Curse

Ari · Jun 11, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I started playing GW about two monthes after it's release. I've also played every campaign, but during this time I've noticed something.

GW is less about completing a story, going through missions, and doing quests.

It's more about farming, cooperative or solo (cooperative farming being elite missions, Gate of Anguish, FoW, and UW). Farming being defined as having a goal of attaining items or gold in the game.

It's more about killing other players for sport. I.E. ABing, Aspenwood, GvG, Pvp.

Not too often do you see what guild wars used to be about. Cooperative missions, quests. Events for the sole purpose of playing in the event.. not for attaining it's unique items, usually to sell back to other players for 4 times the price.

I'm going to hear people who agree with me that this is not the guild wars it used to be. What I'm not going to hear is that guild wars as it was.. is broken. I asked myself why this happened, was it major changes to the game structure?

I really don't think it was. I think it's just the player base that has changed. The old players that still play are more for farming, cooperative or solo. Or Pvp. The new players have to keep up with the Jones's as we say.. and they do the same. Sure the arrival of Eye of the North will cause things to change track a bit, until the missions are completed by the majority. Then it'll be back to farming. Back to killing other players as though this were a shooter.

So I guess I should ask.. why are you that farm.. farming at all? What for? Is it not the same as redoing missions over and over? Do you not already have 10 gold storm bows? 10 million gold? Are you just greedy? Why do you spend hours killing players on computer-generated characters? Is it because you can't kill them in real life?

Is there no one who actually PLAYS a game anymore? For the hell of playing it, without murdering people and hordeing gold. Without scamming noobs, without running bots? Am I the only game player still alive in Guild Wars?

moriz · Jun 11, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

the original GW was designed from the ground up as a pvp game. the prophecies campaign was nothing more than a massively long tutorial to teach players basic playing abilities, build up some friends for a guild, and dive into HA and GvG once they have enough money and skills. therefore, those who pvp are actually playing the game the way it's meant to be played.

as for hording gold, it's only natural. humans are greedy by nature, even if it's just virtual currency.

lastly, if you think pvp is "wrong", then you're playing the wrong game. GW's fundamental philosophy has always been: MMORPG with balanced PvP. if you want to go dash around in the field chasing butterflies (which you can do in GW as well; no one is stopping you), then you'll be better served playing something else.

Caoimhe · Jun 11, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

You contradict yourself, Moriz.

" the original GW was designed from the ground up as a pvp game."

then,

"GW's fundamental philosophy has always been: MMORPG with balanced PvP"

So which is it? A PvP game "ruined" by the PvE addition, or a MMORPG that has appeal for both types?

IRT OP: I play the game, still. I like it; I like the randomness of PuGs, and the reliability of Heroes. I like knowing that I can go almost anywhere in the game and help others, or just wander around and check out some of the great scenery. As an example, just tonight, I found a rock jutting out from a cliff in The Falls. Stand on that rock, and you have a great view of a waterfall. That's the kind of hidden-in-plain-sight gem that keeps me coming back.

Well, truthfully, it's Rurik's cheesy lines that keep me going back to Ascalon for the lulz.

MMSDome · Jun 11, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

yea I pretty much have just accomplished everything I have wanted to do which is beat all 3 campaigns on my chars stock out their heros and all that junk. Now when I log on I sit there and ask myself "What the hell am I gonna do?" I usually end up trapping stygian veil or asking people for help when conveiently no one needs it when I ask but when I am busy people do :P

Well I am whiping the dust of my BF2 disk and im firing that up

moriz · Jun 11, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

GW eventually became (at launch date) a game that appeals to both types. but it's still pretty evident that the original pve side is a poorly disguised tutorial for eventual pvp. the game itself had always been designed to handle balanced pvp from conception, since it's pretty much impossible to design a pve game and try to add balanced pvp on top of that (see: WoW, L2).

as for whether pve ruining pvp, there's actually a lot of people that agrees to that. i myself will with-hold judgement.

Cherno · Jun 11, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

The problem is that the game sustains a loyal fanbase, if you call that a problem. People who have been playing for as long as the game inception through all campaigns don't care about storyline beyond the first character going through. Once you have done it, the challenge in the game is achieving. Getting it done, quicker, faster, more efficiently. Obtaining gold, farming or PvP, titles, etc.

Those wanting to be efficient who have learned to do well with henchies and heroes find standard pugs frustrating. Most of the time not because they aren't willing to help, but because they are unwilling to put up with the BS attitudes from many pugs.

Cacheelma · Jun 11, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caoimhe

You contradict yourself, Moriz.

" the original GW was designed from the ground up as a pvp game."

then,

"GW's fundamental philosophy has always been: MMORPG with balanced PvP"

So which is it? A PvP game "ruined" by the PvE addition, or a MMORPG that has appeal for both types?

No, she doesn't contradict herself in anyway.

GW is designed with PvP in mind. PvE part, while as important, has never been the main focus of the game. PvP isn't ruined by PvE (she didn't say that, did she?), MMORPG with a focus on Balanced PvP is what GW really is.

The reason why people are mostly farming these days is because the game LACKS real end-game content. All of the end-game content we have now are more or less farming content; you get nothing other than loots from playing it. Let me explain.-

When the end-game content gives you an item as a reward for beating it, people who can't beat it but want to have such item/people who beat it but don't want the item will want to trade such item to each other. This leads to farming. Sure, you may say that for you, hard-earned rewards are better than something you buy with money. But not everyone would agree with you there.

For me, end-game content should be something fun and also worthwhile. I can't think of a way to make it worthwhile without inducing the urge for people to farm, though.

B E A S T · Jun 11, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I'm relatively new to Guild Wars (been playing round 7 months). I enjoy PvE...but almost always hate doing missions (and following the main storyline). I find just going out and exploring much more preferable then to doing a mission with a horrid plotline, cheesy cutscenes and lame instances.

I also really enjoy 12 on 12 AB, the endless possibilities of RA, and the intense challenges of GvG and HA. By saying people do PvP just to kill pixled characters is ridiculous, I do it for the fun of testing my skills and builds out against other competitve people all over the world. PvP to me in Guild Wars is almost like playing a sport, you pull for your team and are always looking for stategies to further you and your teams skills and lead you and your allies to victory! I think that is the true aspect of Guild Wars.

Finally, I farm just to get cool looking stuff! Whether it is showing off armor and minipets in Grotto or using awesome looking skins in PvP, farming allows me to get the resources I need as well as making my character more effecient overall in PvE and PvP. Although farming isnt really fun, it is necessay to some extent to get the best out of your character! I could really care less how much gold or ectos my character has in his storage...

and lol at "mudering people"

DreamRunner · Jun 11, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Guild Wars was always mostly for PvP from the start, It was untill nightfall that brought more PvE elements to it. Yes I play more PvP than PvE.

As to your question. My account is 24 months old and I actually have less than 30k in my bank. The only character I've made ready for PvP is my warrior, who has some good skins items that I've collected over time, and two sets of 15k which I've been really proud to get. I sometimes wish I could have gotten more than 2 black dyes from my time playing, picking up a superior vigor, but I guess its all luck.

My warrior can't really find anywhere profitable to farm with the introduction of HM, so ask the 55 monks that question on the farming.

Ari · Jun 11, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

I've been wrong this whole time then.

I started playing games on the PC with Morrowind. I liked it alot and still do, but it was too quiet. No one else around except the NPCs.

GW solved that, and yet.. it isn't what it used to be back then. Since the focus of what used to be pve-only or pvp-only has changed to pve->pvp, as Moriz says.

I'm not a person who cares for killing player-controlled characters. Fake AI.. NPC, monster.. sure. Not people. It makes you callous. It makes you forget that they're people at all. It makes you see people as machines, as AI. As NPCs. Sure it's fun to kill them. That's the very reason ..that it's fun to kill them.. that I wanted to play pve only.

Maybe you're right.. I've been wrong this whole time. Guild wars isn't pve at all. Are there any left out there that are?

wayn3h · Jun 11, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

I've said it before and I'll say it again. GW has introduced the best balanced PvP to date in an MMO and it does it really well. However, those looking for an amazing PvE experience are sadly looking in completely the wrong game.

Ari · Jun 11, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I repeat.. are there any games out there without PvP, and yet have other people? Are there?

Voltaire · Jun 11, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

I'm not a person who cares for killing player-controlled characters. Fake AI.. NPC, monster.. sure. Not people. It makes you callous. It makes you forget that they're people at all. It makes you see people as machines, as AI. As NPCs. Sure it's fun to kill them. That's the very reason ..that it's fun to kill them.. that I wanted to play pve only.

For me, my enjoyment of PvP comes from the fact that I don't think of them as AI. I know they're dynamic people with the same intelligence as me (more or less

). Its like chess, but instead of knocking the opposing piece over when you outclass an opponent, you do a flashy animation that says Final Thrust.

And Ari, as far as I know most online games are equipped with some at least rudimentary form of PvP. Admittedly, I don't know very far so I may very well be wrong.

FoxBat · Jun 11, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Nonetheless PvE is wildly more popular. Your post just invited those comments by implying the PvP types were "wrong-headed" when this was initially something that GW marketing emphasized and they continue to support (somewhat). For one do you notice the slant of most of the articles they put up on their website?

The simple fact of the matter is that alot of people are bored of Rurik's speech the 500th time through it, so questing and missions aren't what is keeping them here. What is (for PvE), is the allure of playing slot machines with repetitive farming runs, or grinding out special titles and skills. These distant carrots keep many entertained when the novelty of exploration has faded because you've already explored everything.

Skyy High · Jun 11, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

People beat the storyline, and move on. It's either farm for cool stuff (or just for the sake of farming), or pvp, that's all the endgame there really is.

Miral · Jun 11, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Why do people keep saying GuildWars has always been strictly about PvP? Has anyone ever looked at the advertising? It is about being able to play and enjoy both pvp and pve. here's a couple quotes from my pre-order box.

Quote:

In a world fraught with conflict... Where the human kingdoms are all but destroyed... Where guilds will sacrifice all they have for a chance to control the Hall of Heroes...

ok, thats pvp. next quote.

Quote:

A champion will rise form the ruins of a once-proud empire to lead his people out of the ashes and fulfill an ancient prophecy.

that would be the flameseeker prophecy, which is what the PvE campaign is about.
and the final quote that says it all, from the game's features:

Quote:

It's about always having fun.
With personally spawned missions for all groups, Guild Wars focuses on what's fun in a role-playing game: fighting monsters, playing with and against other players, and finding that next great item. Negatives like traveling time, high death penalties, and spawn camping have been removed.

So now can you see that Guild Wars is about PvE AND PvP? And what Ari says is correct. It used to be about having fun, but now all anyone ever cares about is winning and screwing over everyone else.

Ari · Jun 11, 2007, 04:39 AM // 04:39

I see.. I guess what I'm trying to say is..

There are no games to challenge your self without making your self better than other people. Except for crosswords and sudoku.. and forgive me, but I'm not for those. I thought GW was an rpg, a pve game with some pvp that was removed from the pve portion and therefore could be ignored by me. I thought.. way back when.. that GW was a challenge for your self.. to show you could learn how to be an excellent player, and help other players, without the need to compare your self to others and/or compete against other people. Titles.. yes titles are somewhat of what I'm trying to say. They prove to you that you were capable of completing them.. although some people may flash them off to others, but the point is..

vanquisher, guardian, protector.. those are spirit of the GW I used to play. Challenging yourself without the need to kill other real people to do it. Problem is.. those particular titles as an example.. are completed most enjoyably.. with other people working for the same goal. If 99% of players are most interested in peer vs peer to challenge themselves.. what's the point in having those titles at all except to frustrate the one odd person who challenges themselves.. me. Hah. How sadistically perfect.

Scutilla · Jun 11, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

I started playing GW about two monthes after it's release. I've also played every campaign, but during this time I've noticed something.

GW is less about completing a story, going through missions, and doing quests.

It's more about farming, cooperative or solo (cooperative farming being elite missions, Gate of Anguish, FoW, and UW). Farming being defined as having a goal of attaining items or gold in the game.

It's more about killing other players for sport. I.E. ABing, Aspenwood, GvG, Pvp.

I'm not sure what you mean. Guild Wars hasn't changed a bit- go back and replay Prophecies and it will be almost exactly the same game you played through two years ago, minus a few improvements and changes here and there.

If you're talking about Factions or Nightfall, I'll admit that the Factions story is considerably shorter than Prophecies, but Nightfall is just as long, with far more quests. Nightfall may have more attractive loot due to market prices, but Prophecies is the most farmer-friendly thanks to things like single-profession mobs (troll/minotaur farming, anyone?) And while both campaigns added new PvP modes (ABs, FA/JQ, and Hero), the majority of the PvP population is in RA/TA, HA, and GvG. So it's not the new content that's changed what Guild Wars is about. (I realize that's sorta what your OP was saying, in a convoluted way.)

If anything's changed, it's players' perceptions. Not the entire player base like you say, but individuals- people go through the PvE story, and eventually some of them get bored and either try farming or PvP or move on to a different game. But at the same time there are constantly new players joining, that start out with the PvE story just like you did.

Heck, there are even still old-timers (such as myself) that play GW for the story, missions, and quests, and not farming or PvP. (Not that there's anything at all wrong with either activity.)

Quote:

Not too often do you see what guild wars used to be about. Cooperative missions, quests. Events for the sole purpose of playing in the event.. not for attaining it's unique items, usually to sell back to other players for 4 times the price.

Trust me, for most people it was never about the event itself- people were item-crazy even back in Halloween '05

Quote:

vanquisher, guardian, protector.. those are spirit of the GW I used to play. Challenging yourself without the need to kill other real people to do it. Problem is.. those particular titles as an example.. are completed most enjoyably.. with other people working for the same goal. If 99% of players are most interested in peer vs peer to challenge themselves.. what's the point in having those titles at all except to frustrate the one odd person who challenges themselves.. me. Hah. How sadistically perfect.

99% of the player population being PvP? Hardly. It's probably more of a 50/50 distribution, if not PvE downright having more. And there are plenty of people who do both, as well.

Are you referring to having trouble finding people to play with? That's probably more due to heroes and the general poor quality of PUGs than anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

I thought GW was an rpg, a pve game with some pvp that was removed from the pve portion and therefore could be ignored by me.

And how is PvP intruding on your PvE experience?

Div · Jun 11, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

You've probably noticed this, but this game has much less replayability than a lot of other RPGs out there. What does a person do after beating the game once on his main character? Play it again? Repeat. What then after going through pretty much the exact same quests 8+ times in a row. To keep the people playing, Anet has added stuff like PvP and farming/titles. The reason why the player base is leaning away from "questing for the fun of it" is because it's simply not fun after doing it a dozen times or more. The new players see these old players farming/PvPing and they want to be more like them, so they're less inclined to play through the game as it was.

InfernalSuffering · Jun 11, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

Why do you spend hours killing players on computer-generated characters? Is it because you can't kill them in real life?

I don't kill people in real life because it is illegal and it is morally wrong. Anybody can kill with a gun. It takes little to no skill. Guild Wars on the other hand does. And it isn't illegal. And no actions are final. If I kill Bob he will respawn in two minutes (unless I ownnzz and dp him out =P) and he can always play again. This comment is just plain ridiculous. I spend hours on computer generated characters because for me Guild Wars is still FUN. Well, let me make myself more clear. Guild Wars is exciting. Going an intense GvG vs a closely rated guild still gets me excited and to me excited is synonymous to fun.