Curse

cellardweller · Jun 26, 2007, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Seems we need a better definition of the casual player.
Because when I consider the casual player to be someone that PuGs/Guilds and H&Hs through the game with full team and you consider the casual player to be something else, we are never going to agree on this.

I've tried finding out in the guild what people consider a casual player, but it's hard to define.

Strangely enough, I would define a casual player to be someone that plays casually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

cas·u·al /ˈkæʒuəl/
2. without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing: a casual remark.

I think that in an ideal world most casual players would choose to play in full teams all the time, but are forced to farm because without doing so, the basics are out of reach..

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Skills are a one time investment on each character and there are not that many different 'wanted' builds. It can turn out expensive in the long run (about 1100K when you want all skills on one character).
I doubt you need that many skills unlocked.

If you're content running the same skills over and over and over then you'd be right, but quite frankly I only know one person that can does that. Personally, I'm not having fun unless I have created a new build to run out with. Even getting just 2-3 new skills per week for each of your characters would cost 20-30k - more than you could ever hope to make playing "normally" for 1-2 hours/day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Keys are a choice. You don't need them and I only use those that drop for me. Low-ends go to merch without even thinking, because they don't add to title. That's an other 'buyable' title, aka gold-drain.
I use Lockpicks, but those only in specific areas (because I want better looking weapons on my heroes).

Keys and chests are a basic game elements, having fun shouldn't be restricted to those that have big bank accounts.

Exodous · Jun 26, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Cost of skills before 1k, Cost of skills after 1k. Cost of armour before 1k, Cost of armour after 1k. Cost of keys before 600g, cost of keys after 600g. Cost of common materials before 14-20g each, cost of common materials after 14-20g each. Cost of weapons/offhands before 5k, cost of weapons/offhands after 5k. Cost of id kits before 100g, cost of id kits after 100g. Cost of salvage kits before 400g, cost of salvage kits after 400g. Need I go on?

Looks like the value of gold is exactly like it was before the nerf.

Because of loot scaling the supply of gold in the system has gone down. The demand for gold has stayed the same or maybe even gone up some. This translates into a player market (that would be where the prices aren't fixed) where 1000 gold will get you more stuff after the update than before.

Quote:

Blatantly false. Most casual players needed to farm to afford basic gold sinks like skills and keys before the loot nerf. Most 8 person "adventuring sessions" end up losing 1-3k when you factor in the cost keys and buying new skills for the session. Every casual player I know (myself included) did the "low end farms" like vermin and spiders at least once a week, just to keep their bank balances above 0 - these runs have been the hardest hit by the nerf due to the very low rate of unscaled drops you get from them.

Rare items are wants, not needs. Their loot scaling cost doesn't affect your ability to play the game.

I have never ever had to farm, I make most of my money by doing these "adventuring sessions" with heroes and henchies. Thing is, I don't need to buy keys. Keys are a gold sink for players who have too much gold already. I really don't need to buy skills either after a certain point, many of the skills being pretty bad anyway.

Quote:

The price of every essential item stayed the same, but the ability of the casual player to make the required money to get them has plumetted. The cost of a shiny gold sword is totally irrelevent when a casual player cannot even afford to buy the skills they want!

This whole argument depends on how a casual player is defined, I see farming as something that automatically disqualifies somebody from being a casual player. So in my mind the casual players ability to make gold has not been impeded by loot scaling.

reetkever · Jun 26, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodous

Because of loot scaling the supply of gold in the system has gone down. The demand for gold has stayed the same or maybe even gone up some. This translates into a player market (that would be where the prices aren't fixed) where 1000 gold will get you more stuff after the update than before.

But sadly enough, it doesn't. Does 2K now give you 2 Superior Salvage Kits, or 4 skills? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodous

I have never ever had to farm, I make most of my money by doing these "adventuring sessions" with heroes and henchies. Thing is, I don't need to buy keys. Keys are a gold sink for players who have too much gold already. I really don't need to buy skills either after a certain point, many of the skills being pretty bad anyway.

Yes but you are you. You can't speak for everyone that way.

I DID have to farm. Now, I can't speak for everyone, either, but what I want is good for everyone (more cash for everyone is good than less cash for everyone, in a market where most stuff has fixed prices).

We're not all experienced, either. When playing a new character, you don't know which skills are good or not. I, for one, don't want to walk with the same skills all the time. I want to try out new builds and combinations. But that, too, has been killed by the lootscaling that has nothing but downsides for everyone except bots.

And we casual players want to enjoy the game too, by buying keys. Just because this lootscaling is here, we can't. If A-Net really cared about casual players, they made the rewards of questing/missioning better, and made the prices of stuff like keys less (which will, surprisingly, also bring down the price of gold, rare skinned weapons. That is what A-Net wanted, right?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodous

This whole argument depends on how a casual player is defined, I see farming as something that automatically disqualifies somebody from being a casual player. So in my mind the casual players ability to make gold has not been impeded by loot scaling.

So only lucky people are casual players according to you? I'm not so lucky. Doing quests/missions does NOT give me the cash needed for the stuff I want to buy. The game's low reward and drop rate forces me to farm. So do I get the title of 'Hardcore farmer' then?

cellardweller · Jun 26, 2007, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

<snip>

Very well said

the_jos · Jun 26, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I think that in an ideal world most casual players would choose to play in full teams all the time, but are forced to farm because without doing so, the basics are out of reach..

If you're content running the same skills over and over and over then you'd be right, but quite frankly I only know one person that can does that. Personally, I'm not having fun unless I have created a new build to run out with.

Ok, I do understand your pain a little more now.
I think our main difference here is that I've specialized in one profession (mesmer) at the moment and have one other (monk) I play regular.
Before this it was ranger and monk.
When I would be playing my 7 PvE characters all at the same time, it would be a huge gold drain indeed.

My mesmer and monk are both more than a year old, meaning they have unlocked the majority of their primary skills already.
I try to make builds that give benefit to the primary, that makes a lot of skills useless.
I also checked wiki on skill description (faster than checking at Balth. priest), since by the description you can find out quite fast if a skill is worth 1K .

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Keys and chests are a basic game elements, having fun shouldn't be restricted to those that have big bank accounts.

Keys have been known to be gold drains for a long time now, even before loot scaling.
One of the first lessons people with low cash were told (after the infamous 'just go farm gold') was to stop opening chests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exodous

I see farming as something that automatically disqualifies somebody from being a casual player.

I have to agree on this one.
Playing the storyline and side quests does net enough gold to cover basic needs.
Prophecies was hard on cash, specially on my first character.
My second had the advantage of having a higher level character providing left-over collectable drops for armor and some maxed (white/blue) weapons, making things easier on that one.

With Factions, I made sure both my Sin and Rt were able to fund themselfs, which was totally possible. In this time, I did a little VwK farming to get Kephket's and to get my monk 15K Kurzick (with Amber still expensive).
I got bored after a couple of days (a few days a run), so I got back pugging.

With Nightfall, cash was even less of a problem. Both my Para and Dervish paid their own 15K Sunspear armor, gained by gameplay (they both never reached Vabbi, so they were not that far in the game).
All this was without farming to fund them.
A couple of months ago I started farming with a guildie, duo monk several areas. This was for the fun and the cash is still on my monk. Some golds moved to storage and mule characters, I have not sold a single one in the game.

With normal gameplay (playing full teams) I managed to get:
- Skill Hunter Tyria/Cantha on my mesmer (that's a lot of cap-sigs)
- a couple of Vabbi armor parts on my mesmer
This was not in a couple of days, but more in a couple of months.
I made most of the cash for this with my three GMC titles (exploring with full teams) and helping people out on HM missions/vanquishing.

I know this is my experience, but stating that this is not possible for a 'casual player' is just not true. It just takes time.

Brianna · Jun 26, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

[QUOTE=manitoba1073]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

Sorry but your another wrong person who thinks loot scalling helped. It was the exemptions to loot scaling that brought the prices down. Dont believe me just remember the first 12 hours of loot scaling before Anerf added the exemptions.

I don't care what it was, my point was with the entire new system i can afford crap for the first time now, and i STILL make good money, For the people who cant make good money you must be lazy as hell, or just don't know where to farm. You can pretty much always beat the system.

Alas Poor Yorick · Jun 26, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Ummm - before you go on with this debate - is there anything left to debate about?

My experience is that lately, in normal mode, at least in low level areas, there is no more loot scaling in effect. The first 5 or so kills in each area drop very little. (that's actual kills, not first 5 mobs - if you run past the first few mobs the first 5 kills you make still yield almost nothing) After that I have received a drop from every single kill in normal mode in Shing Jea, Pre-searing, and Istan. Soloing in other areas is more difficult but I have received a high drop rate trapping vamps in normal mode in Urgoz Warren. Outside Bergen I was running a bad build for the area but managed to kill 20 after the first group of 5 and got a drop for every single one.

I honestly believe loot scaling has been removed from normal mode/low end areas and perhaps from normal mode altogether.

So, how about trying some soloing out in different areas before carrying on with this debate?

Destro Maniak · Jun 26, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Ok, I do understand your pain a little more now.
I think our main difference here is that I've specialized in one profession (mesmer) at the moment and have one other (monk) I play regular.
Before this it was ranger and monk.
When I would be playing my 7 PvE characters all at the same time, it would be a huge gold drain indeed.

My mesmer and monk are both more than a year old, meaning they have unlocked the majority of their primary skills already.
I try to make builds that give benefit to the primary, that makes a lot of skills useless.
I also checked wiki on skill description (faster than checking at Balth. priest), since by the description you can find out quite fast if a skill is worth 1K .

Keys have been known to be gold drains for a long time now, even before loot scaling.
One of the first lessons people with low cash were told (after the infamous 'just go farm gold') was to stop opening chests.

I have to agree on this one.
Playing the storyline and side quests does net enough gold to cover basic needs.
Prophecies was hard on cash, specially on my first character.
My second had the advantage of having a higher level character providing left-over collectable drops for armor and some maxed (white/blue) weapons, making things easier on that one.

With Factions, I made sure both my Sin and Rt were able to fund themselfs, which was totally possible. In this time, I did a little VwK farming to get Kephket's and to get my monk 15K Kurzick (with Amber still expensive).
I got bored after a couple of days (a few days a run), so I got back pugging.

With Nightfall, cash was even less of a problem. Both my Para and Dervish paid their own 15K Sunspear armor, gained by gameplay (they both never reached Vabbi, so they were not that far in the game).
All this was without farming to fund them.
A couple of months ago I started farming with a guildie, duo monk several areas. This was for the fun and the cash is still on my monk. Some golds moved to storage and mule characters, I have not sold a single one in the game.

With normal gameplay (playing full teams) I managed to get:
- Skill Hunter Tyria/Cantha on my mesmer (that's a lot of cap-sigs)
- a couple of Vabbi armor parts on my mesmer
This was not in a couple of days, but more in a couple of months.
I made most of the cash for this with my three GMC titles (exploring with full teams) and helping people out on HM missions/vanquishing.

I know this is my experience, but stating that this is not possible for a 'casual player' is just not true. It just takes time.

OMG man! I thought you were casual player as you said but well.... You have title hunters and GMC`s! You may not be hardcore but are you sure you are casual. Most casuals I know dont have 15k armor or skill hunter or GMC! You surely would get 15k armors if ya earn GMC.I t would take much longet then farmin BEFORE NERF. I have like 700k in storage now and i am not spending it for like 2 month. FOR ME ITS REALLY LONG TIME TOGET 700. i was used t \o earn like 700k in 1-1.5 weeks it had hurted me ALOT. Can anyone tell me who benefited other then bots? bots can sell gold easier now and everyone know no one losts acount of gold buying. In my old allience many people were buying and telling they dont get near banned. they really had 4-5 set of fow(what a useless work of real money to get game lol) After all as bots still continue farm they should make gol\od money. the only thing that casuals may benefit would be if they had like50k 100k item woukld be donw to 50k and be able to but after all a zodiac sword went down from millions to 100k still arent their buseness they still cant get it beside armors gone harder to get

yukimura_gw · Jun 26, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukimura_gw

Anyway, I still think Loot Scaling wasn't the way to go and I surely
won't buy GW:EN and GW2 if Loot Scaling is still in effect. I know,
I know, you won't regret me. I will find my fun elsewhere.

Quoting myself, I bought Lord of the rings Online and it's great.
Hobbit burglar FTW.

I will still look out if loot scaling is removed from GW and might
come back someday if it is removed. I don't want to buy money
from money reseller and don't have huge amount of time to spent
to farm right now.

Sure, monthly fees suck but at least I don't think they will prevent
me from playing the way I want to play. Farming is great when it's
not too complicated and it's pay for the time you invest in it(IMHO).

See ya some day and most importantly.... have fun. ^_^

Loviatar · Jun 26, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

But sadly enough, it doesn't. Does 2K now give you 2 Superior Salvage Kits, or 4 skills? No.

first example of financial stupidity.

superior kits cost 20 per cent more per use so buy the regular kits buy 4 get the 5th kit free

Quote:

I DID have to farm. Now, I can't speak for everyone, either, but what I want is good for everyone (more cash for everyone is good than less cash for everyone, in a market where most stuff has fixed prices).

runes/mods/insignias are not fixed and i need them at a good price much more than you need to buy another skill

Quote:

We're not all experienced, either. When playing a new character, you don't know which skills are good or not. I, for one, don't want to walk with the same skills all the time. I want to try out new builds and combinations. But that, too, has been killed by the lootscaling

B]espcially since you can test drive the skill for FREE and then decide if you want it after all.[/B]

Quote:

And we casual players want to enjoy the game too, by buying keys. Just because this lootscaling is here, we can't.

if you are playing the game for the joy of chest opening ........
keys are like a lotto ticket not needed and loses most of the time

reetkever · Jun 26, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

first example of financial stupidity.

superior kits cost 20 per cent more per use so buy the regular kits buy 4 get the 5th kit free`

I never said I actually used Superior Salvage Kits, did I? It was just an example. Superior Salvage Kits were handy to save space, but now that I can't even fill my Backpack after 2 hours of killing, there's no need.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

runes/mods/insignias are not fixed and i need them at a good price much more than you need to buy another skill

Why do you need them more? Runes drop farily often, and superior runes are exempt from the loot scaling. No problems should be there for you. Or you could farm.. Oh wait, you can't cause it's nerfed...

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

B]espcially since you can test drive the skill for FREE and then decide if you want it after all.[/B]

How can you test drive a skill for free? I can't place a skill on my skillbar for free somehow, exept in PvP, but PvP and PvE are 2 entirely different things, so the skills work entirely different as well.

And reading doesn't work either. If a skill says it does +41 damage, the actual damage done is still 5-10.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

if you are playing the game for the joy of chest opening ........
keys are like a lotto ticket not needed and loses most of the time

I think I may decide what I enjoy or not. I don't care about the drops, I like the thrill of opening chests. It's not needed, but who cares?

Do you live on dry bread and water? No. This is a game, should we be allowed to do nothing but the basics? Or can we enjoy a bit, as well?

Cale Roughstar · Jun 26, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Just as an aside, why is everyone using Superior Salvage Kits as an example of the detrimental effects of loot scaling. I have a 55 monk that I made to solo HM, and he uses a Superior Salvage Kit, and do you know what its at? 65. THATS THE FIRST ONE. Seriously, do you guys salvage every single salvage item and anything that isnt gold? I have probably made my money back from my superior salvage kit 3 times over from all the steel ingots I have salvaged from things.

the_jos · Jun 26, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

I thought you were casual player as you said but well.... You have title hunters and GMC`s! You may not be hardcore but are you sure you are casual.

When people that solofarm are considered casual, I'm casual.
Before I started working on my mesmers titles, I was what I consider a casual player.
The only reason I'm not considering myself casual anymore is because I'm more dedicated on getting titles, but otherwise my gameplay is still that of the casual player (playing in 8 person groups, doing missions/quests/spending time on maps) perhaps with the exception of my playing times (1-2 hours/night and more on weekends).

Quote:

You surely would get 15k armors if ya earn GMC.

Not exactly, but it will get you a few pieces.

Destro Maniak · Jun 26, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

When people that solofarm are considered casual, I'm casual.
Before I started working on my mesmers titles, I was what I consider a casual player.
The only reason I'm not considering myself casual anymore is because I'm more dedicated on getting titles, but otherwise my gameplay is still that of the casual player (playing in 8 person groups, doing missions/quests/spending time on maps) perhaps with the exception of my playing times (1-2 hours/night and more on weekends).

Not exactly, but it will get you a few pieces.

Well I think the term of casual player means that the player doesnt cares about the game and finished storyline few character with 1-2 hour a day and maybe want a good looking weapon. If someone want to achive very hard titles they arent casual anymore

ponk · Jun 27, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

First off letme tell you I don't usually post reply's. But after reading most posts in this thread I thought I really had to.

This last week I spoke to a player who bought his obsidian the e-bay way.
Normally I would call him pathetic , but then reason set in. I started thinking why would people buy e-bay gold simple: They want something in the game that they found to hard to obtain via normal gameplay. Now what has A-Net done; they made it even harder to get this sort of elite stuff. So more players will go to e-bay cause they dont want to spend ages farming for it. The customer base off bot-companies must have doubled thanks to the loot-scaling hence the bot-companies don't care to buy more accounts to make up for the loot-scaling. Hey wait more accounts?? Where do they get those accounts, sure some our stolen accounts but a fast number will be bought from you've guessed it A-Net!! Oh man i really want to see the bonus the employee from A-Net got for figuring this one out. Reading through this post I found it laughable how naive some people are. Look A-Net is a company like any other who wants to make a decent profit they are not some kind of charity. As for me I still enjoy the game just don't enjoy it like I used to. The funny thing is we finally got that bigger storage so now we can fill it with stuff we will never sell. There is one thing A-Net could do to make me believe that they really want to get bots out: Make the 15k armors 0k and only require you to get crafting materials to get them wont that be funny?

KANE OG · Jun 27, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I've gotten my stash up quite nicely since loot scaling. Do you know why? Spite!

I had planned on working on titles while playing through the game with all of my characters, and expecting to make enough cash and materials to cover my ass for EoTN. Wasn't even coming close to happening, so I turned into a hardcore farmer.

Now, every character I have has a solo farming build on them 80% of the time, and I grind cash. Now I just wait for that stupid "bot-like behavior" message that anet seems to ador when banning people for the wrong reasons.

I'm loving it. Selling Dead Swords/Bows for 1k, max mods and inscriptions for 500 gold. So yeah, SPITE.

I definately won't be buying EoTN when it first hits the shelves like I did the others. There are some people' opinions I trust in these forums, and I'll watch their posts for a couple of months. Then I'll wait a bit longer for the screwups to get fixed, then a bit longer to see the first round of nerfs.

LotR.... Hmmmmmmmm.

KANE

keistje · Jun 27, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

What I don't understand is why it doesn't seem like people are willing to work for anything any longer. I do not consider myself a casual player, I tend to play 3-5 hours a day after work, and more on my weekends. I don't farm at all, as I find it boring, unless there is a green weapon I really want, and then I farm that one boss until I get it. Just running quests, vanquishing areas, or playing through elite areas like Tombs will net me around 3-5k minimum for a days playing, and I've never had more than 200k in storage. I don't sell to other players unless I just happen to see a WTB I can satisfy, and most of my greens and golds go to friends and heros.

So when I really wanted the Vabbian armor for my necro, I did what I thought most players did. I did as many quests for trade contracts as I could, (including running in characters from the other lands just to do Vabbi quests), bought gems from players when I saw a good price, and was *patient*. It took me 4 months to get my Vabbi, and I'm proud that I worked so hard for it. Every time I see it, I'm reminded that I really earned it. If I had been able to get it just on a whim, or in a very short period of time, it wouldn't mean anywhere near as much to me. I have 15 characters, some of whom have 15k armor and some who don't , and the ones I've worked for are the ones I take the most pride in. I want to get FoW for my monk, and I know it's going to probably take me a year, but I don't mind. It's a goal that's always in the back of my mind every time I get an ecto or shard drop. I've got a long way to go, but that's what happens when you want something elite.

Amy Awien · Jun 27, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

So only lucky people are casual players according to you? I'm not so lucky. Doing quests/missions does NOT give me the cash needed for the stuff I want to buy. The game's low reward and drop rate forces me to farm. So do I get the title of 'Hardcore farmer' then?

No, he did not say that only lucky people are casual players, he said that - and I agree with him - anyone who farms is not a casual player (and casual players don't farm). I assume that in all this farming means solo-farming - since the drops did not decrease for groups - and solo-farming is not something the casual player will do.

If you need to farm to meet your needs then I doubt your needs are casual. You don't need to farm solo to play this game.

Quote:

And we casual players want to enjoy the game too, by buying keys.

Buying keys is not casual. Keys are money pits, you spend more gold on buying the keys then you get back from the items.

Quote:

If A-Net really cared about casual players, they ...

Loot scaling improved the situation for the casual players, since the drops haven't been reduced for full sized parties. Since the prices in general have dropped, the casual player can now buy more for the same amount of combat and questing.

Quote:

How can you test drive a skill for free?

On the Battle Islands

Quote:

I think I may decide what I enjoy or not. I don't care about the drops, I like the thrill of opening chests.

Yes, you may.
It's a money sink and it means your needs for funding are not the same as those of a casual player. But I am sorry that you have to farm more now for those keys, that the scaling affected your gameplay negatively.

kradens · Jun 27, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

i liked the old system for loot was better than the new loot scaling method.

cant we have a poll or something to see how many players would prefer the old system to the new one?

i mean. i think the new system is pretty much the same as the older one, ecept white items are scaled.....and i used to generate a lot of money from selling white items.

BRING BACK THE OLD SYSTEM!!!!!

Master Sword Keeper · Jun 27, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Agreed.
As for the Loot Scaling Poll.

Granted.

I got a screenshot of me just finished killing 23 vermin and only receiving 5 drops. Do i need to say more?