the 5 second rule, there are many times where the necro get's denied energy all together. for a quick example, a ranger spirit dies right as battle it begining and the necro "gains" energy while his bar is full - the group then drops 3-4 of the mob in 5 seconds, leaveing the necro with 0 energy to fight the last 1 or 2 baddies that are left.

If I'm playing my Necro, and the group I'm in drops 75% of the mob's creatures in less than the first 5 seconds of battle... I'm not going to worry about my energy.

Secondly... how do you manage to burn through up to 61 energy in less than 5 seconds?

Quote:

2)the necro's primary attribute is energy replacement... the Monk isn't required to bring skills just to get the extra healing from devine favor. the Mes isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of fast casting. the El isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of energy storage. - why the hell should we be forced to carry skills to get the benifit of soul reaping?

I believe under the current SR description and the perhaps-future one, you still gain energy. So thus, it still functions as an "Energy Replacement" attribute whether you bring skills or not.

Say you start with upwards of 61 energy (very possible), then in the 15 seconds of gaining three hits of SR (at 13) you gain 39 Energy. Also, in that 15 second period you gain 20 Energy from just your 4 pips.

That's a possible 59 energy, in 15 seconds or less, every 15 seconds.

You are effectively refilling your energy bar, every 15 seconds, by doing nothing other than being by things that die. No skills needed. How can you complain about the energy regain potential of SR?

FoxBat · Jun 09, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I saw that before I posted - key here is that's against Armor 60 level 20 dummies. Not including any armor spells, higher level mobs which, like I said, is most of the game, and other factors, like them attacking warrior mobs that have at least 36 more armor than that. SF blows that away entirely.

Psst... SF, being elemental damage, gets hit the same. (Except that uber 14 DPS of burning, lawl) And you can't work around it with barbs/mark of pain or such.

In areas with alot of bunching, SF probably does more damage... but you need at least 3 eles or an outside burning source for even 1 eles' SF damage to matter. And the pre-factions MMs were vastly more ridiculous with 20-minion armies.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I think you need to grasp the idea that just because something works as the game developers 'intended' does not mean that it is balanced or correct. Dev implementations work towards balance, they aren't balanced by nature.

yes I am aware of that. The post was in response to another post saying protective spirit is working as intended, and the post was about other things being far more overpowered than soul reaping, which makes soul reaping almost underpowered by comparison.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

no it's not. We were talking about the pre-nerf soul reaping, and the pre-nerf MM.
True, SF is a bar with a pretty high damage output, but your claim that it's higher than an MM is 1) simply not true and 2) irrelevant because an MM has half a bar left after he has his essential skills on it to do cool stuff with, while an SF ele has to devote almost his entire bar to energy management.

1) depends on the enemy. 2) the rest of the MM bar is to keep the minions from dying in 2 hits while still trying to keep himself alive, despite the main minion heal sacrificing his own health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Soul Reaping has always been a problem in PvE. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the tank/SS/MM/bonder/healer team that could pretty much farm anything. I've seen skilled players do it with only one monk and only one necro.
When one necro can make up for the lack of damage of 4 other players, something has to be wrong. Guess what! it was soul reaping's limitless energy that gave necro's this ability.

ya? and one monk can keep a group alive better than 4 tanks. powerful heals for 5e cost give them this ability. one warrior can soak up damage better than 4 mesmers. one 55 monk or earth ele can make up for an entire team of 8 against a lot of creatures. how exactly is a bit of energy regen on necros overpowered again? with the exception of SS (which can be removed without doing any damage) and a couple powerful minions (which die really easily and if the necro dies go wild and attack the team), the necro doesn't have a lot of damage potential. and with the exception of a minion factory, they have almost no defense. so really, how is a necro overpowered when compared to things like protective spirit, stoneflesh aura, sliver armor, mystic regeneration, etc?

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

there are two key problems

1) under the 5 second rule, there are many times where the necro get's denied energy all together. for a quick example, a ranger spirit dies right as battle it begining and the necro "gains" energy while his bar is full - the group then drops 3-4 of the mob in 5 seconds, leaveing the necro with 0 energy to fight the last 1 or 2 baddies that are left.

2)the necro's primary attribute is energy replacement... the Monk isn't required to bring skills just to get the extra healing from devine favor. the Mes isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of fast casting. the El isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of energy storage. - why the hell should we be forced to carry skills to get the benifit of soul reaping?

christopher reeves could still function after he was nerfed too, you think he didn't have any problems with the way he functioned from that point on?

the reference to Mr. Reeves was uncalled for, but your point is true.

icymanipulator · Jun 09, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I know, lets all gang up on Wildmouse because he made a bad comparison! Especially since everyone here consistently produces ironclad flawlessly logical arguments that don't contain personal sentiment. Get serious, and cut the poor guy a break.

Wildmouse has a valid point we have argued in the past even if he had a bad analogy. If his reference to Christopher Reeves is all you can find fault with you should reconsider whether or not to post. His point (as argued in the other thread numerous times) is summarized as follows:

1. Wiping out a large pack of mobs in 20 seconds will max out your bar and overflow it wasting all the extra energy which does not get "banked".

2. You will have to wait for spells to cast AND recharge during that 20 second window so you aren't going to be machine gunning anything.

3. If you successfully wipe out the pack of mobs in that 20 second window the fight is over and you won, once again the additional energy goes to waste.

4. The current revision of SR punishes nuking in a similar fashion to what the old one did. Rather than having it hit a maximum energy bar capacity cap they implemented a hard cap completely removing the potential for abuse due to scheduling.

I was wondering where all the bickering over Soul Reaping went, looks like I found it. I know its tough to wade through a 144 page thread but trust me everything being argued in this thread has already been beaten to death.

TabascoSauce · Jun 09, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Well, we'll beat them again bro. (literally, because they are poor losers there)

Has ANet officially commented on its SR definition change and fast retraction?

Thanks!
TabasocSauce

Taala · Jun 09, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

First off, Minions are not great for damage, period. That has always been the case, I don't know where you've been.

Here's how I used to go through Oro before Verata's Sacrifice nerf.

Yeah, Devona and Virulence really rock.

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

ya? and one monk can keep a group alive better than 4 tanks.

...Tanks can heal? I don't know what you're trying to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

one 55 monk or earth ele can make up for an entire team of 8 against a lot of creatures.

Not in every area. They would *truly* be overpowered if they could solo whole campaigns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

how exactly is a bit of energy regen on necros overpowered again?

A "bit" of energy regen isn't much of a problem. A huge friggin' shit load of energy IS. I'd quote Mendes from the SR thread but hell no, I'm not going back into that warground.

Quote:

with the exception of SS (which can be removed without doing any damage) and a couple powerful minions (which die really easily and if the necro dies go wild and attack the team), the necro doesn't have a lot of damage potential.

Look into more builds. SS is just one of the most powerful, and due to stupid enemy AI, MM is one of the most helpful.

Quote:

and with the exception of a minion factory, they have almost no defense.

As it should be with all caster classes.

Quote:

so really, how is a necro overpowered when compared to things like protective spirit, stoneflesh aura, sliver armor, mystic regeneration, etc?

Prot. Spirit overpowered? That's an awesome skill, dunno what you're talking about. Without it we'd be pretty borked in many cases. Silver Armor is very risky, since you're not always target by enemies. SE Aura is in Earth Magic, which sucks. Mystic Regen.....I smell a nerf coming to that one.

I'd also like to point out that it sounds like you're saying "How come they're nerfing necroes but not solo-farming builds?".

Chicken Ftw · Jun 09, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

1. Wiping out a large pack of mobs in 20 seconds will max out your bar and overflow it wasting all the extra energy which does not get "banked".

2. You will have to wait for spells to cast AND recharge during that 20 second window so you aren't going to be machine gunning anything.

3. If you successfully wipe out the pack of mobs in that 20 second window the fight is over and you won, once again the additional energy goes to waste.... /snip

So er... where's the problem here? Your energy is maxed, the mobs are dead... ... o.o;

I do agree with you on one thing though: everything in this topic has been said multiple times. So... If someone doesn't understand why necros are fine by now, they probably never will. /Finished with topic with this, sitting back and watching for the humor from now on.

icymanipulator · Jun 09, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

So er... where's the problem here? Your energy is maxed, the mobs are dead... ... o.o;

I do agree with you on one thing though: everything in this topic has been said multiple times. So... If someone doesn't understand why necros are fine by now, they probably never will. /Finished with topic with this, sitting back and watching for the humor from now on.

You basically agree with everything I said according to this. There is no problem thats the point! Everything is dead so "unlimited energy" is not a unbalanced game issue. Thats precisely the point. Anything you get in surplus is either wasted due to the bars cap or you won't be able to spend because everything died in a 20 second window and casting/recharge will fill that time up. Its collectively called the necromancer "tax".

Yes everything has been beaten to death, there really is no need to re-address the same tired old points.

WildmouseX · Jun 09, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

If I'm playing my Necro, and the group I'm in drops 75% of the mob's creatures in less than the first 5 seconds of battle... I'm not going to worry about my energy.

playing a necro as a mm you generaly don't start throwing spells untill things start dyeing, the series of event i discribed could happen 15-20-30 seconds into the fight, as long as you haven't had a chance to cast a minnion spell it's still valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Secondly... how do you manage to burn through up to 61 energy in less than 5 seconds?

where the hell you finding 61 energy for a necro? my radiant set net's me 50. with half of the necro's curse's costing 15 energy, and have 1 second cast times, burning though 60 energy in 5 seconds is not only posible, it happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

I believe under the current SR description and the perhaps-future one, you still gain energy. So thus, it still functions as an "Energy Replacement" attribute whether you bring skills or not.

Say you start with upwards of 61 energy (very possible), then in the 15 seconds of gaining three hits of SR (at 13) you gain 39 Energy. Also, in that 15 second period you gain 20 Energy from just your 4 pips.

That's a possible 59 energy, in 15 seconds or less, every 15 seconds.

You are effectively refilling your energy bar, every 15 seconds, by doing nothing other than being by things that die. No skills needed. How can you complain about the energy regain potential of SR?

just because you believe something, doesn't make it reality.

again you are ignoreing the fact that many, in fact most of the necros usefull skills are 15-25e - a balance mechnism that's been in place since the start of the game. - so wooptie do we gain enough energy to throw 2 more skills., when an el, mes, or monk can throw an e-management skill and get the same ammount of E, but useing 5e skills.

not only do we have high energy costs and extreamly long recharge rates that were intended to balance the massive ammounts of energy, we now have to deal with those without the energy.

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