Curse

icymanipulator · Jun 16, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Agreed with Navaros 100%.

I have to figure all the complaints on balance are coming from looking at this from a PvP perspective. Anything that improves the game experience in PvE particularly HM at this point is a positive thing, not a negative.

NinjaKai · Jun 16, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouveur

I tested it with Cry of Pain.

Cry of Pain casted normally with Sunspear rank 9 : 92 damage.
Cry of Pain casted with Signet of Illusion and 16 in Illusion Magic : 104 damage.

Looks like it worked as I thought it would. Even though it is in the unlinked section. These skills still uses a the scaling mechanic with the title tracks as the attribute. Switching it to illusion magic attribute when signet of illusion is used.

Hyper Cutter · Jun 16, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodofAcid

I can't see them leaving that derv skill as is, I mean come on, let's be real now. This gives the ability to have permanent avatars. Do you really think they're going to allow that loophole to stay? I don't.

They should, since these are PVE-only skills and thus can't mess with PVP...

LifeInfusion · Jun 16, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

As I said on GuildWiki, the mesmer skills Cry of Pain and Ether Nightmare are atrocious, if not underwhelming.

Cry of Pain:
Oh look, it is Cry of Frustration with basically double the damage. Too bad it interrupts one target.
The damage is not anything extraordinary. Enfeebling Blood + Oppressive gaze with 16 blood + Awaken the blood does more damage than the 40...88 damage scale of the skill which equates to 100 damage at 10 sunspear rank.
The only saving part of the skill is the area of effect. In the area is larger than the adjacent range, obviously but the recharge of 20 seconds is a hamper to the skill.
If anything, the skill should be bumped down to 15 recharge and augmented to include an area of effect interrupt. Even with Mantra of Recovery the 8 recharge at 15 base recharge isn't making it a killer skill.

Ether Nightmare
Degen cap means max 10 degen. Oh too bad, nobody is going to want that if they are running burning or any form of spreadable degen since you are basically just spamming bleeding, disease, or apply poison then. I grant that it is much harder to remove since it is a hex.
However, it lasts 10 seconds and has a 25 recharge.
10 degen *10seconds = 200 whole damage, hurray.
Couple this with the fact that if the mob doesn't have energy loss then it is basically worthless. It should be area of effect energy loss at the very least. Then it would be worth talking about a bit more.

icymanipulator · Jun 16, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Actually I perceived the benefit of Cry of Pain to be that its unlinked. Sure you can't AB or PvP with it, but that single interrupt with a nice blanket of 100 damage is real nice. I agree the cooldown could be less but I think the skill is awesome.

pigdestroyer · Jun 16, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

so, this is what pve people wanted all along, overpowered skills that would let them mindlessly butcher through mob after mob.

dont ever complain about balance ok? thx.

gg-gl-hf · Jun 16, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I don't get why so many ppl are excited about obviously overpowererd skills like these. Probably a lack in skill to play the game "as is"?
Come on, HM or any other endgame content is supposed to be difficult...face it by showing some skill, not by relying on IMBA skills which in the end don't require much skill to get the job done.
I've been almost everywhere in all three campaigns in both NM and HM, and I've yet to see an area which is impossible to do with the "old" set of skills. What's required in quite a few areas, however, is skill.

I hope A-Net will seriously overhaul some of these new skills (or the way they can be used), or PVE will become quite dull for experienced players...

Evilsod · Jun 16, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

The problem with these skills is they're either very useful in many situations or almost useless.

Never Rampage Alone... is as far as i can tell absolutely useless outside of yet another non-bow based Ranger build. So far its working quite well as a non-BM based R/P build, sadly it still needs the pet which is pissing me off.

NinjaKai · Jun 16, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nukey

No it doesn't. The avatars only got messed with because of PvP. Stripping enchantments off of the monsters in PvE isn't really amazing, but in PvP it can be a big deal. If you nerf this skill so it doesn't deal with avatars then it's a useless skill and there won't be a single dervish to include it on their skill bar. It will be a bad "normal" skill compared to something like Heart of Holy Flame and an abysmal "PvE only" skill. If they want to get rid of the avatar recharge (which they shouldn't) then a whole new skill will need to be created as this one will be useless.

I'm not sure why there are some people screaming "OMG unlimited avatar!!!". In the majority of PvE groups I've played with the dervish will always say "give me 20 seconds for my avatar to recharge" and the group waits. In PvP you can't do that.. but these skills don't work in PvP.

I can understand that some people want to make it so you can't have a bunch of these skills on your skill bar, but why on earth do you want to nerf the skills themselves? It's not like they make you invincible or anything close to it. They don't detract from the PvE experience at all; they improve it.

I am a PvE player primarily. However, I find the idea of constant avatars rather silly. I want Guild Wars to be fun not easy. I mean where is the fun in being able to trample through everything that comes your way. And do you actually think ANet will let you have constant immunity to conditions of Melandru avatar, infinite running capability of Balthazar avatar, etc. I don't want to join groups in missions with people expecting me to have infinite avatar of whatever available.
Heck you only need rank 1 in the title to use this skill effectively. I would say thats detrimental to the purpose of even having skills that rely on title rank. After all no one actually intends to use this skill for its damage.

Nukey · Jun 16, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

I see what you're saying with the ranking. I won't get in to the arguement of whether or not Avatars are really as good as people think they are... but if they did decide to make this skill not effect avatars, they would need to scrap it completely and start over because it would go to the trash can. It would also raise questions about the assassin SS skill which is better than the dervish skill and an avatar combined.

Navaros · Jun 16, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by gg-gl-hf

I don't get why so many ppl are excited about obviously overpowererd skills like these. Probably a lack in skill to play the game "as is"?
Come on, HM or any other endgame content is supposed to be difficult...face it by showing some skill, not by relying on IMBA skills which in the end don't require much skill to get the job done.
I've been almost everywhere in all three campaigns in both NM and HM, and I've yet to see an area which is impossible to do with the "old" set of skills. What's required in quite a few areas, however, is skill.

I hope A-Net will seriously overhaul some of these new skills (or the way they can be used), or PVE will become quite dull for experienced players...

Must take exception to the statement "only those who lack skill at the game are excited about these skills".

Every single enemy in HM is extremely IMBA therefore giving strong skills to the player is only fair. It does not make HM "easy", it just makes it somewhat balanced for the player.

Sure HM is "possible" to do without the skills, but it is also a major pain in the butt having to use Heroes/Henchies to get through every single darn area of HM because there is virtually never anyone else to party with. This makes the game turn from being fun to being a work-like chore. These Sunspear skills alleviate this problem somewhat. This having to rely on sub-par AI bots for HM has already made PVE dull for many experienced players; the Sunspear skills are a step in the right direction for making it not-so-dull any more.

Quote:

I don't want to join groups in missions with people expecting me to have infinite avatar of whatever available.

The scenario proposed in the above quote would never actually happen.

Absolutely no one is ever going to care if you have an unlimited Avatar or not. No one will ever be excluded from a party for that specific reason. People in normal mode who PUG aren't fussy about who they take. The fussy people (not that there is anything wrong with being fussy, good players usually are) don't bother to PUG - they use Heroes and Henchies.

And due to the lack of availablity of players in HM, HM players are not fussy either about who they take so unlimited Avatar won't be an issue there either.

As for wanting GW to be fun and not easy: GW has always been extremely easy to trample through 100% of everything in normal mode; these Sunspear skills don't suddenly make it easy or affect that truism in any way.

Horible · Jun 16, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Remember all:

They are still looking at the community's reaction and the balancing of skills

Don't jump to the conclusion that everything is set in stone.

Horible

icymanipulator · Jun 16, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Anyone got Al Sharpton and Harvey Birdman on speed dial? Mobs have rights too!!!

sindex · Jun 16, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Quick comment from James Phinney, the lead designer:

The PvE-only skills are guaranteed to change. Necrosis, for instance, is not going to stay as it is. So, don't get to attached to them just now, and DO share your feedback, please.

Please don’t, Gaile and the A-net Dev team.

I can understand a buff, but a nerf to these skills is kind of absurd unless it is absolutely justified. I can actually make this excuse now because these skills have no effect over PvP.

You see there are some monster skills that are already godly and have yet to be nerfed themselves (or some of these environment effects). For instance look at Shiro’s, “Impossible Odds” or Torment Demons, “Call or Torment” combined with environment effect areas such as Gates of Madness, “Depths of Madness.” A combination of these two effects and skills makes it already tough enough to find a way in conquering some of these areas (in normal mode). Otherwise you guys will be basically saying; “The AI does not have to play by the rules and can cheat, but the player base has to respect those rules.” I know we can dispute the fact that it takes skill in some of these areas. However for the majority, these skills maybe is what ends up having some people actually try Hard Mode (like in RoT).

pies of doom · Jun 17, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

These skills have only just been implemented and already theres talk of nerfs. Am i the only one that thinks this is a bit crazy? I mean come on, Anet spent how long 'testing' these skills and gaile says they could be changed even as early as this weekend?? Im sorry but what have u people been doing while 'testing' these skills? Surely you mustve realised that the derv SS skill would allow for an avatar to be kept up permanently? And are the avatars really that overpowered anyway? The downtime is only 30 secs or so anyway so is it really that big of a deal? As for the other skills, 3 of them are enchantments and therefore prone to being removed. The warrior, ranger and mesmer skills i hardly feel are overpowered anyway, just nice additions to a skillbar. The binding ritual is hardly overpowered either and with a 3 sec cast time its interruptable. The paragon shout finally gives paragons back some effectiveness after the big "Incoming!" nerf and yeah i can see necrosis being a bit of a problem due to its spammability but the damage is conditional. Maybe make it require a hex AND condition to be on the foe? Or mayb just a longer recharge? And then it would be fine. Anyway thats just my input on the matter.

John Bloodstone · Jun 17, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I think the people complaining about the pve skill nerfs should re-read the official game update notes again:

We will be evaluating these new skills over the course of the next week. It is likely that we will make playbalance adjustments to them during that time.

So don't say changes to these skills come as a surprise. I don't think ANet could have been much clearer about their intentions.

I think the new skills are a great addition to the game that should hopefully appease the pve crowd who wanted some more exciting skills to play about with. My only criticism would be that some of the skills seem like slightly more powerful, rebadged skills that we already have. I think pve skills should be unique. Also, a limit of one factions and one nightfall skill per bar would make more sense...

GodofAcid · Jun 17, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I think the para skill should be left alone, and I'm not just saying that for my own benefit. I'm saying that because as I stated before, this made paragons relevant again. This will allow paragons the opportunity to find parties in areas where they were shunned before. I haven't tried out any of the other skills so I can't really speak to those classes. However, any skill that allows a class to become a real part of the game again should be left intact in my opinion. Perhaps take a bit off the top if you feel it's too overpowering, but not too much, leave it at a point where it will continue to make that class desired in pve. I'm looking forward to a point where there is no "right" party for any area. Every class will bring something desirable to the table.

icymanipulator · Jun 17, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Neither the necro or the mesmer skill is "make or break" just nice to have additional sources of damage on the bar. If they nerf them I just won't use them, pretty simple really. Getting to R10 SS was a piece of cake on the double weekend it won't hurt my feelings in the least to have "wasted" 10 hero skill points.

sindex · Jun 17, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

I think the people complaining about the pve skill nerfs should re-read the official game update notes again:

We will be evaluating these new skills over the course of the next week. It is likely that we will make playbalance adjustments to them during that time.

So don't say changes to these skills come as a surprise. I don't think ANet could have been much clearer about their intentions.

I think the new skills are a great addition to the game that should hopefully appease the pve crowd who wanted some more exciting skills to play about with. My only criticism would be that some of the skills seem like slightly more powerful, rebadged skills that we already have. I think pve skills should be unique. Also, a limit of one factions and one nightfall skill per bar would make more sense...

Your opinion is noted, but I think your one of the few who wants to take that extra beat down, or you are severely skilled in PvE. There are some people out there that want that extra edge or need it. I think some of these of these skills are fine as is, and as I have said before, “the AI is not as smart as you think but they do have some skills that are godly (and yet to have been nerfed or touched).”

Evilsod · Jun 17, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

The obvious question is... what sort of changes? Are they going to attempt to nerf some of them (more like balance...) so they're not stupidly overpowered. Or are they gonna try and make the more useless ones.... well useful.

Never Rampage Alone is almost useless. Especially to a bow ranger. It needs to have the pet requirement removed to be at all useful. Triple Shot seriously needs the reduced damage to be lowered. Most people don't have high ranks in Allegiance, giving people a skill that is almost no better than many other already existing skills is a bit pointless, even at the max level its not much better.

Ether Nightmare is just awful, seriously what the hell were they thinking when they made this? For a start it causes degen... degen which curiously enough will stop been useful very quickly because Searing Flames does much the same with the added benefit of destruction. This skill needs to be turned into health loss, not degeneration if its going to stand any chance of been used.
Cry of Pain is just the pre-nerf Spiritual Pain combined with Lightbringers Gaze pretty much. Can be combined with Intensity too for 25% more damage. Extremely powerful none-the-less.

There's Nothing to Fear... this is just ridiculous. It makes the primary paragon even more boring to play because now you have to focus even more on spamming GftEs in order to keep it up. Plus its just going to get abused with They're on Fire and Save Yourselves to make for a completely overpowered ~90% damage reduction. Expect to see a cap put in place on damage reduction too. Spear of Fury is actually quite a good skill, as far as been good without been completely ott goes, this is 1 of the best.

Critical Agility. This is basically what every single attack based profession wanted. Dervish no longer has the downtime it gets with Heart of Fury. Warrior no longer loses move speed as with Flail. Assassins get the ability to tank like everyone seems to desire... Paragons get perma IAS thanks to GftEs, Rangers get the short end of this stick. There IAS's are all pretty bad. This skill sorts it out to a point, but critical hits are still hard to come by and the attack speed is extremely slow in comparison. The other seems to be a poor version of Feigned Neutrality.

The Necro skills didn't seem to be all that great looking imo. 1 of them looked like a combination of Sig of Sorrows and Lost Souls combined with a Signet of Suffering. As far as the energy gain goes, Lost Souls still wins. The other seems to be pretty much, Discord.

Dervish ones... well 1 of them gives you a permanent Avatar, which is nice. The other just seems to be a stronger Heart of the Holy Flame and Vow of Strength. As if the Scythe wasn't unbalanced enough as it is.

Elementalist ones.......... seriously... why? They've been stating that they were going to give Mesmers a hand in PvE. So what do they do? Give Elementalists a spell to up there damage by 25%! Then for kicks chuck in another that gives them 2 more on each attribute! Why take a mesmer, even if its using echo Cry of Pain, when you can just take another overbuffed SF ele?

And the Warrior skills. 1 of them seems to be an adren based Cyclone Axe, the other an insanely overbuffed Watch Yourself. Most likely to be abused by a Paragon or a Dragon Slash warrior.

Some of these skills need toning down... some need to be completely reworked... some just need buffing. It just begs the question. What the f*ck have Anet been testing these last few months? They've been balancing them according to Gaile... this is the balanced product? Bullshit.