Curse

Qual · Jun 13, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

This isn't attack against PvE ! Wake up, use observe mode. There is two paragons in 10-25% of the HA teams. So ofc A-net thinks it's time to nerf the paragon a bit.

Batou of Nine · Jun 13, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

I don't know if we have gotten any official word on this armor cap. Being away from GW for a few days and coming back to this, its hard to even find enjoyment or motivation to play this game anymore. For a game that preaches diversity and creativity, they sure seem to nullify aspects of this game on a regular basis.

I am getting more and more dissapointed with Anet's efforts to "balance" gameplay. When it first began one could see a deliberate focus on skill re-tooling, skill balancing, skill counters and metagame controls. In the last few months we have seen the lazy way out. COMPLETE overhauls of game mechanics in regards to singular issues ... Once again, using a baseball bat to kill a fly, rather than a simple fly swatter, something i have been saying for months now...

Examples are obvious huge changes like loot scalling, SR mechanics and beyond. In my mind, creativity has been slowly sapped out of this game and it is falling in line with the countless other faceless grind games with single track motives, thousands of players cloning eachother's playstyle, and a community becoming sour. This is saddening, and i fear all the major changes of late are pushing GW fans away in droves. Fact or not, it is still a concern.

Specifically, on this matter of armor stacking, i personally did not see this as a rampant problem. The only place we see a lot of annoyance from armor stacking is the griefers in RA or AB playing an Earth Tank. Simple fix would have been to change a few skills to lower their effectiveness. Anet capping armor for earth tanks in DoA? Nope, i don't buy it. That leaves what else? The "Stand Your Ground!" + "Watch Yourself!" paragons in HA? Again, could have seen simple skill fixes. I would love for anyone to cite extensive aspects/areas of the game that saw a large imbalance due to player armor stacking, because i could very well just be ignorant. Any legitamit reason, a reason that largely affected the game would settle this kind of thing in most people's mind, but i wouldn't hold our breath, Anet just seems to be on that downward spiral... sad stuff..

cheers.

glountz · Jun 13, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Now, can we have some buffs on paragon shouts or armor buffs please?
Stand your ground costs 15, gives conditionnal +24 armour (you have not to move) and recharges in eternity compared to WY.
Buff SYG to +40 when not moving. To be stationnary is already a huge threat in PvP anyway.
I'm quite okay with this update. The cap to +25 is too low IMHO (+30-35 would have been better), but, hey... Armor stacking to insane amount of armor is dead and it's for the better.

PS:Protective spirit is now the ultimate damage stopper. Farmers WILL HAVE to take it. (Snif, I can't farm anymore with my warrior).

Aera · Jun 13, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

The design team has spent considerable time reviewing the game, and a number of skill balances and PvP changes will be implemented into the game this week. These changes will remain in place for the week and, if they are successful, will remain in the game permanently. We will continue to monitor the state of the game and make adjustments as needed.

There's still hope guys...

RotteN · Jun 13, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Buff SYG to +40 when not moving. To be stationnary is already a huge threat in PvP anyway.

it's not realy, we've tanked 6 fire ele's with our paraway (yes, just standing still tossing spears till everything died), the amount of armor buffs a full parateam can lash out was/is simply retarded.

however, a simple cap seems to damage more than it'll actually do good (face it, in regular single/dual para, watch yourself will still be used as nrg management and to fuel the stances (used by the monks) no matter what, and shields up is mostly used for the blocking, not for the actual AL).

glountz · Jun 13, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

it's not realy, we've tanked 6 fire ele's with our paraway (yes, just standing still tossing spears till everything died), the amount of armor buffs a full parateam can lash out was/is simply retarded.

however, a simple cap seems to damage more than it'll actually do good (face it, in regular single/dual para, watch yourself will still be used as nrg management and to fuel the stances (used by the monks) no matter what, and shields up is mostly used for the blocking, not for the actual AL).

Yes because armor buffs were stacking. But if your armors buff can't stack, you won't be easily tanking your SF eles. And such, some armor buffing skills will need improvement.
The +40 to SYG is proposed with the implementation of the +25 armor cap.

upier · Jun 13, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

This is simply one one of the worst things to happen to pve in ages.
Simply - anyone saying that tanking is dead now is seriously deluded!
It is less powerful BUT at the same time it is still the best option. This will just cause the further degeneration of pve groups since now it requires to rely on the most idiotic gimmick in the game:
1. 1 tank with +25 armour will run in, grab aggro
2. the others will wait for that to happen and then move in to nuke nuke nuke

and additionally:
3. depending on how the Lightbringer title will work - depending if it stacks or not - it might additionally promote the grind associated with this stupidity that is the Lightbringer title and it's influence on the game!

If the change must be incorporated because it is causing insane imbalance in PvP - (like others have suggested and I've been bitching about it for weeks) might I suggest that this becomes one of the first special rules of PvP. Since this enables us to tweak skills by tweaking the environment which promotes the imbalanced usage of skills in ONE MODE instead of the skills itself!

Does-it-Matter · Jun 13, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

At what point will people realize you aren't limited to +25 Armor if you're only using one skill? It's only when you have a variety that, by themselves, don't add up to 25, that you are capped to 25.

Honestly, I'm glad to see this change. A little more realism to the fact that a single person could only stand for so long against a greater number of foes. It's going to shift the focus a little more towards melee as damage dealers.

If you only have one armor buff on your skill bar, this change doesn't affect you. If you have multiple... well, pick your favorite one and add some skills that either indirectly assure your survival or *gasp* offensive skills!

upier · Jun 13, 2007, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

At what point will people realize you aren't limited to +25 Armor if you're only using one skill? It's only when you have a variety that, by themselves, don't add up to 25, that you are capped to 25.

Honestly, I'm glad to see this change. A little more realism to the fact that a single person could only stand for so long against a greater number of foes. It's going to shift the focus a little more towards melee as damage dealers.

If you only have one armor buff on your skill bar, this change doesn't affect you. If you have multiple... well, pick your favorite one and add some skills that either indirectly assure your survival or *gasp* offensive skills!

actually - i don't see the restriction having a positive change on melee as damage.
since that will mean - less defence = takes more damage requires more work from the monkies.
that will mean that they will just focus on 1 player taking the damage while the rest stays back and doesn't get hit.
unless of course you meant 1 player running in - grabbing aggro and doing damage?
since the most fun i had was to run a heavy physical damage team - with massive party buffs which absolutely removed the need for tanks - which meant that party members HAD to go damage while not being restricted to the edge of the aggro bubble but rather made it possible to run builds without of fear of aggro breaking!
and this part is history now!

but 1 tank - grabbing aggro AND doing damage - that's still possible yeah!
but that won't involve ANY thinking - it will just further cement the whole tank, monky, nuker/ss-er and will make the game less varied!

and that's why it sucks!

Kas · Jun 13, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

In all honesty, A-Net should remove the Paragon Class from the game. They have allready received so many nerfhits and they still break otherwise perfectly fine skills and mechanisms. Almost everything the Paragon touches becomes imba country.
No i'm not serious about removing the Paragon but reworking that class would fix problems a lot better than just killing one mechanism after another.

majoho · Jun 13, 2007, 11:31 AM // 11:31

I don't oppose the stacking nerf, but 25 is really too low - 40-45 or so would be fair since now pretty much nothing will stack making a lot of skills pretty useless.

Many of the buffs and nerfs introduced will make PvE somewhat harder as far as I can tell.

Longasc · Jun 13, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Yes, it is. In PvP there are these things called "team builds" where people actually bother to coordinate, and two paragons will go command while one brings tactics, with both WY and shields up. The entire team will then proceed to not die.

Please. Stop that snide PvP crap, there is no need to lecture anyone that people can combine WY and SYG in a team build. This is not necessary.

That PvP related issues again cause nerfs with little regard, that is the core of the problem. PvP is not the one and only game mode in GW. HA only one mode of PvP.

All this stuff is related to Paragons and how shouts work. Global, almost uninterruptible, unremovable. Armor stacking is not the issue. This "fix" is a bandaid, and a bad one.

Shields Up already got nerfed before, works only vs piercing damage, Watch Yourself got changed/nerfed, too. These skills did not kill in HA before.

Now we have in addition to that, SYG. 24 more AL when NOT moving. Not a big problem for ranged attackers, but not kiting is still not really a good idea.

Now this is the big problem that really asks for a total nerf of armor stacking?

Sigh! Just change SYG completely to another function - instead of butchering the whole armor stacking stuff.

Give some Shouts activation times, or something else, think about something better than that... I think it is enough with nerfs of all kinds who are related to Paragon Shouts, this is crazy.

Squalus the Ipno · Jun 13, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Let me shut up about this update...........War not more War....incredible!!!!Tank nerfed???? incredible....

Thanks Anet.....

trobinson97 · Jun 13, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

This isn't attack against PvE ! Wake up, use observe mode. There is two paragons in 10-25% of the HA teams. So ofc A-net thinks it's time to nerf the paragon a bit.

Probably isn't, but since I only play pve, it sure feels like it.

Frantic-Sheep · Jun 13, 2007, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Shields Up already got nerfed before, works only vs piercing damage, Watch Yourself got changed/nerfed, too. These skills did not kill in HA before.

Shields Up! was just adjusted to suit Factions when it came out I believe, and applied accordingly. Watch Yourself! was adjusted in combination with Nightfall (Paragon) I believe.

I'm not really surprised to see this change. Everything is capped, and with reason. I understand it destroys some solo builds which is harsh, but then just do dual runs for example

. Figure a way around it, if you look at it from a distant view (not just your play style or character in mind) its actually not that surprising. It's the same reason you cant have 100% attack speed, enchantment stacking, speed buff 200% etc. etc.

mazik · Jun 13, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

You guys do realize, as someone stated before, that these changes are no permanent yet? Obviously if the change is getting this negative of feed back A-Net will likely remove it at the end of the test week, or at least refine it.

lyra_song · Jun 13, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

but 1 tank - grabbing aggro AND doing damage - that's still possible yeah!
but that won't involve ANY thinking - it will just further cement the whole tank, monky, nuker/ss-er and will make the game less varied!

isnt that what most pugs do anyways?

And hows any kind of restriction going to stop those with creativity anyway?

Lets see how this is implemented and give Anet the feedback.

Stealthc · Jun 13, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I think its a great idea that Anet puts their balance changes out in the open before they occur, they can then easily judge peoples reactions to them.

That is to say, the more complaining about the impending modification, the more overused it actually was at which point modifying the skill/mechanic will breathe a different kind of life into the game.

People will adapt and find a different way of doing things when their favourite build is changed.

clawofcrimson · Jun 13, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

why would anyone use SYG now? or any other skill under 25 besides WYS?

deadmonkey4u · Jun 13, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

This isn't attack against PvE ! Wake up, use observe mode. There is two paragons in 10-25% of the HA teams. So ofc A-net thinks it's time to nerf the paragon a bit.

those paragons aernt adding over 25al most of the time so it seems pretty irrelevant. At most they run watch yourself and stand your ground(which has a long recharge).

+armor abilities certainly help but I don't believe its that broken in pvp at all.
On the other hand the chain defensive anthem is pretty gay and im glad it got that 2 second cast time added to it in addition to the mesmer interrupts being able to take it out.

Seems more like something directed at all the PvE'rs doing the lets buff armor tons on the tank or solo farmer.