Curse

dryserg · Jun 14, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

alrighty it looks like big 3 , 2 , 1 QQ spike to me.(well most of the thread does)
-thx Anet they dont fall for that, I will always welcome any change from you
guys even if somthing is nerfed to hell.
and to all QQers out there, - yes, builds on wiki dont work after apdates like this for a week or two - rofl.

Miral · Jun 14, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havoc of PhoeniX

Every other caster has to think about managing energy

ummmm no.
my monk doesn't, 5e spells and divine favor bonus see to that.
55s and earth farmers don't either, but then, they don't have to worry about health either T.T (yea 55s have skills for e-management but they're passive, set it and forget it)
and as has been said several times before, soul reaping only triggers when something dies. against big bosses with huge hp it is completely useless. (unless your team is dying all around you, in which case, you're probably as good as dead anyway)

Patrick Smit · Jun 14, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

ALthough i think the statement against spam will be a good initiative. Transferring them to trade channel and allow it there is not enough, they increase the scroll speed by 2 to 3.

I wish ANet would stick to their EULA and make it a bannable offense if it is reported. People will stop spamming if it actually causes u to be banned by report. It sounds childish and uncooperative. But remember it is not the ones who report who are responsible for the spammers being banned, no they only have to thank themselves, but i guess their egocentric mindset will not think of that, as it is direceted towards them not being to blame for anything.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 14, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

25 armor cap why god why is dolyak sig the only + armor skill for wars or something might aswell completely remove watch yourself and stand your ground cause if someone brings a skill that adds him some armor their plain useless say remove all armor bonuses a skill can give cause this is retarded. The loot scaling nerf already pissed me off but giving the team armor bonuses was something id actually enjoyed doing in gw or working on builds that gave the entire team armor bonuses how on earth are you gonna tank something in hard mode with +43 armor max if your stupid enough to have 16 strength, or just make feigned neutrality have no drawbacks and no recharge cause this is just insane heres a list of skills that cannot be used in combination anymore for armor bonuses suggest you remove them from the game and keep the highest boost ones:

Defy Pain
Dolyak Signet
"Shields Up!"
"Watch Yourself!"
Defensive Stance
Disciplined Stance
Fertile Season
Otyugh's Cry
Dryder's Defenses
Convert Hexes
Shield of Deflection
Shield of Regeneration
Elemental Resistance
Physical Resistance
Armor of Earth
Kinetic Armor
Obsidian Flesh
Ward Against Elements
Armor of Frost
Armor of Mist
Frigid Armor
Ward Against Harm
Feigned Neutrality
Mighty Was Vorizun
Protective Was Kaolai
Resilient Weapon
Tranquil Was Tanasen
"Stand Your Ground!"
Bladeturn Refrain
Conviction
Avatar of Balthazar

I agree the armor cap is retarded.

This doesn't affect the E/Ds in pvp, they only use Armor of Earth anyway. However it probably screws over dedicated pve tanks and those of us who use team and individual combinations of the above skills. As for the main reason the cap was thought of, are paragon teams really that common?

Ecklipze · Jun 14, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

ummmm no.

ummmm yes, infact every class needs some sort of energy management not just casters.

Ithil Tior · Jun 14, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

ummmm no.
my monk doesn't, 5e spells and divine favor bonus see to that.

Depends on what situation you're in. If I have to heal in hardmode, I must watch my energy (given Im not in a 3 monk team)

Quote:

55s and earth farmers don't either, but then, they don't have to worry about health either T.T (yea 55s have skills for e-management but they're passive, set it and forget it)

So necro farmers do have to care about energy? Don't think so.

Quote:

and as has been said several times before, soul reaping only triggers when something dies. against big bosses with huge hp it is completely useless. (unless your team is dying all around you, in which case, you're probably as good as dead anyway)

Sorry, but that argument is just ridiculous. How many times do you have to fight a big boss in GW, compared to normal gameplay? Most normal (skill cap) bosses are down within a minute. There are only a few "big" bosses in GW, and you can prepare your skillbar for those rare encounters.
Besides, if your team is dying, that means the monks are out of energy too. So why can't you?

Do you think any other caster can get away with such a skill sequence:
Arcane Echo. 15 Energy
Spiteful Spirit*2 30 Energy
Reckless haste. 15 Energy
That is 60 energy in a short period of time. And then you complain you don't have the energy back fast enough to do it again? It's a powerful combination, and it was overpowered because you could spam it. Now you cannot. quit whining.

Komes I · Jun 14, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

I love this update! Some great skill balances there.

arcanemacabre · Jun 14, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

A necro shouldn't have to worry about energy for the same reasons a Mesmer shouldn't have to worry about being interrupted and a Ranger shouldn't have to worry about needing to meet the full energy requirement of skills. It's the primary attribute. It's what makes the necro a necro, or a mesmer a mesmer, or a ranger a ranger. Any comparisons to other classes and their need for e-management is pretty much irrelevant. You can say SR seemed overpowered just because it seemed like a lot of energy, but you can't really compare it to anything to determine that.

What you can do is determine the overall usefulness of SR as a primary attribute versus the overall usefulness of other primaries. That includes all linked spells to said primary. If one seems more useful than another for its intended function, then it is overpowered.

Looking at all the primaries, and I distinctly remember a poll about this at one point, the highest useful primary [for its intended function] is....

Divine Favor.

Now, can anyone dispute this? Can anyone truly say that SR, in it's old form, is better at what it does than Divine Favor is at what it does? Consider factors such as:
1) Control - how well can the user actually control the primary?
2) Conservation - how well does the primary help with the cost of skills or replenishment of energy; and how much energy is actually saved or lost?
3) Abuse - how much can the effect of the primary be abused by secondaries?
4) Usefulness - how useful is the primary for the class itself; is there certain types of builds it favors more than others; and how often are the favored builds run as opposed to the unfavored? (ex: obviously any pure smiting build generally takes little to no effect from DF)
5) PvP Impact - outside of abuse, how often is the class and it's primary used in PvP?
6) PvE Impact - outside of abuse (in this case MM builds with BiP support like B/P groups), how often is the class and it's primary used in PvE?

Seriously think about these. I tried to pose the questions with as little bias as possible, fully aware that some favor the monk, some favor the necro. If anyone else can think of other questions when considering the overall usefulness of a primary attribute (within its intended function, necro is energy gain, monk is additional healing), please do add to it. If I'm correct, then DF is more overpowered than old SR. Let's see some evidence that isn't exclaiming that no other class has that much amount of energy gain - kinda obvious that is.

Sithicus · Jun 14, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

I agree. Armor cap should be increased or make so that your's enchantments only can call upon armor cap. So if ally puts a armor of earth it doesn't cause armor cap to occur. That way they promote team play.

XvArchonvX · Jun 14, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

A necro shouldn't have to worry about energy for the same reasons a Mesmer shouldn't have to worry about being interrupted and a Ranger shouldn't have to worry about needing to meet the full energy requirement of skills. It's the primary attribute. It's what makes the necro a necro, or a mesmer a mesmer, or a ranger a ranger. Any comparisons to other classes and their need for e-management is pretty much irrelevant. You can say SR seemed overpowered just because it seemed like a lot of energy, but you can't really compare it to anything to determine that.

If a class can load up their skill bar without having to worry about energy management, then there's something wrong. Should a necro have better energy management than other classes? Yes, and they do. Mesmers, Eles, Monk, and all other caster classes rely on their 4 pips of regen for the basis of their energy management. If they want any more management than that to run a basic build, they will need to have to take up skill slots. A necro not only gets the benefit of the 4 pips of regen, but also energy from creatures when they die. This gives them the potential to run a skill bar without needing to take a skill slot for energy management.

Does this mean that any profession that runs without a skill bar is overpowered? No, but skill bars without energy management generally have to make use of lower cost skills to do such. Necros have been able to run almost a full bar of 15 energy skills and do nothing for energy compared to something like a SF ele that might have one 15 energy skill and 3 energy (glowing gaze, GoLE, Fire Attune) management skills to run a build that even then can run into energy problems in long battles.

Imo, a balanced Necro profession should either have to run at least 1 energy management skill or at least take cost into account when making the skill bar. They should still have better energy management than most classes, but they should still have to take energy into consideration. Taking away the need to manage energy takes away strategy.

Xinix · Jun 14, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

The armor cap is a bad idea.
Why having all these armor skills if you can't use them.
How can you use shockwave or crystal wave when you are dead with one hit of a warrior in HM. How on earth can an ele survive in DoA or HM with this armor cap? Having 5 monks in the team?
Or should we replace these skills by a running skill to run around like crazy chickens to avoid any damage?
Bye bye earth tank, bye bye earth farm builds.

Also the Stonflesh Aura skill nerf is not needed at all.

Miral · Jun 14, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithil Tior

So necro farmers do have to care about energy? Don't think so.

where exactly did you get that out of my post? thats not what I said at all. another poster said that all other casters have to worry about energy, and I simply pointed out that that is just not true. there are plenty of situations where other casters don't have to worry about energy, and yes, also plenty where necromancers do.
necros weren't really meant to worry about energy from the start, thats why soul reaping has practically no use except for energy management. other primaries that have to do with e-management have usable skills in their line that can do something other than manage energy. add in some reasons for a necro to have soul reaping other than passive energy management, then we'll talk about necros being so uber overpowered with their 2-3sec cast / 15+ sec recharge spells and "passive" energy gain when they KILL something. ooOOOoOoOo

edit: oh and I did notice a lot of necro farming builds have energy management skills built into them.... channeling seems to see a lot of use in N/Me farming builds

street peddler · Jun 14, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

i really like the weapon spell buff for ritualists, very nice.

Bryant Again · Jun 14, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

ummmm no.
my monk doesn't, 5e spells and divine favor bonus see to that.

...Because you're using 5e spells. I wouldn't have to worry about e-management for a necro if all of my necro's skills were 5e as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

55s and earth farmers don't either, but then, they don't have to worry about health either T.T (yea 55s have skills for e-management but they're passive, set it and forget it)

Solo farming builds don't count.

Forgot to add that I actually look forward to the new SR change. It was annoying to have another enemy die just under 5 seconds. 15 seconds will be much easier to track, and is more reliable. Of course, we'll have to wait and see.

Aera Lure · Jun 14, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I never thought I'd say it, but I think its finally time to divorce PvP from PvE in terms of skill balancing. Have both use the same skills obviously, but the skills would function a bit differently and be balanced a bit differently in each. The play modes no longer work together such as to be balanced as one.

I'd say just go ahead and sever the ties already. Balance the skills for PvP play. The way SR works in PvP does not have to equal the way it works for PvE. Same goes for the armor cap issues brought about by Paragon teams. Hard mode is so completely different than the way PvP works that its becoming a problem trying to balance the skills for both environments simultaneously.

If I move to Battle Isles, the PvP skill balance text shows up in my skill list, as do the changes to my professions attribute functionality. If I am in PvE, I have that skill list text in the skill descriptions. The differences would not be huge and skills would more or less work the same in each application, its simply then that you can have a skill have a certain cost and recharge time in one context vs a different set in another. Same for the armor cap, same for the SR functionality. Ad infintum.

The result is more fluid, creative and graceful builds in PvE - less cookie cutter monotony - as well as more balanced and tightly built teams in PvP that rely on synnergy and careful planning and play to win - not gimmick builds exploiting flaws or lack of testing. As it is now, both sides complain of horribly unbalanced, overpowered, underpowered, nerfed skills and builds, and the glory days of times past when things were better. Its all a result of trying to keep the two perfectly in sync. I no longer think it is possible and the game suffers on both sides as a result.

TabascoSauce · Jun 14, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

To Archon.

You hit the nail on the head with one statement - energy from creatures when they die.

It stands to reason that as your skill increases, SR becomes more efficient. In PvE, if you are in a terrible PuG, then SR will not trigger because your party will be wiped out at first encounter. If you are in an awesome guildie party, then SR will be triggering all the time because you are knocking down Mobs.

The above analysis does not apply to PvP because the exploit mentioned involves controlling and scheduling the SR reward. Your statement implies PvE focus, so we can stick to that. Deaths are common in PvE anyway, as opposed to PvP.

That points to one conclusion - SR effect is directly based on player vs monster capability. If a player is winning, then your point of energy management is irrelevant - the player will win anyway, regardless of class because they are experienced or higher level.

On the other hand, if the player is not winning, then your point of energy management is irrelevant. You're out.

That is why SR balancing in PvE is nonsense - monsters cannot be compared to players and need advantages such as level 28 half cast super regen to challenge us. PvP is where SR balance comes in and can be measured.

As we went over for 100 pages in the SR thread - if Necros were more powerful/useful than other primaries, then where were the dominant Necro builds? That is what arcanemacabre is saying - they werent there, and we can safely state that the community is good at finding imba builds - see every FotM regular as clockwork in response to nerfs.

Necros did not need this nerf.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

D8tura · Jun 14, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Healers Wisper

I hate the SR changes, I tested this out last week and it made my energy management in PvE worse not better!

how did you test this out when it was not implemented ? just curious.....

Kool Pajamas · Jun 14, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

There was a time right before the SR nerf when many teams in HA were using necros as their primary and using other classes skills because of soul reaping. So yes it was a problem. People dont use necro builds in pve because in pve people dont care about energy management as much. After you kill a mob you stop to regen if needed.

Quantum Duck · Jun 14, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

That points to one conclusion - SR effect is directly based on player vs monster capability. If a player is winning, then your point of energy management is irrelevant - the player will win anyway, regardless of class because they are experienced or higher level.

An interesting note about imposing a cap rather than an actual nerf:

If a group is playing badly and nothing is dying, the cap has no effect. Pre or post cap, the gains are still 0 and the cap makes a total difference of 0 energy.

If a group is playing badly and only managing to bring down one enemy per significant amount of time, the cap has no effect. They will never hit the cap, so the total difference is at or near 0.

If a group is playing efficiently, a case in which SR was producing crazy amounts of energy, the cap kicks in and keeps the energy gain rate at a reasonable maximum. At this point, the difference is based on how rediculous the gain rate of a particular situation used to be. The final result is still extremely high, but not nearly as high as the previous excessively high number. Of course, high gains added to the fact that enemies are already dropping like flies means that even higher gains really aren't needed.

So you've just nullified your own arguement. If the players are as bad as you suggest, the cap makes no difference because they'll never hit it. And you've just stated that if they are winning, they would be winning anyway, so the cap won't stop them from winning. Those somewhere in the middle (like me) will occationally be nudged by the cap a bit, but not enough to really be effected except that I can't bring an extra spam skill to through around for no other reason that that I can afford to. Therefore in all meaningful cases, the cap makes no meaningful difference. It simply serves as a tiny bump in the road to (slightly) slow down a few steamroller builds (SS anyone?) that were silly and needed a nudge anyway.

Dione Davore · Jun 14, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I like most of what they want to change.

I'm only a bit dissapointed that they don't do anything against ritu-spikes now and decided to take a look a bit longer. It's quite annoying that every ritualist spike that sees that they are losing starts running around like crazy. I get a necro-spike deja vu.