Curse

kidkid · Jun 10, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

I agreed, Heros killed Guildwars. I kind of quited the game at PVE because of that, everyone just pve with their heros, and now I kinda quit PVP too cuz there is nothing to do while waiting for ppl to get online for PVP. Heros should never have exist. GG to Arenanet. Very bad move.

ElinoraNeSangre · Jun 10, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I personally love that I have options. Maybe I only have 10 minutes to bang out a quest. Maybe I know I might have to drop everything at any time, which would screw over a team if I'm playing with one. Or, I might want to have some fun with a random team and really kick ass on a mission. I'm going for survivor on my dervish; I'll shamelessly log out if I think I'm going to die. I don't want that screwing other people over.

If PUGs are dead-ish, it's because bad playing made them such. It's bad players, jerky people, elitists who think their way is the only way, or people that can't take constructive criticism about their playing/builds that killed PUGs. All heroes did was draw more attention to the fact. If everyone would chill the heck out (take some valium people!), not be build nazis, and just *have fun*, there'd be a lot more PUGing.

Navaros · Jun 10, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

>> to most ppl here who tell that only ppl complaining bout heros are noobs who cant handle shit alone.

Well, I am not a noob. As a matter a fact, i think i am a good player. Many others had a same opinion. And I DO complain about heroes and hench, sure for some of you they might be god sent but that isnt the case for everyone. Did you ever really tried to create a PUG? You can invite anyone you like, check their builds, and kick em if you dont like em. So, when you have your full group of non-noobs you can go out there and have some fun, maybe even discover some nice person. "But noooo, that is too long, i will just grab my heroes and hench and solo everything..." Well let me tell you something, you can't say for yourself that you are good player till you complete many missions with real players, coz thats when your talent comes to surface, your leadership, your ability to correct other ppl's mistakes. Playing with NPC's is liek farming to me, always the same shit, you can't expect any diffrence. They might be "perfect" companions, but they are always the same, so you can't improve yourself.... and you wont always get perfect circumstances, neither ingame or in life. So better get used to it right away.

That's a strange logic, one must take incompetent players on his team and then point out their incompetencies to them to be a good player eh. No, that doesn't make someone a good player, it just makes him good at donating his time to babysitting & reference library duties and letting bad players leech off of him.

People already did that for many, many months before Heroes were available anyhow. That's how they know they don't like it and why they don't do it anymore since they no longer have to thanks to Heroes.

Also, correcting mistakes of Heroes' AI via flagging and skillbar micro requires skill o'plenty to make them run at top efficiency. Not to mention that heavy use of Heroes encourages one to learn about, make good skillbars for every class, something PUGing never requires. That definitely leads to improving one's self.

To top it all off, chances are those wise enough to use Heroes/Henchies are already at the top of their game and not in need of improvement. It is those who require the "services" of the Heroes/Henchies-using players to PUG with them that need improvement. But they shouldn't expect an inherent right to be able to leech those lessons off of good players who do not have fun donating their time like that.

Perkunas · Jun 10, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I can't say Heros killed GW. Let me ask a few questions, if I may. How many people were playing Prophesies before Factions was released? What percentage of Factions sales were new people, not having owned Prophesies? Same for the Nightfall release, what percentage was first time buyers of any of the chapters? If the first time buyers were a very low percentage, then the other previous users are now scattered accross how many outposts and missions, AD & ID? 3 million people in 1 chapter makes for many opportunities to PuG. 3 million in 2 or 3 chapters makes it more difficult to PuG. The Heros help to fill in when not enough people are available.

In the past, my monk was a sought after part of any team. Now when I bring her on and join a group, they want me to ping my skills. They then set about telling me to change this and to change that. My build is what I have used and have been very successful with throughout my journey to Protector, cartographer, wisdom seeker, etc.. It doesn't matter that I have taken several groups through THK without a loss of life, and many as the only monk, they want this skill changed or that skill changed. Maybe I will change the skill and ping the wanted build and change back, or just log off and get another character. Dunkoro is better with those 1 or 2 different skills than I am. If you think so. My monk has been idle since about two weeks after the release of Nightfall.

When I form a PuG, people are pinging me their skills. I may or may not look at them. What they are using does not really matter to me. If I look and see something really 'off the wall', like a warrior using predominately ele skills, I may ask why such a build. If their explaination sounds reasonable, I leave them alone. Sometimes I may offer a slightly different build, warrior skills complemented with ele skills. Whether or not they change is their choice. They won't be kicked.

Heros did not kill GW. GW is still alive and kicking. People who felt FORCED to PuG, are now not PuGing, and were probably henching anyway. 3 chapters, several districts over many outposts and missions, just makes it look like GW is dead.

Onarik Amrak · Jun 10, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

PUGs killed PUGs. Not a whole lot left to say about it.

Q F T !

Creeping Carl · Jun 10, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

People who complain about Heroes and say that Heroes are for the socially inept are the same people that I avoid in the game. Funny thing is that they're usually the ones who are guilty of what they're accusing people of being: socially inept. Rudeness, childishness and just plain bad players. Everything that I hate about PUGs.

Heroes saved the game for me. I wouldnt have bought Nightfall if I had to endure everything with PUGs again. There are plenty of things that "screwed up" GW but Heroes are nowhere on that list.

Mad King Corn · Jun 10, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Heroes did not ruin GW, rude and obnoxious people did. Heroes are the best thing that ever happened in Guild Wars, I love my heroes and they are spoiled rotten. I could not immagine Guild Wars anymore without heroes. Heroes fill the gap when its impossible to get a good group.

Solange · Jun 10, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

i think additional classes, new skills along with heroes for me anyway ruined the experience

I liked how it was kept simple back in the days and not overly bloated feeling...I think this is why you see so many people still play in Pre-Searing is that this area of the game CAN'T CHANGE, its kept exactly the way it is for the most part from the very first day the game came out, no new classes or skills in pre-searing...

I think the expansions should have been ALL content based, new areas to explore, new cool shiny weapons, and new PVP/PVE gametypes but they shouldn't have screwed over balance with new skills, new player classes....i loved the original 6 player classes, the game fit perfect back then and bahhhhh

HardWonFame · Jun 10, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I don't like what heroes have done as far as PuGs go, but they are a very nice, unique, and helpful feature that has helped to make Guild Wars the best MMO alternative out there.

I personally would rather pick up a PuG for a mission, even if the PuG takes a few tries to get through it then work with heroes, helping new or clueless players is part of the game for me.

But as far as quests go, Heroes all the way. Quest completion has never been so much fun. And if you have to occasionally shore up a party for a mission, sure ill throw a hero in.

Play how you want to play.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 10, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

PUGs killed PUGs. Not a whole lot left to say about it.

I believe that's true. The quality of pugs never really improved since day 1.

I dont want to group with people that give Dunkoro Firestorm and neither do many other people. Trying to screen out these people combined with the poor lfg system in GW just makes people frustrated and bypass it all by going with hench/heroes.

Traveller · Jun 10, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Actually, at the very beginning, PUGs were fun, since no one had that much of an idea what to do and everyone was still learning. People were open-minded, enthusiastic to learn and generally a lot more fun to hang around with. At least for me, it led to some fun PUG experiences, which have been getting more scarce the longer the game has been going on.

But at some point me and a lot of others thought - "Hey, instead of baby-sitting these people, taking their abuse and putting up with their behaviour - why don't I just grab the henchmen instead?" and since henchmen are good, we didn't return.

Now, of course if you're in a good and active guild like I was fortunate to be for a long time, it's not a problem. But not all are so fortunate. With the addition of heroes in Nightfall, it's just so much more easier to take your trusty henchmen and heroes who you know will do the job without whining and bitching than to try and find a PUG who'll accomplish the same.

I'd actually compare heroes and henchies to a guild team - you know what your teammates are capable of, they're reliable and get the job done.

Twinsoul · Jun 10, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

My first character, a monk, PUGed through Prophecies, then henched most of Factions and all of Nightfall. Nowadays, the only reason I ever PUG is just for some cheap laughs and occasionally a recruit for my guild. Unlike some of the other monks who have posted here, I love my heroes. I'm not a very social person outside my network of friends and guildies, just because I don't like dealing with the kind of massive stupidity that is so prevalent in online gaming, and heroes let me enjoy the game with my friends, not to mention actually being able to play when I don't have enough for a full guild group. The only thing I miss about PUGs were those rare occasions when I met a player that I worked well with and became friends with, but most people who are likeminded enough to click with me also avoid PUGs like the plague. All and all, I think heroes are a pretty good deal for most players... the exception being those inexperienced enough to need a good group to carry them through the game.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 10, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveller

Actually, at the very beginning, PUGs were fun, since no one had that much of an idea what to do and everyone was still learning. People were open-minded, enthusiastic to learn and generally a lot more fun to hang around with. At least for me, it led to some fun PUG experiences, which have been getting more scarce the longer the game has been going on.

But at some point me and a lot of others thought - "Hey, instead of baby-sitting these people, taking their abuse and putting up with their behaviour - why don't I just grab the henchmen instead?" and since henchmen are good, we didn't return.

Now, of course if you're in a good and active guild like I was fortunate to be for a long time, it's not a problem. But not all are so fortunate. With the addition of heroes in Nightfall, it's just so much more easier to take your trusty henchmen and heroes who you know will do the job without whining and bitching than to try and find a PUG who'll accomplish the same.

I'd actually compare heroes and henchies to a guild team - you know what your teammates are capable of, they're reliable and get the job done.

Thats kinda what I was getting at. At the beginning we were all new to the game and at the same basic level. Over time some people got better and others didnt, along with new people coming into the game. So because of the people that didnt get better and the new people coming in, pugs never really got better. Maybe slightly but not enough.

angmar_nite · Jun 10, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

I join pugs every now and then or when i have time. But when it's a frustrating, short, or difficult mission, I'll take my heroes.

I am looking forward to trailblazing the PVE world in GW2 though. Discovering the game mechanics along with everyone else.

rohara · Jun 10, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

i gave up on PUGing long before NF was released, and heroes were a GODSEND. every now and then i'll try a PUG and become so frustrated i swear off PUGing again for a long time.

my last PUG...ring of fire mission. i was a monk. we had 2 warriors...both using running builds, complete with mending! one liked to show us how "i will survive!" works by standing in every pool of lava he could find. the other liked to pull all the baddies right to the monks. we also had a 55 mesmer! who, unfortunately, did not bring 55 skills to go along with it, and died every 5 seconds or so. she also liked to spam ping "I'm dead!". yeah, like we hadn't noticed! the other monk had 3 cap sigs on her bar, though there aren't that many skills to cap in the mission. one of the nukers didn't even have an elite, and thought using pbaoe fire skills on the titans would be a swell idea. he, too, died about every 5 seconds or so.

i've also been in a PUG where the monk went afk to get a haircut. lovely! there was also the PUG at tombs, where we let this very persistent warrior join the group, swearing he was pro and whatnot. i caught him using firestorm and flare.

so yeah. PUGs are dead, but not because of heroes...because of bad players. everybody is a noob once, and that's fine. but i'm not picking up the slack anymore. nobody taught me how to play - i figured it out on my own, and so can anyone else. this game is not massively complicated! if i want to do a mission, i want to do it right the first time, not have to give the eles a "nuking 101" course along the way after watching their epic failure.

PUGs can be good if the leader is a build nazi and likes to boss everyone around, but that takes time and i'd rather just grab my heroes and hench so i'll know what to expect. at least heroes use good builds and almost always do what they're told

Lonesamurai · Jun 11, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

i gave up on PUGing long before NF was released, and heroes were a GODSEND. every now and then i'll try a PUG and become so frustrated i swear off PUGing again for a long time.

my last PUG...ring of fire mission. i was a monk. we had 2 warriors...both using running builds, complete with mending! one liked to show us how "i will survive!" works by standing in every pool of lava he could find. the other liked to pull all the baddies right to the monks. we also had a 55 mesmer! who, unfortunately, did not bring 55 skills to go along with it, and died every 5 seconds or so. she also liked to spam ping "I'm dead!". yeah, like we hadn't noticed! the other monk had 3 cap sigs on her bar, though there aren't that many skills to cap in the mission. one of the nukers didn't even have an elite, and thought using pbaoe fire skills on the titans would be a swell idea. he, too, died about every 5 seconds or so.

i've also been in a PUG where the monk went afk to get a haircut. lovely! there was also the PUG at tombs, where we let this very persistent warrior join the group, swearing he was pro and whatnot. i caught him using firestorm and flare.

so yeah. PUGs are dead, but not because of heroes...because of bad players. everybody is a noob once, and that's fine. but i'm not picking up the slack anymore. nobody taught me how to play - i figured it out on my own, and so can anyone else. this game is not massively complicated! if i want to do a mission, i want to do it right the first time, not have to give the eles a "nuking 101" course along the way after watching their epic failure.

PUGs can be good if the leader is a build nazi and likes to boss everyone around, but that takes time and i'd rather just grab my heroes and hench so i'll know what to expect. at least heroes use good builds and almost always do what they're told

Oh my god, i laughed so hard reading that i actually sprayed coffee out of my nose....

absolutely classic, thank you

Leighwyn · Jun 11, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Heroes weren't the issue for me when it came to losing interest in the game. Primarily, it was the additional character classes being introduced in such a short amount of time that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. When I bought a new campaign, what I personally wanted to do was go through it with my already-existing characters. Once that was done, I wanted to accomplish all the details that go along with that (mapping, skill capping, getting protector, ...) but again with my existing characters. I STILL haven't had the urge to create a ritualist/assasin/paragon/dervish, and factions is already a year old. Now I have two more on top of that from nightfall, with hard mode distracting me further.

Along with that, I think it was a really poor decision to remove skills as a reward for doing quests. It makes it that much more difficult to grow oriented to the new professions when you aren't even provided interesting skills to use early on, but rather have to go through the process of buying them individually from an incomplete list in an outpost. If these existed as they do in prophecies, I would be much more motivated to create a character of the new classes.

Lastly, as many people have mentioned, the modifications to loot that completely severed the head of solo farming squashed the last bit of motivation I had to play. I used to have a blast taking my 55-monk up snakes dance and into dreads to open the random chests there, collecting a billion giant slayer hammers along the way. If they made these changes to combat botting, I still think the better solution would have been employing a simple captcha when you attempted to enter an explorable or mission zone.

So no, heroes didn't ruin anything for me. They made accomplishing PvE goals that much easier. Any idea how hard it is to form a hard mode group for a mission these days, when the few people still playing it are spread over three campaigns and spread over almost 60 missions? I'd much rather spend 10 minutes developing hero builds that could get me through than waiting for a very long time.

Coloneh · Jun 11, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

heroes are great. they make it so decent players arent forced to PUG with shitty players who have no idea what they are doing. almost the only ones complaining are the shitty players(not the only ones, a few decent players like to PuG for no apparent reason)

Master Sword Keeper · Jun 11, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Hello.
I am so disappointed now, I like the system of this game, the idea that you can't get better than me by playing for 10 hours+ a day or ebaying money."That's why i left WoW".But the game is just getting more boring everyday.

Mate I completely agree about the integrity of the Guild Wars Life-span of gameplay. As for your ban. I see it must of been an unfair one.

Listen up everyone. Heroes are a spoiler in the game. Though I love having them there to smash some monsters in the face for me, The loot scaling and less drop ratios are making the game so boring. Can't rack up any mass ammounts of cash and I'm not spending 2hrs playin UW and FoW for 1-2 globs of pink snot. I work too much to waste time. When most of the younger players start working a job, you guys will eventually agree with me.

I'm not able to sustain anymore than 2-3hrs of gameplay anymore. When I first started playing...It was 10hrs+ but now hardly scraping the 3hr mark.
and I know a lot of people are continuing to argue of modes of gameplay.

PVP Vs. PVE and so forth. Heroes are just another addition of henchie. That's it. Human players are rare to find..That's why Anet created the hero system. This system is a permanant fixture. Due to worldwide marketing and advertising. Sorry but heroes are here to stay. As for some other options...Brg back the good old days of ecto farming and gold snatching.

cheers.

Saphrium · Jun 11, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

If I can do everything with heroes, I would have played some offline fantasy games.
Heroes are not my favorite thing about nightfalls, but then again, I couldn't think of anything else in nightfall that attracts me.