Curse

sag.gw · Jun 15, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

this is the problem... i don't want to be subjective to this bot-spamming "go to my website to buy gold" crap while playing a game.

Dawgboy · Jun 15, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Way to go, Einstien- giving the gold-selling site even more publicity.

(That means black out the names/site in your pic, please. And yes, they are very annoying.)

Kool Pajamas · Jun 15, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Ah dont worry I've seen other people in game advertising for less. haha.

Oh and all those ones you see advertising are demo accounts. Reporting doesnt do any good to those. Go and try to trade with one and you'll see.

pork soldier · Jun 15, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment, stay with me as long as you can.

Say I make $30 an hour at work, say in an hour I could also make ~20-80k Guild Wars gold if I try really hard and I have sufficient starting capital. Assume also that I only make ~80k an hour on certain parts of Friday and Saturday, the rest of the week I'm closer to an average of ~20k/hr if I'm lucky.

Given this info let's assume I can make ~35k an hour averaged over the week and that I can play ~12 hours a day.

Let's see, it's going to take me ~30 hours (28.6) to make 1M - that assumes I have a very large pool of starting capital and that I'm relatively lucky. This is generous, it's more likely that it will take twice as long (60 hours) or longer.

Split that difference, say I can make 1M in ~45 hours of play time. I could have made $30 * 45 = $1350, less the 30% govt cut, = $945 take home.

1M costs $140-165 at certain sites, where is my incentive to make in-game money? Taking the time to grind for cash is boring, why do it? I have a good job for a reason (I paid my dues up front), why not leverage that to make my life better?

</devil's advocate>

Seriously, if you want to stop people taking shortcuts in games you're going to have to address the fact that we can take shortcuts IRL with our money - it's the same damn principal, life (and games) aren't fair.

edit: Until you start linking the account to the person's locality and identity (ie: a secured biometric logon), and linking account rewards to skill instead of time spent, you're going to have problems with people buying and selling outside the game. Get. Over. It.

If you prevent transfer of items between accounts you're going to see services where people play your account for you, it's that simple.

Necrotic · Jun 15, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Yay! YABT-

I'm sure Anet really wants to eliminate 70% or more of its monthly income (botters have to constantly buy new accounts)....and yes...they really are that big a generator.

klrk · Jun 15, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

i tell ya
more loot scale , more bots
and gold getting more expensive
period

Patrick Smit · Jun 15, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

The bots effectively buy more copies of GW than you do, you get no vote.

You really think they buy accounts?

Destinyy · Jun 15, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Split that difference, say I can make 1M in ~45 hours of play time. I could have made $30 * 45 = $1350, less the 30% govt cut, = $945 take home.

1M costs $140-165 at certain sites, where is my incentive to make in-game money? Taking the time to grind for cash is boring, why do it? I have a good job for a reason (I paid my dues up front), why not leverage that to make my life better?

Simple... You own 10 accounts and run bots on all of them, that way you sit and chill out by your swimming pool while your bot accounts make you $1400 per 45 hours... or run 20 accounts, or 30, or 40... this is how bots work... more accounts making gold for 1 person, if an account gets banned he just buys another 1...

Keithark · Jun 15, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

All they have to do is make gold and/or items easy to get and nobody would go to e-bay. All they would have to do is put skills the way they were before all nerfs, take out scatter and take out loot scale and problem with bots solved. If they did all that you could farm 1million in 4-5 hours

Miral · Jun 15, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

So your solution to gold selling is to make gold worthless. Brilliant.

lol sorry I read this and I see: "so your solution to make gold not have real world worth is to make gold not have worth?" I know thats not quite how you meant it, but it certainly looks like that heh.

really though, gold is only used for two things. 1) buying just-for-looks weapon skins, and buying skills. 2) paying someone else to play the game for you. would it be that bad if gold didn't have worth at all? now, here's a possible solution, the one they're doing with dungeon runners... make it so you can't trade gold. no gold trading, no gold sellers. pretty simple yah? other trades can still go on with a barter system (i'll trade you my mini bone dragon and mini asura for your mini gwen! etc)... now what about rare materials... make em sellable on the rune traders only, this will also have the double effect of making the price reflect supply and demand better. finally, gold will still exist and still drop for you and still reward it from quests, and still be required for armor crafting and skill buying. it may not be a perfect solution, but it is one based off of an original ncsoft idea.

Miral · Jun 15, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

You really think they buy accounts?

they "buy" accounts from normal people with in-game gold, the normal people buy em from ncsoft. i'm sure you've seen the kamadan spam of BUYING GW ACCOUNTS...

Miral · Jun 15, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by sag.gw

this is the problem... i don't want to be subjective to this bot-spamming "go to my website to buy gold" crap while playing a game.

you should probably black out the website name in the screenshot, all you're doing is promoting their business for them lol

Necrotic · Jun 15, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

You really think they buy accounts?

I know they do. How you ask?

Because it's the only reliable way for them to have an account to trade and earn gold with at any time. I suppose you think that all gold seller sites use hacked accounts or something.

Interesting idea Miral....the problem is that when you remove one common trade item as a monetary equivelant, something else takes its place. Ever play City of Heroes? There is no "gold" or "money" in the game, but influence points can be traded....and about a week after release...everyone just called it money. I don't even think it took that long for everyone to realize that it was the equivelant. Whether the item is an icon represented by a gold coin or a glob of ecto-plasm or an iron ingot....if it is tradeable...it is money. Could you imagine there being a website where you can buy with real cash, multiple stacks of cloth or iron ingots to use in game.

lyra_song · Jun 15, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Just thought id toss this in here.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/47408

A new service allows gamers to quickly trade currencies from a wide variety of popular MMO games. The marketplace--dubbed Gamer2Gamer--is the work of company Sparter, which bills the service as a way to protect both gamers and developers by supporting safe trade and recognizing intellectual property.

Although the site strictly supports direct sales of currency rather than auctions, Gamer2Gamer resembles a video game-themed Ebay. Reliability ratings accompany each seller's listing, notifying buyers of potentially dishonest dealers. Purchases can be made using credit cards or Paypal, with Gamer2Gamer providing an escrow service to guarantee a safe transaction for the buyer. After in-game delivery is confirmed by the buyer, the site releases the transacted funds to the seller, completing the sale. The service is supported across games such as Blizzard Entertainment's World of Warcraft, Turbine's Lord of the Rings Online, Sony Online Entertainment's EverQuest 2, and CCP's EVE Online.

Many argue that MMOs are simply too time-intensive for gamers with full-time jobs to compete in, and that money spent on in-game currency merely levels the field for those who spend their time working, rather than playing. Sparter seems to agree. "Whether it's a job, a partner or kids, we find that we have fewer hours to devote to our game. Sparter provides a means by which the time-challenged among us can keep gaming," reads the company's website.

"Our platform makes it possible for gamers to trade directly with each other, saving money in the process and lowering the cost of buying and playing games," said Sparter CEO Dan Kelley. The company requires users to recognize the intellectual property rights of the developers and publishers before making a transaction. "It is imperative that we protect the rights of content originators," stated Sparter chief technology officer Boris Putanec.

Competitive pricing on Gamer2Gamer has already lead to the deflation of most currencies. One player-listed World of Warcraft lot consisting of 1,000 gold was priced at $62, with the same amount on the same server running players $96 through gold-seller IGE's website.

The launching of Gamer2Gamer comes on a wave of industry discussion over MMO property exchange. Some feel that the very nature of the practice ruins the gaming experience for players who choose not to participate. In clear support of that sentiment, a Florida class action lawsuit was recently filed against IGE. Among the complaints, the lawsuit alleges that the exchange of property devalues in-game currency and puts "honest gamers" at a competitive disadvantage.

Others believe that the trade of currency is inevitable, and look to cash in on the trend. "If I can find a way for every type of person in my game to play the way they want to without adversely affecting anyone else, then that's win, win, win. And that's what we'll try to figure out," remarked Turbine executive producer Jeffrey Steefel in a Eurogamer interview last month. "We all know that something will happen in the next two to five years to business models in general, so we're paying attention to what's going on."

Despite lawsuits and steady public outcry, gold sellers everywhere are continuing to cash in. For its part, Sparter justifies the process as best it can: "Making gaming pay raises consumer awareness and decreases the cost of playing games supported by Sparter. We believe this will attract new consumers to online games. Granted, many will be newbs, but give them a chance."

Patrick Smit · Jun 15, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrotic

I know they do. How you ask?

Because it's the only reliable way for them to have an account to trade and earn gold with at any time. I suppose you think that all gold seller sites use hacked accounts or something.

Interesting idea Miral....the problem is that when you remove one common trade item as a monetary equivelant, something else takes its place. Ever play City of Heroes? There is no "gold" or "money" in the game, but influence points can be traded....and about a week after release...everyone just called it money. I don't even think it took that long for everyone to realize that it was the equivelant. Whether the item is an icon represented by a gold coin or a glob of ecto-plasm or an iron ingot....if it is tradeable...it is money. Could you imagine there being a website where you can buy with real cash, multiple stacks of cloth or iron ingots to use in game.

Part of it surely do, that some buy accounts account for ingame gold i can catch in as well, it will be cheap too, but very few will resort to spending hard cash. Keyloggers are still a good alternative to that, and are cheap too, its always cheaper than buying accounts in store.

klrk · Jun 15, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

these won't happen if anet didn't nerf farming
try check the gw 2 years ago , when people are getting rich from 55ing
do they need to buy golds ?
with all these nerfing ,loot scaling , gw golds are in great demand and worth a lot , the price is still in rise
thanks a lot for letting more bots in anet
you done well in making new player suffers

mvrander · Jun 15, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

There are only two ways that I can think of that Anet will ever be able to stop gold trading on other sites the first is if they undercut them and sell the gold for less in the guild wars shop, the other is if each skin, item, skill or armour is experience linked in PvE in a similar(ish) way to how they are faction linked in PvP.

Neither of those suggestions could ever be implemented without mass riots and their offices being firebombed by irrate 12 year olds though so I guess it'll not change.

lennymon · Jun 15, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

You really think they buy accounts?

Of course not, hence my use of the word 'effectively'. The botters haxor accts. People who dont get their accts back buy new ones...
If a=b and b=c then a=c...

Engel the Fallen · Jun 15, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I do not buy most bots run 10 day trials. It makes no sense. How would a bot burn through the game, get the elite they need, then set up to grind in that time? More so if people are running say at least 4 copies of the game, as most Chinese farming groups would.

Odds are they buy the game for next to nothing or at least Chap 1, then run to at least break even. Since ANET misses the majority of bots and confuses them for real farmers, they go unbanned, and the guys easily break even.

Why do people bot? Because the dollar is worth WAY more than Renminbi. So the people who do bot, are making a small fortune off even say a 100 dollar profit. Beats farming in the fields. No one can stop botting unless they change the way the youth of China looks to make money, as Chinese bots are no doubt the largest group in MMOs.

Dzan · Jun 16, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

All they have to do is make gold and/or items easy to get and nobody would go to e-bay. All they would have to do is put skills the way they were before all nerfs, take out scatter and take out loot scale and problem with bots solved. If they did all that you could farm 1million in 4-5 hours

Typical post of someone who has no earthly idea how basic economics works. If you make gold easy to farm, prices will increase to compensate. Gold is relatively hard to get now, so ecto is down to 5k.

If you make gold easy to get, ecto will go back up to 15k. Gold is relatively hard to get now, so a perfect rare skin sword will sell for 100k+5 ecto. If you make gold easy to get, the same sword will sell for 100k+25 ecto.

The end result is that items are just as easy or as difficult to aquire as they were before, and there will be the same amount of bots as before.

So I ask again, what is the actual harm in having other people buying gold and having bots farm it? There isn't any harm to the game economy unless there is a real gameplay balance advantage to having a lot of gold, which in Guild Wars, there is not.