Curse

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

Thats not quite right. It should read 'People (who are not warriors) like Save Yourselves'. The standard warriror reaction to seeing this skill is 'buff others only , not me? that sucks'

I think you missed the point... Warriors have plenty of armour already. This skill is intended to help the backline casters. However the point still stands, people like it. Primary Warriors who obviously aren't team players may not but that doesn't matter. Triple Shot/NRA are compltely useless... to EVERYONE.

Mouse at Large · Jun 19, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Intensity........

Up energy cost to 15 or 20
Link to Energy Storage with +3 seconds duration per skill point
Make it a Glyph

It wasn't that good before, perhaps the above might revive it.

There's Nothing to Fear..........

Return it to original duration
Make base damage mitigation 20, heal 25 at end
Add +1 mitigation and +3 heal for every point in Leadership

I'm sure there are other ways of balancing the new skills so they are still useable on secondaries, but better on primaries.

In my opinion, all that's been done so far is to give us a glimpse of some fun new combos for a couple of days, then crudely rip them to pieces.

I hope Anet will reconsider.

noblepaladin · Jun 19, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Why exactly did Mesmers get the buff anyway? Its not Ether Nightmares cost and recharge that make it suck. Its the general concept! What the hell is -4//7 degen gonna do again Hard Mode enemies.

Cry of Pain did not need a buff. Its just those f*cking mesmers whining FOR NOTHING. Cry of Pain was already overpowered at 20 seconds. Now it gets buffed to 15 seconds because for some reason the fact it can obliterate mobs already just isn't enough for them. Maybe they'd be happy i we just gave them the Base Defence skill from AB... Why exactly are Anet only listening to the Mesmer crowd?

The Mesmer team could wipe the floor with DoA mobs in 3 seconds before they buffed it.

People have been generally happy with them. Intensity/Ele Lord got overnerfed into uselessness, most people saw them as a little overpowered. Personall i saw them as more overpowered on secondary Elementalists (see Cry of Pain/Necrosis).
People like Necrosis.
People like Save Yourselves.
People like Whirlwind Attack.
People like Vampirism... sorta.
People like Eternal Aura.
People think that Triple Shot and Never Rampage Alone are absolutely bollocks. The only 1 build i found NRA to be useful for was nerfed when TNTF was made into the godmode button for Paragons only. Why are Anet not leaping to the rescue here? Where is our ranged deep wound? It may be in the works for GWEN so i can't hold that against them. Where is our decent IAS? Critical Agility was barely usable since the rate of criticals is horrible with such a slow refire. This update has brought absolutely nothing for a Ranger. I've now turned to using Prep Shot/Apply and Necrosis since its about the best we've got from the PvE skills.

Whats the deal with TNTF and Critical Agility anyway? Why exactly was Critical Agility in desperate need of that nerf... its an enchantment, its ALWAYS on top if it refreshes. It didn't stop the primary Assassin doing its job... TNTF is overpowered in general, not because of its use on secondary paragons, yet they buffed it to make it even stronger on primaries!

At the moment i have a Paragon build that basically gives a constant 28% and 33% (subject to change if i bother getting new equip/boosting Sunspear) damage reduction and a very frequenty +100 AL to all other party members.
Why do Anet seem to think that it would be great if Paragons got into PvE teams only as a godmode button? So the only way that Paragons could be made decent in PvE from Anets point of view is to take everything that was overpowered about them in 8man Paragon teams from PvP and combine it into 1 super paragon... thats extremely boring to play.

Anet haven't saved the Paragon. They've just killed it. If you aren't running TNTF now with a decent rank in Sunspear (r7 been the minimum anyway since its for Storyline) then you won't get into a team.

As of the older patch, when Intensity and Elemental Lord was stronger, there is a good reason why all the mesmers are crying. This is the patch that suppose to make them a usable class. So they got one good "nuke" type skill. However, they made Elementalists far stronger, superior to a Mesmer with Cry of Pain. Once again, there is no role for mesmers in PvE. However, after Intensity and Elemental Lord got nerfed to uselessness, the mesmer is now a decent nuker (relative to the Ele). I don't agree with making the Mesmer a nuker though, that doesn't seem to fit the profession. I would prefer something like an AoE empathy or an AoE energy drain that recharges all allies, etc. However, don't forget that Cry of Pain is not linked to Fast Casting, so other classes can use it too.

As for the "God Mode" button paragons, yeah it is unfortunate that ANet must resort to that to save the class. However is it really any worse than PvE already is? What about the "Searing Flames" button eles or the "Barrage" button B/P groups. Well Spiteful and MM necros usually rely on more than one button (2 or 3?), but they are essentially simple gimmicks too. The only people who can afford to have a little creativity in their builds before the PvE only skills were Mesmers, Assassins, Paragons, Dervishes and Ritualists because most of their skills sucked in PvE (well, maybe sucked isn't the right word, but they were definitely not "buttons" like Searing Flames).

Lagg · Jun 19, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Mesmers need Spells that disable the enemy, not Spells that do damage.

Change Cry of Pain so that when it interrupts, it disables all of an enemy's skills for 10 seconds and all of your non-Mesmer skills for 20 seconds. And make it a 1 second cast-time interrupt, so that high Fast Casting is pretty much required.

Change Ether Nightmare so that you lose all energy and target foe loses 40%...70% energy (based on your Fast Casting) and adjacent foes suffer energy degeneration, not health degeneration. Making an enemy lose 4...7 energy in PvE is utterly useless.

icymanipulator · Jun 19, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

I agree with above...sort of. The way I interpret current play in PvE is that eles are intended to be the primary damage source in a group. I don't play this way so I guess I am a weirdo. I let the tank(s) do their job as the main damage source with a plethora of support classes to back them up. How it got to the point where fire elementalists are the steamrollers while tanks just run interference (block or distract) is mind boggling. Getting away from the holy trinity in this sense at this point in the game is going to be like asking people to cut off their thumbs. When every group begins to essentially look like a Rotscale farming team there is a problem.

I think most folks forget that as good as fire eles are at raw damage you can produce just as nice an effect with weapon spells (Splinter Weapon, Wailing Weapon), punishment hexes (Mark of Pain, Empathy), conditions (Rotting Flesh, Enfeebling Blood), or even shouts ("Go for the Eyes!", "Find Their Weakness!") just for a very small few. Theres absolutely no shortage of fantastic skills/spells or combinations available, making people use them is however not the same story. Of all the potential out there Assassins will always get the short end of the stick. Hexes or conditions are better dealt from necromancers or mesmers. More heavily damaging critical hits can be applied with the right spells on a tank or barrage ranger and assassin armor is abysmal unless heavily buffed which once again a tank could do better even under the cap. As a class they just don't fill a desirable or necessary niche while all the other expansion classes can be used for some support or primary function. One or two new PvE only skills per class are not going to dramatically alter fundamental PvE team construction.

Edit: I also agree with Lagg, Cry of Pain should disable the skill. As is CoP is good but not great, and could stand to be improved.

Levi Garett · Jun 19, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by D8tura

About the only thing i'll use intensity for now is to buff my conjure weapon

Sigh - oh well

Does this work? Because I tried "beefing" damage based enchantments with Intensity and it did not work. For example it did not add damage to Shield of Jugement. I assumed it only worked for direct damage spells like EQ and such, but not enchantment based spells like Bath's Aura or SoJ?

If it does work with Conjure that would be nice, but I would question why it doesn't work with other enchantment based damage spells?

The Great Al · Jun 19, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

How did I miss this? Oh, I couldnt get onto guru yesterday. Heres my comments:

1) Two months of developing/testing these skills and they get nerfed in 3 days. Shows us how good a job Anet are doing.

2) To the people saying elems already do enough damage, they still dont deserve useless unusable skills like the nerfed PVE skills, glyph of elem power is better then both now. Elementalists are powerful in normal mode, but I thought that the idea behind the the PVE skills was to make each class better in HM.

3) My solution for intensity - keep it as it is, add +1 second duration per rank in ES.

4) Did anyone at Anet consider giving elemtalists a PVE only ward skill instead of just buffing their damage all the time? Something like 'allies inside this ward gain a 40-75% block chance and +10-25 armor'. I would have used that.

And anet expect me to buy GW:EN and GW2 after screwing my once loved game over so many times like this? I'm deffo not buying anymore GW products at all, inluding the legacy edition which I previously couldnt wait for. Thank you morons at anets development team for f****** your own game in the A** numerous times up to now.

Great post, I agree with all 4 points...although with a ward like that, they'd probably effectively kill the earth line for PvE, if it's not tied to it.

I'm not upset about the new skills because I felt that the Elems were underpowered. I'm upset because these skills have been hyped up, and because we happen to be the best damage dealers (as we SHOULD be), we don't get to use the new skills, effectively isolating us from one of the only cool things to happen between NF and GW:EN.

Du Kor · Jun 19, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I think you missed the point... Warriors have plenty of armour already. This skill is intended to help the backline casters. However the point still stands, people like it. Primary Warriors who obviously aren't team players may not but that doesn't matter. Triple Shot/NRA are compltely useless... to EVERYONE.

Unwarrented shot at me in suggesting that i am not a team player and therefore my opinion can be dismissed. I can see how easy it is to say its a good skill when you are the reciprient of it. It would be a great skill if everyone, including the shouter, could participate in the few seconds that its active.

Jetdoc · Jun 19, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

There is a good reason why all the mesmers are crying. This is the patch that suppose to make them a usable class. So they got one good "nuke" type skill.

You are completely ignoring the current version of Necrosis...it's a thing of beauty for a Mesmer.

tsnorquist · Jun 19, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

NRA are compltely useless... to EVERYONE.

I beg to differ, NRA is actually quite useful with a Spirits Strength Beastmaster Rit. Keeping Vital Weapon on yourself and brutal weapon on your pet at 25% increased speed is fantastic. The minor health buff is also quite nice.

You can essentially wand things at 25% increased speed for 40 - 70 damage, keeping brutal weapon on your pet does between 15-25 damage. This is great for pressure and a dead pet body for wells, minions, explosions, etc.

10 Beastmastery
10 Communing
14 Spawning Power

Brutal Weapon
Maiming Strike
Predatory Bond
Comfort Animal
NRA
Vital Weapon
Spirit's Strength
Charm Animal

PS: this is the only thing i found NRA useful for lmao.

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

As of the older patch, when Intensity and Elemental Lord was stronger, there is a good reason why all the mesmers are crying. This is the patch that suppose to make them a usable class. So they got one good "nuke" type skill. However, they made Elementalists far stronger, superior to a Mesmer with Cry of Pain. Once again, there is no role for mesmers in PvE. However, after Intensity and Elemental Lord got nerfed to uselessness, the mesmer is now a decent nuker (relative to the Ele). I don't agree with making the Mesmer a nuker though, that doesn't seem to fit the profession. I would prefer something like an AoE empathy or an AoE energy drain that recharges all allies, etc. However, don't forget that Cry of Pain is not linked to Fast Casting, so other classes can use it too.

I'm not saying Intensity didn't deserve to be nerfed since Eles were strong as it is. They gave us these skills. 2 things that both increase damage, something an ele has no problems with already. Instead of giving them something they actually needed they gave them that, then completely destroyed both skills 3 days later. Why even keep them in the game? Remove the damn things and give Elementalists something they actually need. In there current state nobody will miss them.
Cry of Pain was already strong enough. The Mesmers got there pre-nerf Spiritual Pain back in an overbuffed Lightbringers Gaze form. Free to construct entire builds around reducing its recharge and echoing it basically kill everything. I'm really not liking Anets outlook with regard to 'saving classes' because it just seems to go completely against what the class is designed for. They're trying to turn Assassins into Tanks. They're trying to turn Mesmers into Elementalists.

Quote:

As for the "God Mode" button paragons, yeah it is unfortunate that ANet must resort to that to save the class. However is it really any worse than PvE already is? What about the "Searing Flames" button eles or the "Barrage" button B/P groups. Well Spiteful and MM necros usually rely on more than one button (2 or 3?), but they are essentially simple gimmicks too. The only people who can afford to have a little creativity in their builds before the PvE only skills were Mesmers, Assassins, Paragons, Dervishes and Ritualists because most of their skills sucked in PvE (well, maybe sucked isn't the right word, but they were definitely not "buttons" like Searing Flames).

Searing Flames, an MM or B/P doesn't ensure victory. Enemies spreading out is the bain of Searing Flames. Massive AoE is the bain of the MM. Shields Up and anti-attack hexes are the bain of the Barrager. None of them ensure victory. TNTF/ToF/SY give a party wide 80%+ damage reduction vs armour effected skills and ~ 50-60% vs armour ignoring. Only 1 hex will actually stop you, Vocal Minority... and thats hardly common. Now people know how effective it is why would people care what you run on your Paragon? If its not godmode why would a pug take you... someone said it earlier. TNTF is now basically a fixed slot on a Paragons bar if they want to have any chance of getting a team.

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsnorquist

I beg to differ, NRA is actually quite useful with a Spirits Strength Beastmaster Rit. Keeping Vital Weapon on yourself and brutal weapon on your pet at 25% increased speed is fantastic. The minor health buff is also quite nice.

You can essentially wand things at 25% increased speed for 40 - 70 damage, keeping brutal weapon on your pet does between 15-25 damage. This is great for pressure and a dead pet body for wells, minions, explosions, etc.

10 Beastmastery
10 Communing
14 Spawning Power

Brutal Weapon
Maiming Strike
Predatory Bond
Comfort Animal
NRA
Vital Weapon
Spirit's Strength
Charm Animal

PS: this is the only thing i found NRA useful for lmao.

Lmao. That says it all really doesn't it ^^

MSecorsky · Jun 19, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I can't believe the whining about Intensity.

First off, ANet told everyone this was a trial period, so anyone who based their entire future in GW based on the first draft of the skills... well, 'nuff said.

Second, Intensity gives you 10 seconds of casting spells at +25% damage. Excuse me folks... with some of the ele skills out there, that's a lot of damage to be delivered.

Finally, this whole fuss about Glyph of Renewal and the new skill... use 'em both. You're now at +3 in say Fire Magic and adding +25% damage on top of that if you add in Intensity as well. Anyone care to calculate how much spike damage you can deliver in a ten second window? What do you people want... to map into a zone and everything dies out of fear of your presence, piling the loot up at your feet? (Sad part is... someone out there just thought "That would be nice")

Tying the skills they did to primaries is a nice touch. Some skills it wouldn't make sense to do that to, and they didn't. How many mesmers run at 16 FC, or Eles at 16 storage? Nah, this was a well thought out and balanced update. I like the new CoP skill. Making it conditional on a mesmer hex being applied first, good idea. When you combine the conundrum buff, they're a nice team.

People actually talking about quitting because skills in a trial period were adjusted for balance and we're still in the trial period! Give me a break.

fripple · Jun 19, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I'm not saying Intensity didn't deserve to be nerfed since Eles were strong as it is. They gave us these skills. 2 things that both increase damage, something an ele has no problems with already. Instead of giving them something they actually needed they gave them that, then completely destroyed both skills 3 days later. Why even keep them in the game? Remove the damn things and give Elementalists something they actually need. In there current state nobody will miss them.
Cry of Pain was already strong enough. The Mesmers got there pre-nerf Spiritual Pain back in an overbuffed Lightbringers Gaze form. Free to construct entire builds around reducing its recharge and echoing it basically kill everything. I'm really not liking Anets outlook with regard to 'saving classes' because it just seems to go completely against what the class is designed for. They're trying to turn Assassins into Tanks. They're trying to turn Mesmers into Elementalists.

Except that it's not AoE interrupt. It interrupts your target and does aoe damage. What's more, this isn't some new trick for mesmers; they have had an aoe interrupt since Prophecies, and already have several other aoe damage spells. This really isn't bringing anything to the table that wasn't already there; it's just a slightly more spike-friendly package. While I agree there are better approaches for some kind of grand mesmer buff, it's hardly changing the nature of the class to have a skill like this.

icymanipulator · Jun 19, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

Unwarrented shot at me in suggesting that i am not a team player and therefore my opinion can be dismissed. I can see how easy it is to say its a good skill when you are the reciprient of it. It would be a great skill if everyone, including the shouter, could participate in the few seconds that its active.

You are going to see Paragons make better use of "Save Yourselves!" than warriors possibly could because paragons are not on the frontline, they are frontline support.

Consider the following...

P/W
"Theres Nothing to Fear!" + "Save Yourselves!" + Focused Anger

Paragon isn't going to be right in the thick of battle due to spear range and those buffs at a distance would ALSO effect the warrior(s) or dervish(es) who will be. The tank and additional support classes would be GODLY while the paragon could maintain distance and shout till he gets laryngitis.

yukimura_gw · Jun 19, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

They kept Eternal Aura the way it was so my Dervish is still happy

Eternal Aura ia a god gift to Dervish. I just hope they don't
nerf it so it won't recharge form.

MSecorsky · Jun 19, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Triple Shot/NRA are compltely useless... to EVERYONE.

Have you tried triple shot on an assassin yet, with the new assassin skill, WoA, Keen Arrow, and that ranger stance that interrupts when you critical... whatever it's called...

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Except that it's not AoE interrupt. It interrupts your target and does aoe damage. What's more, this isn't some new trick for mesmers; they have had an aoe interrupt since Prophecies, and already hav several other aoe damage spells. This really isn't bringing anything to the table that wasn't already there; it's just a slightly more spike-friendly package. While I agree there are better approaches for some kind of grand mesmer buff, it's hardly changing the nature of the class to have a skill like this.

I think you need to read the mesmer section. The last lot of new PvE skills listed there all involved Cry of Pain and either Necrosis or Intensity (the latter probably no longer, its not even usable for an MoR Mes now). So much for the counter class. The only counter skills they had were so that they would act as a base for Cry of Pain to act off of. The skill has completely changed the nature of the class from counter to an armour ignoring Elementalist wannabe.

Quote:

You are going to see Paragons make better use of "Save Yourselves!" than warriors possibly could because paragons are not on the frontline, they are frontline support.

My last Paragon build.

Go for the Eyes
Save Yourselves
There's Nothing to Fear
They're on Fire
Spear of Fury (i really like this skill)
Focused Anger
Burning Refrain
Agressive Refrain

Well, it involves more spamming than anything i've ever seen. Its ridiculously boring to play. It gives the party almost near godmode status if the Searing Flames are burning or the attackers are attacking. At higher ranks of Allegience Spear of Fury could recharge Save Yourselves instantly under Focused Anger.

icymanipulator · Jun 19, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

My point precisely Evilsod, while boring its INSANELY good. Some people are looking at these skills from the wrong perspective. Having an unlinked warrior skill that buffs +100 armor in combination with excellent adrenaline building paragon skills = damn near invincibility. Particularly since the paragon will not be in the heat of battle but rather buffing the tanks. I think this usage of a paragon in comination with Lightbringer title at high ranks and signet or gaze would absolutely annihilate the RoT maybe even the DoA if done properly.

Edit: You wait though...now that I've written this. Anet will come along and force us to wear the Sunspear title to use the skills so we can't use the SS skills and the LB damage reduction and attack bonus at the same time.

Does-it-Matter · Jun 19, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

It's fun watching this spiral out, certain persons each adding a bit more to the "OMG the sky is falling!" attitude upon which certain others pick up and push further.

Seriously people... from the top.

Ok, 2 months to create the skills and then 1 day to change them? Most likely this is due to the typical single-minded approach one gets when they create something (similar to, but not exactly, how when you write something you see the word spelled right when it could be misspelled.)

ANet said time and time again that they wanted to give more playability to the under-used/abandoned Professions and that this update would at least push them in the right direction. The designers came up with the previous incarnation of the skills and thought (perhaps naively, or just with the single-minded approach I spoke of) that the community would go "Awesome! Let's take an Assassin and a Paragon, or a Mesmer, wow I can't decide!"

... because let's face it, although players can show you left and right how deadly the above three classes are (and how Paragons are still very viable despite the supposed endless nerfs, thanks ClawofCrimson!), the community that only wants Tanks, Nukers and 2 Monks with maybe a Necromancer will simply go "how much damage do they do?" and then laugh when they see a low-armored Melee character, an indirect caster, or a loud guy that tries to buff/protect the team (but clearly Monks do that better than everyone... right? So what's the point?)

It's not that these Professions are "dying" or limping along or what not, these skills won't "save them." They're just meant to be a bat across the Community's collective head as a gateway to actually seeing the potential of these characters.

Anyways, back on track, so ANet comes out with these skills and perhaps in their testing (either themselves, or a select group) the single-mindedness prevailed and they in fact saw an increased potential for the less-desirable of Guild Wars, and figured this was the solution. Perhaps caught up in the magic they never truly factored in how many people would go "Yes, Mr. Paragon, that is a nice skill... I'll put it on my Ele/Monk/Tank now. Thanks!" Of course they had to assume some would do it, otherwise why make it even available in the first place? I'm just betting that they didn't expect to see the numbers of how much those skills were used in Non-Paragons/Assassins/Mesmers.

So they rally together, upset to see their new fix only furthering the lack of those professions being used and change it to make it very clear: These are for Paragons, Assassins, etc.

I doubt anyone sat in the ANet meeting room and went... "Ok guys, check this out. We're going to dangle super-powerful skills in front of everybody, then heavily restrict them as soon as they start liking them!"

---

As to the rest of the skills as a whole, remember, they said this is a period of testing. I'm sure ANet is just doing the method of turning the dials up and down until they find something they like. When the skills came out, the dial was up, the second update turned the dial down. This is how you fine tune in the most broadest sense. Don't think that this is the end, ANet themselves said that.

These skills were made to augment, I doubt anyone intended them to be Skill Bar Replacements. 194+ Fire Damage and Burning to foes in a nearby range 3-6 times in 10-12 seconds. That's not powerful enough for you?

I seriously have to laugh when I read about people who say skills are useless, unusable or what not. First of all, because the skills WORK as they are listed and are able to be used, thus refuting the second term. And they're only useless if you were expecting them to do more than they do.

I mean come on... +2 to attributes limited to 5 spells (though re-castable) or +1 to attributes with no limit to spells, but its an enchantment (and Ele's have plenty of easy cover-enchantments, Aura of Restoration for instance.) Did you want it to replace GoEP? Use them both!

10-12 seconds of +25% nuking power, for 33-35 seconds of downtime. It's PvE, you can sit and wait the 35 seconds if you want. Or, you know, just have the bonus sometimes, not always? One Mob you have extra power to, then next one you don't, the third one you do again!

Series, I have to agree with you on this. They wanted a Win button.