Curse

Skuld · Jun 09, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

If Searing Flame does 300 damage per hit - half of PvErs will say thank you and the other half will cry about how their favorite class should also get the boost.

While PvPers go play Fury and WoW.

quoted for irony

Black Strobe · Jun 09, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

I really hope they never bring back the uncapped energy machine SR was before. It was probably the most broken mechanic in the whole game--both--for PvE and PvP, because when alot stuff died in a timeframe, Necros got a virtual energy regeneration of 20-30 pips, sometimes even much more. In PvP this got abused to hell and back and in PvE it made Necro a buttonmasher-class monkeys could play. Nowadays at least a little bit thinking is involved when playing a Necro (and some people complain about that...?!?).

Whatever. I think with the 3/15-change solves the biggest issue I personaly have with the 5s-timer: Mobs in PvE tend do die at one time, mainly because of the AoEs everyone is using and with the 5s-solution Necros miss some energy sometimes. This way, they will get the full energy. 45e every 15s @15 SR is enough for me, tbh.

Very smart solution right to the point!

Paul McKenna · Jun 09, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Looks like these updates were just a bad dream?

The FC change to signets is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. If it ever goes through it will mainly be a significant buff to an already overpowered build concept (eurohex). WTF?

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

The problem with a 55 monk isnt skills, its a combination of game mechanic flaws. The main staple skill of any 55 build is Protective Spirit, which believe it or not, works as its intended too.

Was not Soul Reaping, which behaved exactly the same for over two years, working as intended? It was never a problem until someone came up with a pvp build that abused it through the mechanics of spirits. it gave energy when stuff died, and ONLY when stuff died. fix it for pvp? fine, no energy from spirits. fixed. soul reaping might provide near-infinite energy if you can keep up a steady stream of bodies. is that a little overpowered? maybe, but not enough to worry about nerfing. now 55 on the other hand provides infinite energy AND infinite health, with no requirements other than being hit which always happens when you are solo. ok, so 55 doesn't count because it relies on a certain item. What about stoneflesh / stone striker / mantra of earth farmers? infinite health, infinite energy, relies only on skills and a little bit of energy storage. then you have mystic regeneration, it also can completely keep a farmer alive no matter how much they are hit. suddenly the conditional energy gain of soul reaping almost seems underpowered, eh? yeah ok so these builds don't work against every creature in the game. but in the same regard soul reaping doesn't provide much benefit against every creature in the game, only things you can kill quickly.

every class has and had its stengths and weaknesses. every class had someth special about it. for mesmers, its casting spells and soon signets at nearly double the normal speed. for elementalists, its having a large energy pool, the skills that go with energy storage, and not being hampered much by exhaustion. for monks, its having really strong heals that cost only 5 energy. for rangers, its being able to use pretty much everything but spells for half the normal energy cost, and getting extra protection against elemental damage. for warriors, its the best armor, extra armor penetration, and the amazing skills that are in the strength attribute. for necros, it was the ability to regain some lost energy after vanquishing the foe. now, the necro one is on a timer. can you imagine the outcry if they made divine favor only work once every 5 seconds? or if protective spirit could only reduce damage once every few seconds? or if fast casting was made to be a small % chance instead of on every spell? and if expertise were on a timer or % chance? and those attributes actually have decent skills in their lines to give other reason to putting points in them...

was soul reaping overpowered? maybe, depending on what middle-ground one decides to set. was it the most overpowered thing? most definitely not. should it have a mechanical timer? no. put it back how it was for pve, remove gains from spirits to remove the gimmick build and satisfy pvp "balance".

Dr Strangelove · Jun 09, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

You have to be joking. MM as high damage output? 10 Bone Fiends, even with support damage spells is nothing compared to a single SF Ele. Most definitely a far cry from Thomas.knbk's "10 times higher than any other class". Although you have one thing right, the MM is probably the best thing the necro has/had going for it, since it supplied not only a battery, but also extra targets to cause a diversion for the foolish AI. But damage? LOL

Yeah, all those times people took nukers instead of MMs for damage... what were they thinking!?

Minion masters, especially with bone fiends, do ****loads of damage with only 2 skills - botm and bone fiend. Everything else is just icing on the cake. I can't be arsed to to all the math right now, but suffice to say it's a hell of a lot. SF eles depend on bunched targets, anyway. Anyway, the SR issue isn't really with minion masters, it's the fueling of insanely energy heavy bars that's the problem.

Pretty much all the changes that were noted though are pretty inconsequential. FC signets, 20% longer weapon spells, whoop-de-crap.

SirJackassIII · Jun 09, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Pretty much all the changes that were noted though are pretty inconsequential. FC signets, 20% longer weapon spells, whoop-de-crap.

14 FC + Symbolic Celerity (if stacking) = 90% cut on Signets. 12 Smiting, 4 Insp

Signet of Mystic Wrath (0.2s activation now) followed by Signet of Judgement (0.1s) followed by Bane Sig (0.1s) every 13-14 seconds (cut recharge with Mantra of Inscriptions). 213 damage for all 3, 163 for just the first 2 in 1 second time.

5 Me/Mo, packing Power Return/Leech Signet and some random Smite annoyance with 3 Mo backline should be fun...not to mention Rez Sig could be cast in 0.3 seconds...

Wouldn't exactly call it"inconsequential"...

arcanemacabre · Jun 09, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Anyway, the SR issue isn't really with minion masters, it's the fueling of insanely energy heavy bars that's the problem.

First off, Minions are not great for damage, period. That has always been the case, I don't know where you've been. Oh, they can rip through low-level stuff, sure, but put them against level 20+, ya know, most of the rest of the game, and they do piddly 7-8 damage a hit. x10, that's 70-80 damage every 2 seconds, or 35-40 DPS. Add in that you cannot control what they attack, and you have very undependable chicken scratch.

And that insane energy is used for what? Lots of 25-energy spells in succession? Like an Ele, you mean? How does that make the necro so much better than say, well, any other class out there? Guess what, Mesmers can cast up to 50% faster and then some. Well, no other class can do that, surely that's overpowered? Not every class should have equivalent energy gain, especially if that's the classes specialty, shouldn't that mean they are designed to have superior energy gain? You knock them down to every other spellcaster and what makes them different?

pingu666 · Jun 09, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bone_Fiend

27.5/2 = 13.75 dps from a single bone fiend

but, you will have 10 (or a mix)... thats 137.5 dps from 10 minions

with a mix, and other considerations, 100dps and a hard to define tanking worth...

a sf ele also requires 2 and a half energy management skills, and the odd blood ritual from a necro

Avarre · Jun 09, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

Was not Soul Reaping, which behaved exactly the same for over two years, working as intended?

I think you need to grasp the idea that just because something works as the game developers 'intended' does not mean that it is balanced or correct. Dev implementations work towards balance, they aren't balanced by nature.

I would really post more towards this, but I can't be bothered. I took my necro into PvE, set it up to spam fiends, had no energy trouble, and got bored again. Yes, SR was reduced, but it would appear just about every build can still be run with minor changes... so where is the problem?

Plus, I'm on holiday.

zakaria · Jun 09, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Strobe

I really hope they never bring back the uncapped energy machine SR was before. It was probably the most broken mechanic in the whole game--both--for PvE and PvP, because when alot stuff died in a timeframe, Necros got a virtual energy regeneration of 20-30 pips, sometimes even much more. In PvP this got abused to hell and back and in PvE it made Necro a buttonmasher-class monkeys could play. Nowadays at least a little bit thinking is involved when playing a Necro (and some people complain about that...?!?).

Whatever. I think with the 3/15-change solves the biggest issue I personaly have with the 5s-timer: Mobs in PvE tend do die at one time, mainly because of the AoEs everyone is using and with the 5s-solution Necros miss some energy sometimes. This way, they will get the full energy. 45e every 15s @15 SR is enough for me, tbh.

Very smart solution right to the point!

I'll neglect all your retarded post for this, 15 SR !!!...you must be out of your mind.

jayce · Jun 09, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

I could support that one I guess.... just make it so spirits don't gain at all, to keep the nerf-herding pvp whiners quiet ya?

i wanted to keep the description as close as possible to what it currently is now. but one could always make it as follows:

Soul Reaping
Whenever a creature near you dies, you gain
1...5..6 Energy Regeneration for 3 seconds
(Non-Stackable) and 1...5..6 energy (Stackable).
You gain Soul Reaping from Spirits you control.

at least this way, the will be one spirit that i can reape

Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

Soul Reaping
Whenever a creature near you dies, you gain
1...5..6 Energy Regeneration for 3 seconds
(Non-Stackable) and 1...5..6 energy (Stackable).
You gain half that amount/duration for Spirits.

Staff of the Necromancer
Energy +15
Energy Gain: 0.22 per each point in Soul Reaping
Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance 20%)
Energy +5 (while Health is above 50%)
Health +30
Two-Handed

arcanemacabre · Jun 09, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bone_Fiend

27.5/2 = 13.75 dps from a single bone fiend

but, you will have 10 (or a mix)... thats 137.5 dps from 10 minions

with a mix, and other considerations, 100dps and a hard to define tanking worth...

a sf ele also requires 2 and a half energy management skills, and the odd blood ritual from a necro

I saw that before I posted - key here is that's against Armor 60 level 20 dummies. Not including any armor spells, higher level mobs which, like I said, is most of the game, and other factors, like them attacking warrior mobs that have at least 36 more armor than that. SF blows that away entirely.

Also, who cares what e-management they also have to use? The point I was refuting was raw damage potential, which clearly MMs have not.

Shmanka · Jun 09, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Why are they making soul reaping so ridiculous? The answer is so simple... Izzy go stick your finger in the electrical socket then attempt to balance this game you may have more success.

Kale Ironfist · Jun 09, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

SF is also an elite, that requires several spells to fuel its energy costs. Minion Masters just bring Order of Undeath, and now you have DPS that breaches SF many times over, since even SF gets affected by armor. Net result? One combo deals more damage at the cost of losing more health.

Note also, that Minion Masters will provide bodies for bodyblocking. Usually inconsequential for PvE, but smarter players can kite through them to prevent melee from destroying them.

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

Anet basically has to do that, though. WoW is centered around PvE, and when there are skill changes, PvP suffers.

Hold up. I saw this and just wanted to say that Blizzard does the opposite: skills are mostly balanced because of PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

really I think guildwars beats WoW in PvE hands down.

Whoa. Seriously???

crimsonfilms · Jun 09, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

quoted for irony

And sad.
GW PvPers rather play WoW PvE over GW PvP.
So sad.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 09, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I think you need to grasp the idea that just because something works as the game developers 'intended' does not mean that it is balanced or correct. Dev implementations work towards balance, they aren't balanced by nature.

I would really post more towards this, but I can't be bothered. I took my necro into PvE, set it up to spam fiends, had no energy trouble, and got bored again. Yes, SR was reduced, but it would appear just about every build can still be run with minor changes... so where is the problem?

Plus, I'm on holiday.

Quoted/bolded for undeniable truth, which some people seem to be ignoring in their attempt to keep the arguments going.

Jetdoc · Jun 09, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Can someone comprehensively summarize all of the changes? All I can find in the 14 pages of this thread are piecemeal bits of information (i.e. the new sunspear skill, a summary of the mesmer skill changes and whether they've been repealed, etc.).

It would be awesome if the OP or mods could edit the first post to allow posters to avoid reading 14 pages of information to get an update.

;(

Black Strobe · Jun 09, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

I'll neglect all your retarded post for this, 15 SR !!!...you must be out of your mind.

I use to run Aura of the Lich as my Elite plus 2 Superiors all the time when playing MM and it really does not matter if I have 200 Health (2 Sup) after AoLed up, or 237 Health (1 Sup), because my Minions tank all the aggro and AoL basicly halfs the effective penalty of runes. This is how I roll, -- if you don't like it, no problem -- but stop calling other people names, just because you don't know better. Thank you.

Thomas.knbk · Jun 09, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

You have to be joking. MM as high damage output? 10 Bone Fiends, even with support damage spells is nothing compared to a single SF Ele. Most definitely a far cry from Thomas.knbk's "10 times higher than any other class".

no it's not. We were talking about the pre-nerf soul reaping, and the pre-nerf MM.
True, SF is a bar with a pretty high damage output, but your claim that it's higher than an MM is 1) simply not true and 2) irrelevant because an MM has half a bar left after he has his essential skills on it to do cool stuff with, while an SF ele has to devote almost his entire bar to energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

Was not Soul Reaping, which behaved exactly the same for over two years, working as intended? It was never a problem until someone came up with a pvp build that abused it through the mechanics of spirits.

Soul Reaping has always been a problem in PvE. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the tank/SS/MM/bonder/healer team that could pretty much farm anything. I've seen skilled players do it with only one monk and only one necro.
When one necro can make up for the lack of damage of 4 other players, something has to be wrong. Guess what! it was soul reaping's limitless energy that gave necro's this ability.