Curse

Bryant Again · Jul 05, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right.

Then why not tell them that instead of lying? I don't see any reason not to tell the truth, unless you're afraid of being booted (which is a bad reason, so you know).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

Not really. It's not so much "forcing builds down players throats" as it is "using the most effective build for the situation". If both of the monks are healing monks, I'd really prefer if one were Protection. I'd really appreciate it if the Ranger was able to put some interrupts on his skillbar for this particular mission, etc., etc.

Dude, you can play how you like, that's fine. But if the way you play might annoy people, or if it isn't truthful, then I would insist that you consider using Heroes.

Evilsod · Jul 05, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

I'm sorry, but you really are a complete arsehole. The fact you actually think what you do is justifiable is bad enough, but the fact your proud of it is just pathetic.

You call the leader selfish because they *might* want you to use some other skills. Yet you overlook the fact that *you* are the selfish prick because you refuse to show anyone your REAL build. I'm sorry but instead of maybe just letting you use the build and maybe adjusting a few things thinking i know what your playing, only to find out your been a twat and using a completely different build because you refuse to tell the truth, i would probably just hurl abuse at you until you left. If you think your above the team because you shouldn't show your real build, i don't want you in it.

Whats your IGN so i can make sure i never, ever, get in a pug with you?

zwei2stein · Jul 05, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

What you're saying is exactly what people should do in PuGs. However, that can be easily accomplished by simply asking the other party members what "type" of build they are playing (e.g. I'm a Blood Necro or a Fire Elementalist) and requesting that they bring along a particular skill.

Pinging builds is a quicker way to achieve that...but my personal experience is that more parties (than not) use pinging for either (1) party selection or (2) micromanaging others' builds. That's why I'm naturally leery to pinging my build...especially if it puts me in the defensive position of justifying why I've chosen to bring certain skills over others.

You still have problems with that ... Fire Elementalist can have terrible build consisting of 8 damage skills ("i am all out for damage") which he would love and refuse any counsels and Blood Necro can still ignore your request to take one skill.

Pinging builds changed one thing: Terrible builds that were around suddenly became visible and people got faced with the fact that their threasured stuff they love is, well, inefective and even stupid. Sadly, typical kid reaction prevailed and isntead of improving to meet some standarts, you got whining.

Anyawy, if your skill choice is sound, you have nothing to fear when defending it, no? Because people ask you why you used it instewad of something else, you get to think about your choice and give good answer. If anything, that promotes actuall thinking about build you use. Its an opportunity to get feedback on what you are doing ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

You lie them about what you are going to do. That leads to people generally expecting something and it not ... happening.

Say for example that you have your supa dupa nuker you like and instead show general SF nuker bar. Now, this causes huge probems for your team if it contains decent players who play as team: They see SF burning so paragon brings They are on Fire, water ele you have brings steam and condition spreading skill, dervish takes Reap Impurities, etc etc ... But you took build that does not use buning they were all expecting to be abundant and you have several pissed party members who now have wasted skill slots. Its even worse if you join people with teambuild in mind.

You see, you basically lie to people just to have easier time regardless of consequences ... its base of being selfish prick.

Chances are, your own builds are so awesome they get you kicked from parties, but being childish about it instead of improving is worst thing you can really do.

Str0b0 · Jul 05, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

I swear if I see one more person go on about their rights I'm going to scream. Let me make this clear for the quoted poster as well as anyone else that wants to justify their idiotic actions by claiming it is their right. A right requires only recognition by others. What you are talking about is a privilege. See privileges require other people to sacrifice in some way so you can have what you want. In this case they are sacrificing a competent and successful group so you can have your way. If you are in any way shape or form inconveniencing someone else then what you are talking about is not a right. The only way that you getting to use your mediocre build in whatever capacity you want becomes your right is if you play with heroes and henchmen only. The moment you elect to join a group then you no longer have that right. If you don't like it then too bad. You can always go back to being lonely with your henchmen and heroes. That is just the way this game works. People play to win, not to be frustrated by some goober who just had to have his way. Frustration is not fun, winning is fun.

Twinsoul · Jul 05, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

No one forces you to PUG. If you want to PUG, be prepared to ping your skills and have others ping their skills, to make it more likely that the group gets anywhere. If you are, for some reason, dead set against pinging your skills, H&H is waiting for you. And if you suck bad enough that you can't H&H... then you're probably better off pinging your skills and letting others tell you what to bring.

vaxmor · Jul 05, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

is it any wonder that PUGs are dead?

Age · Jul 05, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

When I am the leader of a group I rarely ask this but they volunteringly ping there bars.I get woot out of it when I see a bad Monks bar and that of a hero but I never tell them to make changes when I see lvl 20 player useing healing breeze.

When another Monk is in the party and see I have Lod they coodinate and switch to something else if they are useing it.I really think that MMs are overated compared to a curses Necro as don't want to change from MM to curses take The Garden of Sebedorah (sp) most in that mission are MMs and I ask for a SS curses Necro and they say they are set up as MM can't they change to SS with suffering the mission would be a lot smoother that way as MMs die all the time and their minions turn on us.What is it with Necros who refuse to switch to curses which I would say is a lot better than death maybe heros do make better MMs.They going to have to switich when they get to the Gate of Madness.

Kook~NBK~ · Jul 05, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right.

You also have a responsibilty to whatever PUGs or even Guild groups you set out on missions with. Your "right" to bring any old thing you want is tempered by the needs and best interest of the team you're playing with.

Quote:

There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

I'd say the vast majority of resquests to change builds consist of making one or 2 minor adustments, not complete overhauls. There are exceptions, of course, like having a Necro change from MM to curses for Hell's Precipice (a reasonable request - LOL). also, having all those skills at your disposal doesn't give you the "right" to bring any old thing along with you, because many of those skills and skill combinations just plain suck.

Quote:

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

A party leader has the responsility to the entire party, not just himself. So when good ones ask your build, they're doing it for the good of the entire team, not just themselves. Also when the good ones ask, they'll more than likely NOT kick a person with a decent build that could use some minor tweaking who is willing to at least discuss changes. Now, if the skill bar in question is complete crap, then the likelyhood of getting kicked goes way up. Nice, helpful, people who aren't in a big hurry will give you a new build and show you a better way to do things. If the leader and member can't agree on the build, then it's better that they part ways.

Someone who just kicks you without discussion is a jerk that I, personally, wouldn't want to team up with anyway. Same goes for the person who says "This is the build I'm running and that's that!" - I wan't nothing to do with you.

geekling · Jul 05, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Honestly, if you are one of the people that normally ask others to "ping their builds", why aren't you playing with heroes instead? If you're looking for that degree of "control" (especially if you're forcing someone to play a cookie-cutter build), why not just do it yourself?

Most of the time, because if I'm pugging, I really don't care that much about getting the mission done quickly and efficiently. That's what heroes+hench are for, getting the job done. Chances are I've already done it. But if I'm pugging, it's because I just want to kick back and play with some real people for a change.

I don't really care that much what your build is, even if I ask you to ping it. What I do care about are the way you, and the others in the party react to it.

Most of the time, it's not about weeding out the builds I don't agree with. It's about weeding out the non-responsive players, the 'u sux noob' players, and other unwanted elements.

It's a conversation starter, if you wish. Nothing seem to quite bring out the jerkwads quicker so you can get rid of them. But on the other hand, if it brings out a calm discussion about skill X vs Y... then you're on to a winner group.

Plus I'm just plain nosy.

upier · Jul 05, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Do I mind pinging my build?
Not at all.

Will I bitch about other players builds if they stink?
Yes I will.
I will offer ideas how to improve the build OR just give orders what to dump (IF, and once again IF i know what i am talking about! (You won't see me commenting on Dervish builds!)). I will work with the person in question to try to find a better skill (from the selection that they have access to) then the one(s) that bug me.

Will I listen to advice about MY build?
Depends. Depends on the suggestion and the build. If they don't like it - I don't mind getting kicked.
BUT I don't have a problem learning new stuff!

Will I kick players for stupid builds?
Depends. Mostly not - unless they are obviously trying to hurt the team or are too dumb to listen to a well-ment suggestion. If I have the option to kick - that means it is MY team - so it is my right to make those kind of decisions.
If you don't like it - there are many teams that will gladly take your shitty builds and you can gladly fail with them.
I don't have a problem with kicking players or even refusing to accept them - BUT normally builds aren't the reason why I would exercise this right!

thor hammerbane · Jul 05, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

Not everyone knows what role thier character should play. Most of the time the player is new to the mission, So he/she doesn't know what type of enemies to expect; Pinging your build will help you in this aspect. If I saw you using an Mm build in a mission with little to no corpses, I would tell you to switch your build. Not because I'm a selfish prick, but because I know your build won't be effective.

Yes there are many skills to run the same build and to have the same effect, but some skills are more efficient than others. I don't know how others handle this situation, but I usually recommend a more usefull skill to use and why it is more usefull. Once the person understand how it is more effective, they have learned something and are now a better player.

You will never get better in the game If you simply take no criticism from others and just run builds that you think are effective. Constructive criticism is a beautiful thing and improves us all. Even when I know my build is effective in its purpose, I ask my team If they have any comments on my build. I hear them out and in doing so, I become a better player.

NJudson · Jul 05, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Were you one of the people I am talking about? ....

No, wasn't me. I think I was running Death-16, Soul Reaping - 13, ???. My skills were BoTM, Fiend, Horror, Vamp Horror, Deathly Swarm, Taste of Pain, Soul Feast, Rez Sig. Ok, maybe not the greatest MM skillbar, but doable in most cases. I've recently started to play my necro again after a few month hiatus and it's really been several months since playing a MM because I usually used to go Blood or Curses.

I will take a look at Zingers(?) MM thread for advice, but correct me if I'm wrong, but this MM bar isn't God awful is it? As OTP stated, playing an MM is exactly rocket science. Raise minions and spam BoTM, most of the rest of the skills are fillers.

Anyway, back to the actual topic. There are a lot of good posts here arguing one way or the other. I'm of more sound mind since originally posting the start of the thread when I was quite agitated. After having read the posts and had time to reflect on the issue, I believe that the GW community is too diverse and ultimately you just can't please everyone. I do agree with trying to form a solid team, particularly when playing difficult high end PvE. Requesting build pings and requesting skill changes within reason are perfectly acceptable.

However, the original point I was trying to make is that with my own experience in the game (beaten Prophecies and halfway? through Factions) there are very few missions/quests that really warrant "strict" control over team and individual builds (not including high end PvE). I prefer to PUG because of the "human" aspect is more enjoyable to me in most cases. Yes, I've been in bad groups. Yes, I've played with bad players, but in most cases I think what makes a player bad is poor tactics rather than subpar skillbars. For example, I wrote in a thread a long time ago that there are really just a few key things that really make or break a mission/quest in most cases.

1) One of the single most important keys to success is proper aggro control. I really don't need to explain this do I?

2) Calling targets and following the called target. With the recent addition of the auto targeting I've noticed less target calling, but I haven't really notice too much of a degradation of killing efficiency. I suspect that in many cases players auto target the same monster.

3) General bad play such as going afk, wandering off, players arguing...etc.

I guess everyone has their own playing styles and preference and if nitpicking and being elitest snobs on general missions/quests that don't warrant this type of play (in my opion anyway) then so be it. Oh by the way, the recent missoins that I was kicked on for not having the desired build were Nahpui Quarter (3 times) and Arborstone (once). The group was not going for Masters, the group was not playing HM, I did not have a ridiculously stupid build loaded and the missions are not that overly difficult so I'm left dumbstruck as to certain peoples behavior. I eventually was able to get into a PUG that didn't care about people's builds and we did just fine and wouldn't you know...we got Masters. All things considered though, I guess all you can say is "do whatever floats your boat".

mask316 · Jul 06, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

This is something I have seen much of to but it in a different way.
Since I am helping a good deal of time in places where it is common to be 12-17 in level I often get asked to help say ok and then they ping there build. I don't care though and only start looking at builds including mine if we don't accomplish what we started out to do. There are so many ways one can play and until you have played with them you have no idea if they make it work or not.

When I first started GW (2 years ago) I played what I still play often a hammer W/R. I got so much grief over choosing the hammer instead of a sword at first and then an axe that I played almost all the game alone with henchmen, except for when my someone from my guild was on and we got together.
Now for some reason people ask what I use and I tell them and there excited... I have no idea why, I know many axe, sword, bow, staff and wand warriors who play well so I am not sure what is making the difference for people.

When I play my protect monk of course as a monk you always get asked to help and I don't mind. I do ask that there be no aggro and off we go. If it works for them and the team who cares?

Or am I just lucky in the pug groups I get into most the time? As I have not been affected with build/loss of goal issue's.

Happy Hunting and be well

FalconDance · Jul 06, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

........
You lie them about what you are going to do. That leads to people generally expecting something and it not ... happening.

Say for example that you have your supa dupa nuker you like and instead show general SF nuker bar. Now, this causes huge probems for your team if it contains decent players who play as team: They see SF burning so paragon brings They are on Fire, water ele you have brings steam and condition spreading skill, dervish takes Reap Impurities, etc etc ... But you took build that does not use buning they were all expecting to be abundant and you have several pissed party members who now have wasted skill slots. Its even worse if you join people with teambuild in mind.

You see, you basically lie to people just to have easier time regardless of consequences ... its base of being selfish prick.
......

Probably one of the better points brought up in this thread. There are others, of course, but I wanted to highlight this.

Everyone talks about team synergy - and how PuGs just don't have it, etc. But then you have someone who says "screw them all! I'll ping what I think is expected then change it to suit myself, team be damned!" Who is causing PuG failure in that instance? I would hazard that if you're so spectacular that you cannot even be honest with team members, then perhaps you should hang out with your heros and henches. At least then when you cause possible catastrophic failure with your selfishness and deliberate misdirection, the heros just shrug and keep rezzing.

Everyone talks about how they can just take out their hand-taught heros and whoop arse. And I admit that much of the team I do just that myself. Most of the time it's because of people like the poster who said he switched builds just because he could. At the same time, I've had the good fortune of going out with some really nice players who have good builds--and we sometimes then advise each other on how to improve (or what skills to avoid).

When I run my necro, the first thing I tell a group is that I'm running full Curses degen and not MM. She (now) has FG but it's been my experience that most PuGs don't know how much time it takes to raise minions, let alone know that once they're up, you have to move. Curses lend much more fun to my game. Soon I'll run a full Wells build of my own making - and I'll tell the team when I'm doing that, as well.

I dunno. Maybe there are just too few honest people left in the world--even in a make-believe game.

Servant of Kali · Jul 06, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

OK, let's make some things straight.

If i PUG, which i don't anymore because PvE gets boring really fast... but anyway - if i do, keep in mind this:

1) I am not doing the mission for you. If i was doing the mission for you, you'd be on my guild or friends list. I am doing mission for myself, as selfish as it sounds.
2) I am not using AI because i got sentimental and am in need of some social contact, as incredible as it sounds considering who the average PUGian is. I PUG in hope that I'll run into an advanced soul who has a life outside of GW where it tries to break through the fabric of maya, but that soul probably wouldn't play GW anyway which means I'm just deluding myself but let me.
3) You have the privilege to play in a PUG group where I'm the leader. Not a right.
3) If I am the leader of the PUG group you got in, that means It's either my way or the highway. I have zero tolerance for Mending and the reasons why it's good. I have zero tolerance for incredibly bad builds which i can see even in PvP let alone PvE. I have, however, utmost patience for people who are discovering the game, learning how to play, unlocking skills, and show a future potential. I am also not nit-picky considering this is PvE. I dislike FotM's but will allow you to use. If I don't like your build, you may also explain to me why your build is better than I think it is, and I will consider pro & cons arguments.
4) If you have a problem with authority, you are not desired in my PUG group. I am too old for 12yr olds saying "who are you to tell me how to play this game". Team first. Team second. Player - after the mission.
5) If you're aiming for survival title - go away. A good team needs players who are ready to sacrifice for the team. You are not one of them.
6) Interact with your teammates. Chat. Comment. Relax. Play. Have fun. If I wanted someone who says not a word during whole mission, I'd take a Hero because there's more chance he is using the right armor, insignias, weapon, runes, skills, listens to orders and doesn't suddenly have to go somewhere in the middle of the mission.

And as for pinging builds, if you don't want to ping your build that's fine, you are free to join some horribly bad PUG which has equally bad skills as you. So If you're asked to ping your build, and you don't want to - just quit. Don't bother typing 'It's secret'. Just quit. It saves my time clicking on the kick button.

ps: As for pinging experience, the last person who didn't want to ping the build but said he's good, and which we let stay, was a 55hp monk. In PvP. Yeah, that's what I think about people who refuse to ping. You know your build is so bad that you'd get kicked for it.

Muspellsheimr · Jul 06, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Yeah, that's what I think about people who refuse to ping. You know your build is so bad that you'd get kicked for it.

Agree'd.

Not pinging your build when asked is by far the fastest way to get kicked from a group. If you ping your bar, and it's not liked - most people will give suggestions as to what to bring, and only kick you if you refuse to listen.

And pinging a build different from the one you intend to play is childish & stupid - very stupid. NEVER try getting into any group with me.

acidic · Jul 06, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splatter Mcnasty

How is that griefing 7 other players?

I know what role my characters should play for any given mission in the game. If i choose to perform a specific role in my own way, using a build of my choosing, then I have that right. There are so many skills available to characters, that nobody should be forced into one specific set of skills.

If anything, its the group leader trying to force a build down a player's throat who is the real griefer. Making me, or anyone, play your way makes you the selfish prick on the internet.

people like you ruined pugs. If anything gw is the most communistic game i have ever played, now diablo was a good game

martialis · Jul 06, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

It's nice that there is a variety of responses, so the OP can see the advantages of not pinging his build (or lying). I do, of course, but I understand why people don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

You pretty much just described me.
I'll be honest - I'm the kind of person where, unless I've used all 3 hero slots, you have to prove to me why I should pick you over my hero, or in some cases, a henchman.

...

The point is, a random person I don't know has to prove to me why I should pick their skillset that'll provide me with absolutely no healing, over my Healer's Boon Dunkoro, and the fire elementalist with DPS worse than a wand has to prove to me why I should pick them over my Zhed Shadowhoof with Savannah Heat.

I don't like doing things more times than I need to. I'm sure 99% of the sane public would think the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

...

1) I am not doing the mission for you. If i was doing the mission for you, you'd be on my guild or friends list. I am doing mission for myself, as selfish as it sounds.
2) I am not using AI because i got sentimental and am in need of some social contact, as incredible as it sounds considering who the average PUGian is. I PUG in hope that I'll run into an advanced soul who has a life outside of GW where it tries to break through the fabric of maya, but that soul probably wouldn't play GW anyway which means I'm just deluding myself but let me.
3) You have the privilege to play in a PUG group where I'm the leader. Not a right.
3) If I am the leader of the PUG group you got in, that means It's either my way or the highway. I have zero tolerance for Mending and the reasons why it's good. I have zero tolerance for incredibly bad builds which i can see even in PvP let alone PvE. I have, however, utmost patience for people who are discovering the game, learning how to play, unlocking skills, and show a future potential. I am also not nit-picky considering this is PvE. I dislike FotM's but will allow you to use. If I don't like your build, you may also explain to me why your build is better than I think it is, and I will consider pro & cons arguments.

etc.

You guys really need to take a long, hard look at how much you suck. It's just taken for granted that decent heroes are better than 99% of players. That includes the people posting here, and there aren't 100 posts here yet. If there is even the possibility that you will find players better than your heroes, then you need to improve your heroes, and stop being mean to other people. If you want to complete a mission, take heroes. If you still can't complete it, then criticising players in a PUG is the last thing you should be doing.

The only reason to play with other people is community. In that case, pinging builds is a necessary distraction, at best. So - be nice, since you have nothing else to contribute, and don't act like you're superior to 7 other random people.

I suggest listening to Jetdoc. He seems smart.

pumpkin pie · Jul 06, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

thank god for heros and henchmen

Burning Blade · Jul 06, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Splatter Mcnasty,

Please just tell us your IGN so you wont have to play with us ever!