Curse

Hobbs · Jul 03, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

My AB build can solo quite a bit of stuff, but not touchers, so if a toucher come and starts spamming his stuff on me i'll run away. If he follows me for ages that's his loss if he's chasing me for 3 minutes that's three minutes he's not doing anything to help his side, granted neither am I but w/e. Moral is :if you can't kill someone in AB run away.

Tea Girl · Jul 03, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

runner = kiter in pee we pee

..L.. · Jul 03, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I sometimes got aggravated about someone running away the so maniest time, but then again its far more satisfying slaughtering a near dead trying to retreat foe then any normal combatant..

savage vapor 33 · Jul 03, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

[QUOTE=DFrost]Trash-talking and common sense are rarely seen together in one sentence. QUOTE]

Heh agreed. Greatest moments when your a monk and you kite a war who ends up dying ultimately. GG

Nevin · Jul 03, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

So if you get 5 faction for dying...

What's the incentive to actually do anything?

If thats the case.. Whats the point of fighting the other team, if not only to risk them killing you and earning faction for your death? The player base would never degrade to the point of suiciding. Maybe at the end of a match, to score 50-60 faction more, but nothing else.

My explanation, is I'm sure you've all heard of the "dice rollers" who would rather use /roll to decide an AB battle. 99% of the time their goals is never achieved, I've had them pop up in battles only to convince 1 person to leave, themselves. People enjoy ABing, its fun form of PvP despite its many flaws. Thus people will always keep on killing and not really mind dying.

Ruricu · Jul 03, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Now running to me is like kiting, but for a completely different reason. You and opponent go mono a mono. One on one, you and him are the last of a dawning battle and all but you and him are dead. He or she cannot beat you, he has no stance removal and your stances keep you more then safe from his or her melee attacks, your damage brings him to the edge of death. He runs like a headless chicken, and then stops when you discontinue chasing him. (Now I've experienced this many times, I've waved to opponents literally 20-30 feet away from me in game who are simply sitting and letting themselves regain) Now up until this point, he has been kiting, albeit to an extent; but this is where kiting's ugly cousin "running" pops its ugly head in. He charges back at you but once again his melee attacks and skills provide him no luck, you bring him to a small sliver of HP left again. But what now? He runs away once again. He cannot beat you, he is doing nothing practical, he is merely wasting your time. Sure enough as the battle continues and you forget about this opponent (which you may), he pops up once again. You're at a res shrine sapping every second you can against an overwhelming force, every second they spend trying to kill you is a second not spent capping another cap shrine. You finally fall to the dirt, this same opponent now over come with ego and joy believing he was the soul cause of your death, now begins emoting on your defenseless corpse.

*Running is unlike kiting because, Running has no effective purpose. It does not benefit either player and is simply a childish tool of annoyance.

I disagree entirely... Let me explain.

In AB, a team receives one point when a member of their faction kills a member of the opposing faction. This being said, it's easy to see how kiting (not running, mind you), in any way, shape or form is advantageous to one's team. In your situation, had the "runner" stopped kiting, your team would have received a point. However, you implied that the kiter had the decision to either die to you or kite indefinitely. In other words, the option of giving your team a point, or not giving your team a point. Furthermore, the time you spend following said kiter is time you aren't spending capping points or killing other members of the opposing faction, thus making this a win-win scenario for the kiter. They may not be able to kill you; they may not be able to actually live after a long stint of kiting; however, those are always possibilities, and should be followed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Because touch ranger is the most nooby build in the game. You just mindlessly spam those 2 skills, with the odd running/evasion stance if need be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I hate to burst your bubble... but Touch Ranger is far from it. BoA/SP assassin type builds are the most nooby things in the game. A toucher actually needs some competance to play properly... the sin just picks some random target, cycles 1 through 6/7 and runs off to hide. You could actually set up a macro for a BoA/SP sin and it would have a very high degree of sucess...

I always laugh at people who whine in local during ABs that there opponent should stop running off... it just gives me something to laugh at.

There is a lot more thought put into the standard SP sin than you may give credit to:
You only get one kill every 20 seconds at best (or possibly 12 if you use expose). What's the best target to take out?
Since your self-healing is likely lacking, what's the probability that you will be able to cause a kill and still be able to get away?
What melee counters does your targeted opponent have? Can you bypass them?
Will they be able to get away before I can finish my combo? If yes, they will most likely live.
Do they have interrupts? If yes, they will probably interrupt one of my attack skills, due to their predictability in required to be chained.

When playing an assassin, I believe these questions must be answered before attempting a kill. However, a touch ranger requires a string of yes/no questions that need to be answered to determine effectiveness as well.

Does my selected target kite at all? If yes, they cannot be killed due to the 3/4 seconds of standing skill required to do damage.
Do they have snares? If yes, I likely will not be able to reach them to do any damage.
Do they have interrupts? If yes, they will interrupt your attempts at using Vamp Touch and Vamp Bite, since they require constant spam in order to be effective.

For both builds, these questions must be answered to determine whether or not you should attempt to kill a certain opponent. However, most people leave these questions unanswered, and thus, are branded as "noob", as they most likely should be, for not determining the strengths and weaknesses of the build they chose to play. Both builds are easily countered through interrupts, as well as specific counters for each build. Such easy countering renders both builds a label of ineffective.
However, there is one more question that must be answered. Maintaining the same primary class, can you make a better build? In regards to an assassin, it is very hard to create a build that can rival the power (and utility) of an SP sin with Expose Defenses. However, rangers have a lot more options. A Burning Arrow or Crippling Shot ranger grants a ranger a great amount of utility in the way of interrupts and snares, as well as survivability with Natural Stride, Troll Unguent, and possibly Mending Touch. The next best thing I can come up with for an assassin would be the Deadly Paradox sin with Dancing Daggers, Entangling asp, Shadow Form, etc. However, that build still suffers from the ease of interrupting key skills, due to the need to chain them. Though an SP sin may be easy to play, it, in all honesty, is one of the only assassin builds with a high rate of success that I have seen. That being said, I don't believe they should be put on the same, or even a lower level than touch rangers due to the lack of other options.

-Ruricu

Stormlord Alex · Jul 03, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruricu

In regards to an assassin, it is very hard to create a build that can rival the power (and utility) of an SP sin with Expose Defenses.
...
-Ruricu

Don't kid yourself. SP sins have *0* utility. They perform a lame, easily-countered solo-spike (which, admittedly, tears through scrubs like a wildfire), and nothing else. They cannot shut down targets, they provide no support for their team, they offer no pressure. They either kill a target, or fail misreably.

Siphon Strength is where it's at.

SS / Siphon Speed / BLS / BSS / DB / Impale and 2 optionals provides marginally less power, yet can actually do something other than kill.
SP is lame.

The Hand Of Death · Jul 03, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

I play assassin and ranger in AB and get the "noob runner" comment all the time.

As an assassin I sometimes run shadow prison, and with shadow prison I am not always able to kill my warrior target. So what I do is run around in a circle after I finish my first chain and then attack again when shadow prison recharges. I get a lot of comments from the warrior I just killed like "I would have killed you if you didn't run like a p*@!&" or "P!*#! running is for noobs." It always cheers me up to hear this stuff because here I am still standing while the guy dead on the ground is calling me a noob. They also have the fun of picking me out of a crowd just so they can feel better about themselves that they killed me, but to their dismay they die again.

As a ranger I play crippling shot often. I know when I am beat a.k.a running from a mob. So I start to run to the other side of the map to start capping and half the mob decides to start chasing me, mainly those amazing wammos, I crip shoting them and continue running and them yelling their insults at me because I am a noob runner.

Evilsod · Jul 03, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruricu

There is a lot more thought put into the standard SP sin than you may give credit to:
You only get one kill every 20 seconds at best (or possibly 12 if you use expose). What's the best target to take out?
Since your self-healing is likely lacking, what's the probability that you will be able to cause a kill and still be able to get away?
What melee counters does your targeted opponent have? Can you bypass them?
Will they be able to get away before I can finish my combo? If yes, they will most likely live.
Do they have interrupts? If yes, they will probably interrupt one of my attack skills, due to their predictability in required to be chained.

Erm... by any chance do you play an SP/BoA type assassin? Really, they're the noobiest builds in existance.

You will get 1 kill, almost guaranteed every 20/12 seconds.
This is AB. The 'best' target to take out is the 1 with the lowest armour or the primary monk, course the monk will survive if he's not an idiot and has anticipated the existance of the assassin.
What melee counters... you have Expose Defences, who cares, the likely hood the opponent is using Shield Bash or Clumsiness is slim to nill.
Do most assassin even care if the opponent has an interrupt? You attack that fast its not exactly easy to time the interrupt to hit.

I say again, SP/BoA has absolutely no skill involved AT ALL. You can become a pro at it after playing the build for 10 seconds and having an IQ with more than 1 digit.
As a Toucher you can't exactly catch that Cripshotter with his pants down... he can stop you no matter what. As an SP/BoA you can kill pretty much anyone in a single chain since they're not expecting it till its too late.