Curse

Gattocheese · Jun 13, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

You hit the nail on the head. I couldnt agree with you more. The game is no longer designed for hardcore or extensive players.

Winterclaw · Jun 13, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you want the prices of items to go up, you need to cut the supply, then the drops must decrease and quality must decrease. This means less good drops, more crap drops and good drops that are sellable will be rarer and rarer.

Is this really a good idea?

Not unless you are the only person with the uber build for farming golds.

Person A farms X so he can buy Y from person B.
Person B farms Y so he can buy Z from person C.
Person C farms Z so he can buy X from person A.

It doesn't work out perfectly like that, but I hope you all get the idea of how it works. Speeding up the drops is in everyone's best interest.

DreamRunner · Jun 13, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

The economy is fixed.

Early game: huge population growth, far outstrips item availability, prices = high.

Mid game: some population growth, outstrips or balances item availability, prices = med.

Late game: slow growth, or stagnate or declining population, the production of items far out-strips the consumption... very low prices.

What's your point?

Huh? Poor people will stay poor, and the rich will stay rich. Thats it. Prices are still going for 100K+ecto's and poor people have no way on paying for it, nor will they ever since gaining cash is so bad now. And the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger and bigger.

fowlero · Jun 13, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

personally i dont believe that the economy is "broken" as so many put it. it is simply different, and asking Anet to change this is imo pretty stupid because its them thats making it happen.

First they introduce loot scaling to crash income of extensive farmers (and many "normal" players, many in my guild find it insanely hard to get cash and they are these so called "casual" players) with less money floating about people are less willing to pay high prices so prices drop.

Next they introduce these weekends, cant remember them all since loot scaling but the ones that pop to mind are the double rare chance or whatever it was out of chests. This floods the market with golds, making prices go down less.

This is all complete speculation but they changed the ecto's back to exclusion from loot scaling pretty fast, so the price dropped massively, and has since leveled out somewhat, at a lower price.

The only thing that to me hasnt changed "that much" in prices is Dye, and oh look... triple chances of a dye drop this weekend.

Anet is trying to change the economy, in their minds they ARE fixing it.

btw this is all just my speculation of whats happening, i wouldnt be surprised if i'm very wrong

EDIT: just reread this and just wanted to add i do feel that something needs to be done to help "casual" players get money, because the larger proportion of them i know cannot find a steady way of making money. one cant even get a major vigor rune at 2.1k which i think kinda ruins the game somewhat.

Gattocheese · Jun 13, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Everyone can agree that the market is flooded with golds that no one wants to buy. And only a few items out of the thousands of items in guild wars is worth 100k + ecto. Not like it used to be. Its good for the casual player because everything is worthless, but i hate getting a req 9 sword drop that i have to merch. No more "Sweet ! Woo Hoo !" drops.

glountz · Jun 13, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gattocheese

You hit the nail on the head. I couldnt agree with you more. The game is no longer designed for hardcore or extensive players.

It never was intended to be hardcore-designed.
Yeah, this game is fine and casual-friendly.

Pyrea · Jun 13, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

I don't know if we can say that the economy is "broken" but one thing I can say is that this loot scaling fiasco isn't truly working. Anet really needs to go back to the drawing board on this one. You can't even farm any collector stuff now anymore. Yesterday I wanted to collect some insect carapaces to get my heroes some collector weapons, killed many bugs and only got 2 carapaces, and that's solo farming on HM.

The Defiled Knight · Jun 13, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Economy getting ruined bah haha as if, I must admit stuff like ectos shouldn't be cheaper it ruins the value of obby armour but when it comes to stuff like dye if black dye was about 1k that would be great it's a little bit of colour on your armour it isn't worth 7k of hard earned cash. When it comes to stuff like this it's your personal opinion everyone has a differant view on this subject all i'm saying is lets agree to disagree ( anet can't fix the economy though that's up to the people playing the game and we do need to learn to appreciate anet giving us the great drop weekends ).

Just my input though see ya'll around.

pork soldier · Jun 13, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

Huh? Poor people will stay poor, and the rich will stay rich. Thats it. Prices are still going for 100K+ecto's and poor people have no way on paying for it, nor will they ever since gaining cash is so bad now. And the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger and bigger.

That's how capitalism (and the USA) work, don't be surprised if your video game mirrors it.

You can get around it in the same way people get around it IRL: screw other people, get the best deal and flip the goods to make some cash. IE: buy low from people who don't know what they're selling and sell high to people who don't know what the prices should be.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 13, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

I find nothing wrong with the economy. Last night from doing just a few missions and opening 2 Chests in Vabbi i gained 15k (thats Merchanting everything and with no drop worth more than 250g) Back in the days of Tryia it tooks days to earn money that fast. Money comes in an an acceptable rate u can easy get a full set fo 15k armour in just a few days of play time, back in tryia it took me Weeks to get enough money to be able to afford it my 1st set of 15k. If i really want a high end item i take a little time and save up my money for it, other people prefer to farm to gain money even Faster.

Some People want everything and they want it right now. Pateice is a Virtue and gaining something feels more of an acomplishment if it takes time and or effort.

Ok so drops like Ectos are worth alot less, they are also easier to aquire so u can get more of them. The important thing is theres a greater chance for the more casual gamer whos not farming obsessed to gain money or rare items.

Roshi_ikkyu · Jun 13, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

People are forgetting in most cases your paying 100k+ for a skin. Yes a skin, the basic cover look of an item.

Don't forget collectors and modded drops.

And there is no need for such items in PvP, faction unlocks what u need.

FalconDance · Jun 13, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Weird thing is, WHY do those who farm need to have such an ungodly amount of gold/goods to begin with? They're not buying anything, only selling in most cases, so in practice, the FARMERS are responsible for the economy crashing so hard!

I can understand if they're buying armors and weapons for their own characters (which you'd think would result from their own farming - the weaps, esp.). But it seems as if building an inexhaustable amount of gold is the only purpose behind their logging on - and I can't understand that concept. Then to bitch and whine because there's so much on the market that no one wants to buy anything anymore - or that the prices are incredibly low because there's so much on the market ........ seems kinda obvious who's the ones to 'blame', doesn't it? It isn't Anet, that's for sure!

Now, I'll try new profession combinations or skill sets in PvE just to see if I can make them work. I tried the Bunny Thumper (great fun!) and re-skilled/re-armored my mesmer yesterday (right before the armor cap *groan*) to see if the uber squishy really can go absolutely solo as everyone says. It cost quite a bit of gold, sure, but not an unreasonable amount that I had to go out and farm for a couple hours. I even bought a nice scythe at a reasonable price from another player. I suppose I could've gone out in some areas and farmed until I had one drop, but why? This player had one in his inventory, and I now had a need for a scythe to be sitting in mine. We agreed upon a value and exchanged gold for scythe. THAT is how the economy works. Demand and Supply. Not this relentless acquisition just for the sake of acquisition.

Farming. If I need bodily parts for collectors, then this loot scaling is affecting me adversely (and it is). Some of the collector skins are far more attractive to me than the rares and greens (I love the lotus staves).

In GW as in real life, there will be those who will push the envelope with every loophole they can find. I have nothing against those who farm EXCEPT the fact that they are directly responsible for the very thing they are crying foul over - the economy being down. Grow up and learn economics, boys and girls.

The GW economy isn't broken for me or the other two players in my household. We have never had the need to farm (except for crafting or collectors goods) and have never had difficulty with a lack of gold or weaps except when we very first started in the game (as to be expected).

Farmers want to whine and whinge because they're not making as many uber riches, then maybe they're the ones who are 'broke'. The rest of are just fine.

If it ain't truly broke, don't fix it.

~Falcon

DreamRunner · Jun 13, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

That's how capitalism (and the USA) work, don't be surprised if your video game mirrors it.

You can get around it in the same way people get around it IRL: screw other people, get the best deal and flip the goods to make some cash. IE: buy low from people who don't know what they're selling and sell high to people who don't know what the prices should be.

Sure its how capitalism works, and its model is failing the game. I'm pretty sure Anet has some idea about this and how capitalism works, so much so, on how much the model fails terribly on a small economy base such as GW. Oh wait, in the U.S the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, so it already fails.

But yeah you can get around it, if only Anet would support an auction, like here in guru.

lyra_song · Jun 13, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia_Hunter

People like to ignore some stuff.

You talking about yourself?

You know economy involves more than just supply. Theres also a little thing called demand.

Quote:

Who is the guilty black dye is expensive?
Anet, cause they drop less than other colours.

And if nobody cared about black dye, would the price be high? No.

Personally, black is ugly. I like purple and red.

Quote:

Who is the guilty Sup Vigor is expensive?
Anet, cause they dont drop in enough amounts.

Heh Superior Vigor. Its 9 more health than Major vigor.
You gotta be really bad in math to see which vigor rune is the best value.

Quote:

Who is the guilty that rare skins are so absurdly expensive, that only a non statisticaly relevant fraction of the population can acess them?
Anet and Bots, and Anet again. Anet cause they drop in such low numbers when compared to the overall population, that not even a minority of hardcore players can trade and acquire more than a few at most. Bots cause they generate the only currency that matters in numbers that surpass the hardcore player solo farmer. And Anet cause they only stop the human players that generate currency and not the bots.

Oh you mean like the Crystalline? Its rare. Super expensive. And ugly to boot.

People want it cause its rare. Thats your guilty party right there. They drive up prices. They make those shitty items look cool cause of their high prices.

Bots are guilty of patronizing the idiot players who think that owning rare items makes you cool, so they are willing to spend real money on it.

You can charge a premium on something only if people are willing to pay it.

Sometimes charging a premium alone creates the illusion of a better product (look at Apple, iPods cost less than $150 to produce in parts and labor). Or you can charge such a high cost if you can justify it through other means (rarity, difficulty to obtain, think PS3 scalpers back in december).

Now. If no one BOUGHT this shit at this high cost, sellers would be forced to lower prices, because the supply increases daily.

Zedd Kun · Jun 13, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Heh Superior Vigor. Its 9 more health than Major vigor.
You gotta be really bad in math to see which vigor rune is the best value.

Heh, Superior Vigor isn't affected by DP, Major Vigor is.

Anyway, GW economy has been broken since day one, those who found the first
best farming spots got loads of cash, and some of them are still very rich. The best and only way to earn big cash in GW is to powertrade, and if you don't start with crap items you can earn 1-2k on, no new players will ever be able to do it...

lyra_song · Jun 13, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedd Kun

Heh, Superior Vigor isn't affected by DP, Major Vigor is.

Oh? How does that work, pray tell. (im not being sarcastic, please explain)

Quote:

Anyway, GW economy has been broken since day one, those who found the first
best farming spots got loads of cash, and some of them are still very rich. The best and only way to earn big cash in GW is to powertrade, and if you don't start with crap items you can earn 1-2k on, no new players will ever be able to do it...

But...isnt that how a real economy works anyway??

Those who make money do so not through hard work or diligence, but through exploitation of other people's work, mistakes, or natural resources. Being first and being smart is better than being a hard worker.

Zedd Kun · Jun 13, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Oh? How does that work, pray tell. (im not being sarcastic, please explain)

But...isnt that how a real economy works anyway??

Those who make money do so not through hard work or diligence, but through exploitation of other people's work, mistakes, or natural resources. Being first and being smart is better than being a hard worker.

I don't remember, but I've heard it some times before, I MIGHT have wrong tho, but I'm pretty sure DP don't affect the +50 bonus on superior vigors..

You can't really compare RL economy with a game economy, things are not supposed to work in the same way.. When Anet made this game, they wanted everyone to get the best items (stats), that's why they made greens. But they also made some rares so the hardcore players could have a reward for their hard "working".. It's hard for me to explain in English, but I don't think it's fair that new players can't start with the same oppertunities we had when we started.

lyra_song · Jun 13, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedd Kun

I don't remember, but I've heard it some times before, I MIGHT have wrong tho, but I'm pretty sure DP don't affect the +50 bonus on superior vigors..

You can't really compare RL economy with a game economy, things are not supposed to work in the same way.. When Anet made this game, they wanted everyone to get the best items (stats), that's why they made greens. But they also made some rares so the hardcore players could have a reward for their hard "working".. It's hard for me to explain in English, but I don't think it's fair that new players can't start with the same oppertunities we had when we started.

Well the ones who were here first will always have some sort of advantage. New players will always play catch-up.

Theres no way to close the gap, if you want an economy to exist at all.

Zedd Kun · Jun 13, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

That is true.. I don't think there is any way for Anet to fix this without having a rollback, and that will never happen..

Robin_Anadri · Jun 13, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

<sarcasm>Quite obviously, what we need to have is for Anet to implement code that will look at the amount of gold and rare items in everyone's inventory, and distribute them equally among all players.

Say, once a day at midnight PST, quick scan of inventory, run a simple process like:

TotalGold=(sum of gold in all players inventories)
FixedGold=TotalGold/NumberOfAccounts
SetEveryPlayerGoldBalance(FixedGold)

Repeat that process for ecto, shards, jewels... hell, may as well do all materials, as long as it's not greater than a 250 stack, the extras can just go in the bit bucket if applicable.

As for items, well that doesn't work cleanly, does it? So just have the process remove all non-customized items and replace them with the merchant value of gold.

Of course, you'll want to change the drop code so that every boss always drops one of his green for each human member of the party, and chests always drop perfect req 9 golds.

There, your gap between the rich and the poor taken care of. Doesn't that sound like a fun game to play?</sarcasm>