Curse

Destro Maniak · Jul 10, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Having to do repeated forays to scrounge up 2k fo a Superior Salvage kit is not fun.

I don't farm greens, rare materials, chest run, or trade.

I used to get any extra gold from whites and common materials - oh, that's right, they were scaled to reduce bots.

Junk the loot scaling and bring back the bots I say!

I agree. The loot scaling havent stopped bots and I never was hurted by bots.(Yea I dont care if there are bots. Really how come bots hurted you. Bots only take fool peoples real money for gold) Bots dont need do be brought back cause there still alive. The normal loot system is. Cause there still alive

Loviatar · Jul 10, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

I agree. The loot scaling havent stopped bots and I never was hurted by bots.(Yea I dont care if there are bots. Really how come bots hurted you. Bots only take fool peoples real money for gold) Bots dont need do be brought back cause there still alive. The normal loot system is. Cause there still alive

if you play with a full group you get the exact share you did before so no change.

if you solo according to the devs it is a sliding scale not a linear scale
and solo farmer gets 2 X normal instead of 8 X normal

PLUS ALL THE GOOD STUFF IS EXEMPT GIVING 8 X ALL THE GOOD DROPS JUST LIKE BEFORE.

Anet has the logs which will show that the hard core high end farmer is not a significant market share and is making things more easy for the casual player not mr hard core farmer

Destro Maniak · Jul 15, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

if you play with a full group you get the exact share you did before so no change.

if you solo according to the devs it is a sliding scale not a linear scale
and solo farmer gets 2 X normal instead of 8 X normal

PLUS ALL THE GOOD STUFF IS EXEMPT GIVING 8 X ALL THE GOOD DROPS JUST LIKE BEFORE.

Anet has the logs which will show that the hard core high end farmer is not a significant market share and is making things more easy for the casual player not mr hard core farmer

I dont damn care about good stuff. Cause 1 gold sword isnt worth 10k worth white items. And I still defend my idea that bots werent damaging other then fool people also dont care about eula so I think worst punishement for gold buyers are making them buy more money and let them just use real money. Oh btw have you ever, EVER heard about someone that tried to get money with full party. YOU CANT. Cause simply there is not any. No one earns gold now. Not everyone including casuals earn more gold. Everyone gets less gold. So how to get 75k for 15k armor. How to get 120 ecto/shard for fow. Its impossible to see a casual player to earn fow. All fow armored people got it by hard core farm before loot nerf or with ebay.

CAN YOU TELL ME HOW EXACTLY THIS WAS FOR BENEFIT OF CASUAL PLAYERS?

High end prices might be dropped. But how can a casual guy can earn 5-00k with casual playing? The only thing damaged a lot is farming. The only group damaged a lot are casual FARMERS. The only group plaily damaged are HARD FARMERS.

ANET SHOULD HAVE RAISED DROPS IN HM THEN NM. AND A FULL PARTY MIGHT GOT 8TIMES MORE THEN THEY GET. NOT NM IS TOTALLY NOTHING AND HM IS EVEN LESS THEN OLD MODE. SOLOERS GET 2/8 OF DROPS.

Caith-Avar · Jul 15, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Why does everyone insist that the only possibility to get gold is by farming (solo) somehow? Especially those who complain how much grind farming is. I don't farm. (Tend to say: "If I wanted to do farming in a game, I'd play Harvest Moon." No offense to Harvest Moon.) I play with full groups (usually 2-4 players and filled up with heroes), I play quests, missions, at the moment hard mode, mostly (missions and vanquishing). Still, the money count on my storage rises and rises. Sure, not enough to get a set of 15k every month (well, maybe it even would, if I wouldn't buy lockpicks) but I can't see where those money shortages are supposed to be.

I'm not rich, but I can afford everything I need and want, and a bit more.
Okay, I'm careful with expenses. I use quest reward items (Kournan Coins, Luxon Totems, that kind of thing) to get Salvage and Identify (and Trade Contracts for Rubies and Sapphires). I play all my core characters from Prophecies, because there are soo many free skills as quest rewards. I use the Hero Skill Trainers to get every skill I possibly can for free.

I live in something I'd call abundance, by normal playing (opposed to (solo-)farming), by a bit of patience and by being informed of what ways there are to get some of the "necessities" cheaper.
But that's just me... and, yeah, well, like... all of my guildmates and friends who play GW. Except... yeah, except one or two, maybe.

jesusrunz · Jul 15, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Put a rare and random Mursaat monk boss outside Altrumm and Bergan.

Give monsters in known "botspots" better skills (can i choose some?).

Place monster spawn close to the door so that bots get spiked before they have chance to throw up a protective spirit.

Put a nice fat Oakheart in the area with a Natures Renewal. Those trees do like them don't they?

Investigate everyone with 800k+ on their account.

Remove the 55 icon.

Reduce the health deduction on superior and major runes.

Delete all gold and items from the account of anyone doing 100 solo runs in a day.

Ban anyone who hasn't logged off for 48 hours.

Investigate people exchanging massive sums of gold on a regular basis.

Change the currency in Guild Wars and do a gold sweep.

Ban player to player trading and dropping of items/gold.

Taxes! The more money you have, the more you pay. Make it undesireable to be wealthy!

Pay a fee for traveling alone.

Pay a fee of gold when you travel alone and make it climb with each new instance.

As previously mentioned, remove the signposts in towns/outposts and replace with signs created from the rocks etc that can't be clicked on. Adds realism too.

Randomise spawns. A program can't follow something that can't be followed.

Place new creatures in botspots - Fallen Heroes with Echo+Debilitating shot.

Dummy spirits that take no damage but still attack. Using /kneel will call down the gods to remove the incarnation. A bot would carry on attacking it and die.

Some of those above sound extreme and probably very likely improbable that they might probably not be doable maybe.
There are so many things that CAN be done but it makes me sad that Anet chose a method that harms genuine players who do like killing stuff alone but who must now forfeit that sense of adventure and accomplishment.

Also, don't buy Unidentified golds from people with gibberish names. 99% of them are gold farmers who will recycle that gold into Yen and further hurt this game.
Find yourself a trade partner who you can trust and do regular deals with.

My vote - get rid of loot scaling because i've never seen this many bots before.
Make it harder for the genuine players and they may seek other ways to get wealth.

All I got to say is lol

Molock · Jul 15, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I'm just grateful that I purchased all my "luxuries" before loot-scaling messed things up. I have all I need and my only spending at the moment is cap signets..

About bots.. well take away the signposts, put foes with anti-55 skills in "bot hot spots" and get rid of loot-scaling.

Molock · Jul 15, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Sword Keeper

Agreed.
As for the Loot Scaling Poll.

Granted.

I got a screenshot of me just finished killing 23 vermin and only receiving 5 drops. Do i need to say more?

Ya, its looks like this...

Destro Maniak · Jul 16, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

Why does everyone insist that the only possibility to get gold is by farming (solo) somehow? Especially those who complain how much grind farming is. I don't farm. (Tend to say: "If I wanted to do farming in a game, I'd play Harvest Moon." No offense to Harvest Moon.) I play with full groups (usually 2-4 players and filled up with heroes), I play quests, missions, at the moment hard mode, mostly (missions and vanquishing). Still, the money count on my storage rises and rises. Sure, not enough to get a set of 15k every month (well, maybe it even would, if I wouldn't buy lockpicks) but I can't see where those money shortages are supposed to be.

I'm not rich, but I can afford everything I need and want, and a bit more.
Okay, I'm careful with expenses. I use quest reward items (Kournan Coins, Luxon Totems, that kind of thing) to get Salvage and Identify (and Trade Contracts for Rubies and Sapphires). I play all my core characters from Prophecies, because there are soo many free skills as quest rewards. I use the Hero Skill Trainers to get every skill I possibly can for free.

I live in something I'd call abundance, by normal playing (opposed to (solo-)farming), by a bit of patience and by being informed of what ways there are to get some of the "necessities" cheaper.
But that's just me... and, yeah, well, like... all of my guildmates and friends who play GW. Except... yeah, except one or two, maybe.

Well there is point of doing things. Vanquising is for title. Farming is for gold. As I said getting gold from full party things is like buying 6pack of beer for 50g nut present. As in same time yuou can get tons of nuts from nut tree. You get enought gold for 15k armor in a month with totally saving. I can get 4-5 in the time before scale

Tijger · Jul 16, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

Why does everyone insist that the only possibility to get gold is by farming (solo) somehow? Especially those who complain how much grind farming is. I don't farm. (Tend to say: "If I wanted to do farming in a game, I'd play Harvest Moon." No offense to Harvest Moon.) I play with full groups (usually 2-4 players and filled up with heroes), I play quests, missions, at the moment hard mode, mostly (missions and vanquishing). Still, the money count on my storage rises and rises. Sure, not enough to get a set of 15k every month (well, maybe it even would, if I wouldn't buy lockpicks) but I can't see where those money shortages are supposed to be.

I'm not rich, but I can afford everything I need and want, and a bit more.
Okay, I'm careful with expenses. I use quest reward items (Kournan Coins, Luxon Totems, that kind of thing) to get Salvage and Identify (and Trade Contracts for Rubies and Sapphires). I play all my core characters from Prophecies, because there are soo many free skills as quest rewards. I use the Hero Skill Trainers to get every skill I possibly can for free.

I live in something I'd call abundance, by normal playing (opposed to (solo-)farming), by a bit of patience and by being informed of what ways there are to get some of the "necessities" cheaper.
But that's just me... and, yeah, well, like... all of my guildmates and friends who play GW. Except... yeah, except one or two, maybe.

Same here and we regularly help out friends and guildies and, call it karma, we usually get the good drops then. One black dye is worth more then 2 hours of mindless farming usually. We helped a friend cap some elites on the weekend and between us we got 4 greens from 12 bosses.

Oh, I can farm, I've built up an impressive array of greens over time but I just find it boring as all hell. Loot scaling doesnt bother me just as the old anti-farm code never bothered me, I was never able to trigger it anyway.

I'm sure for some this is a disaster but I suspect the majority of players couldnt care less and judging from the amount of trade spam I see and the number displayed there (100+ tomes anyone?) farming is alive and well.

Amy Awien · Jul 16, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

CAN YOU TELL ME HOW EXACTLY THIS WAS FOR BENEFIT OF CASUAL PLAYERS?

1) In general, prices are down, runes are cheaper, items are cheaper.
2) Income has remained the same.

=> Casual players find it easier to buy their equipment and skills.

ad 2. Casual players do not build invincimonks for the sole purpose of solo farming. Casual players rarely, if ever, solo farm at all, since casual players normally adventure in full sized parties and as has been stated, loot scaling does not affect those.

Quote:

High end prices might be dropped. But how can a casual guy can earn 5-00k with casual playing?

Never, the casual player never saw 5000k, doesn't need it either. A full armor set costs 5K, add 3k for runes and 2k for dyes, that's ... 10k. Add 5k for a weapon, 5k for mods and your setup for 20k total.

Quote:

The only thing damaged a lot is farming. The only group damaged a lot are casual FARMERS.

Yes, I believe solo-farming was hurt. I am sorry the honest and casual solo farmer like your self got hurt by this change. Personally I feel ANet should have tried other methods to counter the farming with bots.

the_jos · Jul 16, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

The only thing damaged a lot is farming. The only group damaged a lot are casual FARMERS.

Yes, I believe solo-farming was hurt. I am sorry the honest and casual solo farmer like your self got hurt by this change. Personally I feel ANet should have tried other methods to counter the farming with bots.

Farming with bots was only part of the problem.
As I said before, the number of human casual farmers far exceeds the number of bots. The reason for this assumption: a long time the only 'valid' argument on various forums when people were complaining about high prices was: "STFU and go farm".
A large part of the gold generated by those players will remain in the game, while bot-farmers that e-bay their gold need to sell it first, before their account is closed.
This is also mentioned in the notes on the 20 April 2007 Dev Update, though a bit hidden.

Quick quote:
" Thus, our goal is that solo farmers can still earn as much money as they did before, but they'll have to earn it in different ways. Instead of looking for things to sell to merchants, solo farmers should now be looking for things to sell to traders or other players. ................
Here's how we've provided a new way for advanced players to make as much money as they did before: by introducing new items which will have a high demand from other players and thus high trade value, and then by making those items completely unaffected by loot scaling, so that solo farmers still have very effective ways to make a lot of money, but so that they make their money without hurting the game's economy. "

Seems most players have not found those new items yet, because they focus on their old way of farming....

kradens · Jul 16, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

is farming code still around? the one that decreases loot when u repeatedly zone in and out of an area (ie. like when you're farming).

because i swear, i was farming around gates of kryta with VwK and during my first run i got lots of purples and blues, and now i rarely get a blue.

i've gotten to the point where i can deal with loot scaling, instead of 10 hours of farming, i now do 100hrs. oh well.

but loot scaling + farming code is crippling man.

kradens · Jul 16, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

ps. a couple of guildies BOUGHT gold from the net.

this is ridiculous...loot scaling actually MADE them buy gold off of the net.

they're going after UAS across 10 character professions, for that u need like 2900 plat on elites alone.

with the runs i do, i usually make 2k an hour. and seriously, i dont blame em.

i just know gold-greed is gonna be at an all time high when the hall of monuments is gonna come out. im pretty sure there will be people tempted to unlock every monument at the max level, UAS, all ascended armors, all greens etc. and those monuments will be an enormous gold sink, people are gonna use up money faster than they can be bothered to make it, and eventually, they'll do what my guildies did.

i also did a quick google search on major guildwars gold sellers, and from what i can see, they dont seem to be hindered at all. hell, they probably have more business.

Collintag · Jul 16, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I don't really like the loot scaling either. I don't farm much, just when I need a quick boost of gold for skill capping or new armor for a new character. I used to try ettin farming to sell off runes but we know how that went. Then I went to vermin cuz its quick and easy and could get the Shreadder's Talons to make a quick 1-2k. Now that is pretty much useless as well.

To me, farming is a bore but you just don't make enough gold from regular questing and gameplay. At least not at a decent enough pace to notice it. I'm not shooting for titles or anything either. Someone that is going for every max title on 10 characters can spend 5,000 hours farming for all I care cuz that is an insane amount of gold that nobody really "needs". BUT, with the loot scaling casual farming is shot. This just makes things harder on us non-hardcore farmers that are just trying to buy things we need without spending tons of extra hours just farming. There has to be a better way to get rid of bots. This hasn't worked anyway because I see more bots now than ever.

Snow Bunny · Jul 16, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I can see both points to the argument. My day-to-day income used to be roughly 30k, essentially from 2 hours of playing, which is around what I play a day. This meants a new suit of 15k every week, give or take. Things have changed, this is a given.

The market is very askew these days, which admitedlly is unfortunate, but we can't do anything about it. My personal largest complaint is 15k armor hasn't really lessened in price.

I do have a couple of tips for those in serious, legit need of money.

Start doing outside quests - H/H them and you will earn roughly 1-2k a quest in drops. Not great, but whatever.
Just do the campagins a bit - I just started a new warrior, have gotten her from Tyria to the end of NF - total value of drops accumulated exempting golds - 40k.
Finally, and maybe the worst option, Fast Faction Farming.
----> I know it's not an option for many, but, if you can do it, and don't mind the grind, it's basically 4k for 45 min, +10k Kurzick faction. I might get flamed for suggesting this, but...honestly...I am sitting on 500k right now. Where did I get that? I got 400k of it from Fast Faction Farming, it's just that easy. It's a bit of grind, but it's reliable. You should check guru/wiki for articles on it if you want to know more.

wetsparks · Jul 17, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by kradens

is farming code still around? the one that decreases loot when u repeatedly zone in and out of an area (ie. like when you're farming).

because i swear, i was farming around gates of kryta with VwK and during my first run i got lots of purples and blues, and now i rarely get a blue.

The anti-farming code is gone. But if you go and do something after farming and come back you do tend get some good drops on that first run, then back to the crap drops like usual. It's been so long since there wasn't something to hinder farming so I don't remember if that is how it used to be, but that seems to be the way it works now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caith-Avar

Why does everyone insist that the only possibility to get gold is by farming (solo) somehow? Especially those who complain how much grind farming is. I don't farm. (Tend to say: "If I wanted to do farming in a game, I'd play Harvest Moon." No offense to Harvest Moon.) I play with full groups (usually 2-4 players and filled up with heroes), I play quests, missions, at the moment hard mode, mostly (missions and vanquishing). Still, the money count on my storage rises and rises. Sure, not enough to get a set of 15k every month (well, maybe it even would, if I wouldn't buy lockpicks) but I can't see where those money shortages are supposed to be.

I'm not rich, but I can afford everything I need and want, and a bit more.
Okay, I'm careful with expenses. I use quest reward items (Kournan Coins, Luxon Totems, that kind of thing) to get Salvage and Identify (and Trade Contracts for Rubies and Sapphires). I play all my core characters from Prophecies, because there are soo many free skills as quest rewards. I use the Hero Skill Trainers to get every skill I possibly can for free.

I live in something I'd call abundance, by normal playing (opposed to (solo-)farming), by a bit of patience and by being informed of what ways there are to get some of the "necessities" cheaper.
But that's just me... and, yeah, well, like... all of my guildmates and friends who play GW. Except... yeah, except one or two, maybe.

So what you are saying is instead of running around killing the same groups over and over again you run around killing all the monsters in every area to make your money, along with doing all the missions over again. You say you find farming boring (and it is), that is every bit as boring unless you really want the titles that come with doing all that.

reddswitch · Jul 17, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

It's good to see more of the 'play normally and you get rich' posts getting debunked. I've always disagreed with those posters. Playing through normally gives you a 'x' amount of skills and gold. If you want more you have to do more than play normally. Farming, grinding, or exploiting an unintended issue is how you get wealthier. Playing quests and missions over and over isn't called farming? You're killing the same things in the same areas over and over and over and over...

Loot scaling didn't really change anything for the casual player who plays normally, except less drops/income. Since the changes there's less income from playing normally, buyer's market means less profits if any at all but that was more about luck of drop or persistance of farming. The list of expenses I concern myself with are:

a) Minor runes, the runes that really count, are kind of the same. Major runes, not much change. Superior runes are the only ones that have dropped in prices and you can debate on whether or not it's a necessity to have maxed out attributes or health.
b) The majority of crafting materials are also kind of the same. Exception being the gem/jewel types, which are used for vanity armors so it helps who?
c) Skill cost and capture signets remain the same.
d) Crafting non-15k max armor was cheapened, but it requires insignia purchases now to fill in the un-insignia'ed slot which used to be included when it was 500g more to craft. This could be a good change or bad depending on price of insignia wanted.
e) Crafting weapons and focuses remain the same.

I wasn't rich before loot scaling and I'm not dead broke after. I never farmed much before and got by fine, most I've had is 130k. Luckily for me I got into the pvp side before loot scale came in. I bought most of the interesting skills I wanted on my pve characters early on otherwise I'd be broke from buying skills. I have never thought of vanity as a necessity so my expenses were always low. Being stingy with your money does help but it really restricts your playstyle.

It's clear loot scaling did not stop bots. It may have slightly hindered some bots, but the strong, adaptable ones will go on and beget more and more like cockroaches. Anet, you're not squashing the pests, you're forcing them to evolve!

P.S. I normally don't do Fast Faction Farming, but on a recent event I decided to try it out. I'm in complete agreement with Snow Bunny, it is a great, reliable way to make money and gain faction. Like farming or grinding it is too monotonous so I'll probably do it again in 6 months.

Martin Alvito · Jul 17, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

There isn't an online game out there that "rewards" casual play. The GW devs were kind enough to design a game that "permits" casual play. You can quit at any time and come back. You can take one swing at a mission or the intervening quests whenever you feel like it, burn 30 minutes of your time, and move on to something else without penalty. It's not difficult to reach max level; it's not overly challenging to beat a campaign. In short, all of the negative aspects of playing an online game and not dedicating a significant chunk of your life of it have been removed. The devs deserve kudos for this.

However, as one previous poster prominently noted, a lot of us aren't wired like that. There are quite a few goal-oriented folks that chase those goals in their free time as hard as they chase goals in RL. For some it may even be harder. So the devs created a fair amount of fancy, expensive, ultra-rare stuff to appeal to that crowd and keep them playing (and buying new content).

Now, we all want that stuff, but few can have it. It follows that only the in-game "rich" will hold possession of those items. They may be wealthy in time (pure farmers), resources (botters), skill (those very few that hold HA for hours at a time; runners) or a combination thereof (eg: item resellers - resources in the form of prior in-game wealth to venture and skill at keeping track of the market).

The Guild Wars economy mirrors that of real life financial markets in quite a number of interesting ways. One of its closest similarities is that the market generally functions - it rewards the ability to produce desirable goods (or services, such as Drok's running when it was somewhat more difficult than it is now) with maximum efficiency. It will reward less than maximum efficiency only if sufficient time and energy is inputted to generate comparable rewards. Thus, there are very few get-rich-quick schemes, and most methods of wealth acquisition involve significant investment of personal resources.

If you know how to provide goods or services that most other people do not know how to provide, or if you can do so far more efficiently than others, you get rich. If you do not, you don't. End of story. It's how markets work. Markets don't reward ethical behavior or playing the game "as it was intended to be played". Markets don't care about ethics or principles. Governments (such as the devs at ANet) often do, but governments also frequently fail to fully anticipate the consequences of their attempts at intervention, which leads to the widely-held but still sharply disputed notion that laissez faire economics is the way to go.

However, market failures still DO occur. In GW they typically result from information costs. The poster that commented about the difficulty of trying to sell rare skin Nightfall weapons at their actual time value of production is correct in his complaints. It takes time and effort to spam all of the major trading hubs (over a number of minutes/hours) to find a buyer for high time-cost, lower-demand items. The problem is that the time invested to sell has value, and if it takes too long the would-be seller will merch/severely undercost the item and move on.

The GW marketplace as it stands simply fails to resolve these challenges, which is why we have the repeated requests for an in-game auction house. May happen, but probably won't. Great idea (as reducing information costs would enrich EVERYONE in the economy via a generalized reduction in item prices), but if ANet has been insisting that their time cost for implementation is too high for a couple of years now, we're unlikely to see it happen.

Loot scaling complaints:

There exist two types of tangible goods in the GW world - cash (gold/plat) and stuff that you can exchange gold/plat for. (Runes, items, rare crafting materials, etc.) Loot scaling decreased the supply of the former and increased the supply of the latter (via HM farmers). Thus the general effects of loot scaling have been that which one should have predicted when it came out (after the first patch):

1) THE key point: the decrease in ability to farm cash meant that botters (who represent a significant proportion of the supply in the economy) switched over to farming ectos or gold items and then selling those farmed goods for gold/plat. This led to a significant revaluation of cash itself (which became MUCH more valuable than before). Further, it led to the resultant devaluation of ectoplasms, those gold items which can still be farmed via PvE botting methods, and the other items exempt from loot scaling (greens, dye, and so forth).

I got burned on ectoplasm too (I had about 200 at the time). I wasn't playing due to a semester end in grad school. I choose to blame it on that, but you and I both know deep down that I got burned due to stupidity.

After all, I DID read the update post, know what was coming, and fail to deal with it.

2) Hard Mode led to a massive collapse in the value "low level" items such as Colossal Scimitars which previously would rarely drop at max damage, as it caused the supply to explode.

3) The supply of Tomes was limited at first but increased rapidly; hence a large initial valuation which rapidly declined over time (and was assisted by the increase in the value of gold/plat cash).

5) The value of those items which COULD currently be farmed collapsed, though not with the sort of crash that the Colossal Scimitar market endured. The supply went up, demand remained constant.

5) A few items which cannot be farmed actually increased in value - old req 7 and 8 items that drop much more infrequently (if ever) since Nightfall came out, the HoH-only inscribable skins (a limited set since the devs chose to introduce the Factions elite mission inscribable chests, as well as adding a number of Prophecies rare skins to DoA), and the Asian minipets/beetle . Interestingly, the massive availability of the req 9s (as well as the gradual increase in supply of HoH goodies over time) tended to hold the prices of the req 7/8s and the HoH-onlies fairly constant in terms of their ecto value, where the prices of the minipets skyrocketed.

General resultant upshot of loot scaling:

a) The new paradigm rewards the best farmers that can successfully farm HM. It also closes a significant number of would-be traders out of the market, as the only items worth playing buy low/sell high with are those items which cannot presently be farmed (and thus cost a LOT).
b) Necessities that can only be purchased with gold (cap sigs) became much more expensive.
c) Many fewer buyers/sellers of low and mid-range items. Market collapses on the EXTREMELY high-end items worth pursuing, as generalized item devaluation results in information costs crowding numerous items out of being worth reselling. Also, those information costs result in significant undercosting of those low/midrange items sold on the open market.

Does this harm the "average" player? Probably. Does it hurt the "hardcore" player? Not really. Net result - generalized dissatisfaction which is not understood by "the elite" player.

Were the unintended consequences of the loot scaling drop mechanism healthy for Guild Wars? Probably not. The general signal that the whole situation sends me is that ANet has decided to attempt to carry its current dedicated player base over to the new game and generate a new broad player base for the new game through marketing. I'm of the opinion that this is a rather flawed business model, but that's just one man's opinion. GW2 could fly off the shelves and surprise me. I just don't see it given the sheer number of potential GW2 customers that ANet has managed to antagonize over the last two years.

Thoughts?

the_jos · Jul 17, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

a) The new paradigm rewards the best farmers that can successfully farm HM. It also closes a significant number of would-be traders out of the market, as the only items worth playing buy low/sell high with are those items which cannot presently be farmed (and thus cost a LOT).

Think this is true.

Quote:

b) Necessities that can only be purchased with gold (cap sigs) became much more expensive.

Not true, they cost the same, only solo/small team-farmers have to work longer to buy them.
For example, I need about 100K for my Elonian Elites title and I managed to get that amount in about 1.5 months play. That is on my mesmer, who never farms and it's only his cash (I kept it on the character and not in storage).
And I played with other characters in that time.

Quote:

c) Many fewer buyers/sellers of low and mid-range items. Market collapses on the EXTREMELY high-end items worth pursuing, as generalized item devaluation results in information costs crowding numerous items out of being worth reselling. Also, those information costs result in significant undercosting of those low/midrange items sold on the open market.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here, special the 'information costs'.
Would you be so kind to explain what you are trying to say here?

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Does this harm the "average" player? Probably. Does it hurt the "hardcore" player? Not really. Net result - generalized dissatisfaction which is not understood by "the elite" player.

I don't agree with the 'average player' harm.
I still consider the average player the player that plays in full-sized teams, and not those that solo-farm from time to time. Players in full-sized teams do not suffer from loot scaling.
People that know how to (HM) solo-farm, but don't do that for a living, also have advantages.
Not in cash, but in gold items.
I use those to equip my heroes and sometimes salvage the good upgrades of them to put them on other weapons.

The players that are hurt most are those that were used to burn cash fast (I've seen people that wanted to buy 15K armor each week), or were saving up for something very expensive, like the req 7-8 weapons mentioned before.
Those are not the average players.

Martin Alvito · Jul 17, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

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Originally Posted by the_jos

Think this is true.
Not true, they cost the same, only solo/small team-farmers have to work longer to buy them.

That IS harm to the little guy/average player IMO; see below. If such players have to put more time in to afford the same necessities, they have become worse off. The equivalent in RL would be a wage cut or inflation which disproportionately increases the cost of basic necessities - those living at the edges of their means (who are disproportionately those with lower wages) feel it more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I don't understand what you are trying to say here, special the 'information costs'.
Would you be so kind to explain what you are trying to say here?

Economics jargon. There is a time/opportunity cost in this game associated with making potential buyers aware that you have an item that they might wish to buy. If that cost becomes sufficiently high relative to the value of the item, the market fails and the item does not get transferred from seller to buyer. Both actors would be better off from the transaction (the seller prefers the cash to the item and the buyer prefers the item to the cash), but the transaction doesn't happen - the definition of market failure.

The information cost is highest when demand is low (fewer buyers = longer time spamming to unload item). An item that takes significant time to produce has intrinsic value, but the inefficient trading system results in many such low demand items being merched, since it isn't worth the seller's time to find a buyer at the market price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I don't agree with the 'average player' harm.
I still consider the average player the player that plays in full-sized teams, and not those that solo-farm from time to time. Players in full-sized teams do not suffer from loot scaling.

I believe that most players of this game farm *something* periodically. I don't believe most PvE types spend their time farming the Deep or vanquishing Hard Mode, which are about the only ways to accumulate halfway decent drops in full groups. New characters are expensive; where does one come up with the money for one?

Skill acquisition costs money. If you want to put all of the possible elite skills from a primary class on a character, it's going to run 15k-35k depending on the class. Toss in another 40-60k depending on class for tomes (at, say, 500 a pop) to make all of the regular skills available. Then toss in another 5-10k for the various secondary skills one might want. All told you're looking at a good 60-100k to get a character fully ready. Arguably you could skimp here and run total costs of around 25-30k to just get the most viable skills for a class.

Minimum cost for armor's going to be a good 10k or so, including materials.

Weapons are another expensive proposition. Either you're investing time in collector items or you're buying rare inscribables. Either way, you're going to need weapon swaps. Depending on class, to get maximally functional gear you're looking at 20k or so. Making a warrior is vastly more expensive, and making a ranger somewhat more so since weapon req matters bigtime on a ranger.

We're looking at a minimum bill of 60k to set up a new character, and this assumes you don't mind not having a lot of skills, having ugly gear, limited available builds, no gear on heroes, no runes/insignias on your armor and only barebones necessities. This is a pretty significant setup cost just to be able to play to the endgame. It's realistic to suggest that playing through a couple of campaigns will provide that kind of cash...but how many players of this game are really that thrifty?

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The players that are hurt most are those that were used to burn cash fast (I've seen people that wanted to buy 15K armor each week), or were saving up for something very expensive, like the req 7-8 weapons mentioned before.
Those are not the average players.

Honestly, I think you underestimate intractable character setup costs and overestimate the potential for cashflow resulting from playing the game "normally". The cost of doing a good job of equipping one's heroes with gear probably has gone down, true. However, the basic necessities (skills, armor) are comparatively FAR more expensive than they used to be, and the primary method with which to acquire the cash for them (basic farming) is now unavailable to the casual player that doesn't have the wherewithal for hard mode. The upshot is that it's more difficult for new players to get into the game and also more difficult for the majority of the community to accomplish basic objectives.