Curse

noblepaladin · Jun 20, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

You are BAD at economics.

Actually, if he is selling at 80% of what it's worth on the guru auctions, then there has to be some people out there who want it at that price (since people are buying it at the price from the auctions).

I don't want to start the auction house discussion again, but one of the things about the game is that you can find some relatively rare skinned items that is probably worth something to some people, but it is more of a hassle to find a buyer. Suppose I want some obscure skin like a Fiery Bladed Axe, a Shadow Axe, or an Aerowind Blade (some of the "rarer" skins I have in my storage at the moment). I have no place to go looking for it, and if I want to sell them, I don't know have any good way to sell them. Sure there are major "market" towns like Lion's Arch, but it's just inefficient. I don't even bother selling stuff to players at all any more, it's a waste of time. I just put them on my heroes and leave them there.

It doesn't bother me that much, because I was never big on trading with other players (I rather play than spam all day). But it does take some of the thrill out of getting rare items. "Yay, another item for Koss," I'll continue gathering these crappy items and selling them to the merchant to make gold to unlock more skills (I've been trying to UAS for a while now).

Nekretaal · Jun 20, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Quote:

no one will buy an item for what it is worth

You fail at economics. The supply of items have gone up and to make sure one can sell their goods in a timely manner, the smart ones have started to lower prices. Also the buyers know the supply is up so they are less willing to fork over money.
.

No you fail at economics. The correct answer is "No one will sell an item for what it is worth."

Suppose an item is "worth" the average amount of time that an item can be farmed in.

However, due to lack of good trade, and a trad systems that consists of getting lucky spamming the cost to sell an item is... (1) time to farm the item plus (2) time to sell the time.

Since trade in this game is grossly ineffiecient, the cost of the time in spamming (and after all there are no other activities to do in town so you are stuck doing nothing but spamming when you are selling) is very real. And the very real time cost of spamming for trade is sometimes much higher than the cost of actually finding the item. The seller will want recompense for the time spent spamming and looking for buyers, but the buyer will not want to pay that, because that money is not part of the item's cost.

Therefore trade doesnt happen in guild wars, except for rare items. Items such as runes, weapon mods, or materials all have value in trade, but this value is so low that a seller will not brave the spam nightmare when he can make as much profit by simply vedoring them and playing the game. Thanks to Hard mode, and the Loot scale exemption for golds weapons... even most gold weapons no longer count as rare items.

youngstar · Jun 20, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

No you fail at economics. The correct answer is "No one will sell an item for what it is worth."

Suppose an item is "worth" the average amount of time that an item can be farmed in.

However, due to lack of good trade, and a trad systems that consists of getting lucky spamming the cost to sell an item is... (1) time to farm the item plus (2) time to sell the time.

Since trade in this game is grossly ineffiecient, the cost of the time in spamming (and after all there are no other activities to do in town so you are stuck doing nothing but spamming when you are selling) is very real. And the very real time cost of spamming for trade is sometimes much higher than the cost of actually finding the item. The seller will want recompense for the time spent spamming and looking for buyers, but the buyer will not want to pay that, because that money is not part of the item's cost.

Therefore trade doesnt happen in guild wars, except for rare items. Items such as runes, weapon mods, or materials all have value in trade, but this value is so low that a seller will not brave the spam nightmare when he can make as much profit by simply vedoring them and playing the game. Thanks to Hard mode, and the Loot scale exemption for golds weapons... even most gold weapons no longer count as rare items.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. It's almost not even worth it to try and sell an item nowadays.

Zedd Kun · Jun 20, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Double post, sorry..

Zedd Kun · Jun 20, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Put a rare and random Mursaat monk boss outside Altrumm and Bergan. Stupid

Give monsters in known "botspots" better skills (can i choose some?). Good Idea

Place monster spawn close to the door so that bots get spiked before they have chance to throw up a protective spirit. Hmm, that could be a pain for those who don't bot too, imagine if you connect before your whole group

Put a nice fat Oakheart in the area with a Natures Renewal. Those trees do like them don't they?

Good idea, put in more enemies with hexes and such

Investigate everyone with 800k+ on their account. Lol, you know how much that would cost, and how much time that would take?

Remove the 55 icon. Yes, I don't understand why they haven't done that long time ago

Reduce the health deduction on superior and major runes. No way, that would effect the whole gameplay.

Delete all gold and items from the account of anyone doing 100 solo runs in a day. How would Anet know that?

Ban anyone who hasn't logged off for 48 hours. Good idea

Investigate people exchanging massive sums of gold on a regular basis. Too much effort for Anet.. They don't have any "investigators"

Change the currency in Guild Wars and do a gold sweep. What?

Ban player to player trading and dropping of items/gold. Effoooort

Taxes! The more money you have, the more you pay. Make it undesireable to be wealthy! Stupidest, most ridicolous thing I have ever heard!!

Pay a fee for traveling alone. Lol. Just lol

Pay a fee of gold when you travel alone and make it climb with each new instance. ...

As previously mentioned, remove the signposts in towns/outposts and replace with signs created from the rocks etc that can't be clicked on. Adds realism too. Yeah, agreed, bots are useless without them

Randomise spawns. A program can't follow something that can't be followed. A good idea, I guess

Place new creatures in botspots - Fallen Heroes with Echo+Debilitating shot.

Dummy spirits that take no damage but still attack. Using /kneel will call down the gods to remove the incarnation. A bot would carry on attacking it and die. No

You have some good ideas, but most of them are nearly impossible to do..

LONGA · Jun 20, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Yeah I got a lesseon getting a ban here.Seems that you cat sell common stuffs like gold req 9-10 weapons that easy anymore.
Latey I've been saving for 15K amours .Its sure take longer but cant help about it.
Looks like I gonna need safe up collectible drops for the coming events.Who knows when you are going to be lucky.

yukimura_gw · Jun 20, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

The problem, for people like me, is that armor price didn't
went down with loot scaling.

A Vabbian Armor is like 150k-200k and getting money for
it is such a pain.

Most people like me decided to specialized in other form
of farming unsuccessfully. Market is now flooded with greens and
people are so poor that they won't purchase your stuff.

I tried to sell my Bone Dragon for 100k and it took me forever.
Must people tried to exchange me stuff for it instead of buying
it.

I really, really, really hate loot scaling.

Crotalus · Jun 20, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

However, due to lack of good trade, and a trad systems that consists of getting lucky spamming the cost to sell an item is... (1) time to farm the item plus (2) time to sell the time.

Why do it if GW does not support trading like other mmorpgs and is optional? You can easily make enough money just by playing through the missions/quests, use collector items, and not go crazy with the gold sinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukimura_gw

A Vabbian Armor is like 150k-200k and getting money for
it is such a pain.

Vabbian armor, keys, and other such items are gold sinks and not needed for regular play. You can do just fine with the Consulate Docks armor.

Honestly, complaining about gold sinks being gold sinks is just asinine.

reetkever · Jun 20, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Why do it if GW does not support trading like other mmorpgs and is optional? You can easily make enough money just by playing through the missions/quests, use collector items, and not go crazy with the gold sinks.

Vabbian armor, keys, and other such items are gold sinks and not needed for regular play. You can do just fine with the Consulate Docks armor.

Honestly, complaining about gold sinks being gold sinks is just asinine.

That's bs. A-Net is always saying they want to make everything accesable for all classes. So why do we have to live on collector's weapons and armor, only? I don't need Vabbian armor, but I DO want to buy some keys and open chests once in a while.

And as the game is now, 1,5K armor and skills are the biggest gold sinks. A-Net isn't making anything accesable. I've never complained about gold sinks before, because by investing time, I could get cash.

However, if A-Net goes saying that they're making things easily accesable, and I'm getting poor and I can't even buy my own skills, I might have a slight reason to be a little upset.

Enko · Jun 20, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I was approached by a fellow in Kamadan int. 1 this evening while helping a friend start out. I complimented him saying that I was impressed by his mini roller bettle and that he has used an everlasting roller beetle tonic. So he harrased me 3 times with a trade window, and finally I accepted becuase he said he wanted to give me something. Okay, I thought, perhaps he wanted to give me something for complimenting him, perhaps a bettle tonic becuase I had complimented him on that. He filled it from left to right a with a collection of mini pets, all of them rare, including a Mini Rollerbettle, A Panda, a Mini Ataxe, and several others, all of them in the 100K+xx range. Oh, and a roller bettle tonic

(and no, I didn't get any sort of gift from him, nor did i buy or recieve anything)

Perhaps people with these kinds of items should be investigated as well for botting, I would love to see the farming build this guy had if he had amassed all of those itesm out of just playing the game himself, no bots or E-bay buying, especially after loot scaling. Here's an idea, track the ultra rare items, see where they end up... After Loot scaling, that kind of money doesn't just float around.

so the people such as myself who has almost a complete set of minis should be investigated just because we have money? the guy probably made the money by trading since that's pretty much the only way to make mass gold now. most of the gold and ectos used to buy those items from other people were probably received before loot scaling was ever even in place.

since there aren't many large gold sinks in this game beyond buying new armors and going after the sweet tooth and drunkard titles, the gold supply just goes up thus making each point of gold not worth as much. loot scaling was designed to curb the large amounts of gold flooding into the economy. While I don't like it since I used to solo farm some and its not worth it to anymore, for the general players, it has dropped prices on most items as a whole. the only items are are continuing to rise are those that do not drop anymore such as the limited minis, everlasting beetle tonics, or unconditional +dmg mod weapons. everything else, the price is dictated by the sellers and buyers and most sellers will drop their prices just so they can spend less time selling.

KANE OG · Jun 21, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

I used to be a very casual farmer until loot scaling. Now I have turned hard-core because that's the only way to build up enough cash for the things I and my GF want. anet turned me into a nonstop farmer with their ridiculous nerf.

KANE

Gaia_Hunter · Jun 21, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Human farmers make the prices drop. See what happened to zodiac weaponry when u could solo farm the vampires in urgoz or what happened to the price of radiant insignias and bloodstained insignias, when they started to drop in prophecies and factions.

Bot farmes make the prices rise.

Loot scaling made gold coin hard to get to both human player and bots. Things exempt of loot scaling became more accesible to human players, and bots dont really have much use for those kind of items.

Still, if you want to make money in a timely fashion, farming or a very very lucky drop are the only ways to do it, cause 8 party play is still extremly non-rewarding.

jimmyboveto · Jun 21, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

You fail at economics. The supply of items have gone up and to make sure one can sell their goods in a timely manner, the smart ones have started to lower prices. Also the buyers know the supply is up so they are less willing to fork over money.

Finally someone who isn't totally stupid. It is amazing how many people out there will sit out there for days trying to get a bunch of money for an item that they are never going to get. The rule is pretty much, if you aren't able to sell it fairly quickly, then you are obviously asking too much. Time you waste asking too much for an item is time you could spend getting more items. I do believe A-Net needs to introduce a more stable way of making money into the game though, as the only real way of that is running atm. However, I hardly ever run or farm, and I still manage to have a few nice items, such as my war's elemental sword.

manitoba1073 · Jun 21, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
And @ the guy who said the supply of anything hasn't gone up... you clearly haven't been playing the game for that long. A 15^50 anything (as long as it wasn't a crafter skin) used to sell for 100k easily. The Yakslapper used to sell for over 120k. Stuff used to be WAY rarer and more valuable. NF has killed the rarity of items. If you don't believe me, talk to anybody who remembers the "good old days." .

I beg to differ on a few prices, Most common gold 15^50's where already cheap before even factions, only the rare skins were over 100k+. And I do remember the good ole days as when I made my req 7 15% always falchion. Prices for like the yakslapper and that where only high for a short time, till many started farming it as with all items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

QFT the loot scaling sucks badly, for example back in the day if needed materials for whatever, you could for example farm the trolls for half an hour and have a reasonable cache of material drops nothing outrageous, the odd black dye and maybe a couple of golds, but for me this was a good source of basic material wealth to be used for crafting or selling, now however you can clear the cave and out of twenty or so you will get maybe three or four white raven staffs.
Luckily i have had time to perfect all my characters and they dont need anything , but the newer players cannot benefit from the loot scaling as i and many other players did, and that is a shame, and yeah i remember the good old days Brohns Staff 80k.
The pre-nerf Rockmolder 100k+
happy days, i enjoyed the game more back then because if you wanted something 'elite' or super rare you had to go and work for it, now it seems that, everyone must be able to access everything for little or no effort, well ok but for me that takes all achievement out of the game ,after beating all campaigns several times there is not much of a story line to follow , so the only challenge i get now is to solo farm HM and that is rapidly getting boring to be honest.
But i guess that is what happens after playing this game intensely for over nineteen months or so.

Alot here I agree on the old days were great were it actually ment something when you found a gold and it was perfect.
Though for me farming will never get boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia_Hunter

Human farmers make the prices drop. See what happened to zodiac weaponry when u could solo farm the vampires in urgoz or what happened to the price of radiant insignias and bloodstained insignias, when they started to drop in prophecies and factions..

Very true

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia_Hunter

Bot farmes make the prices rise...

Very false, The people who buy gold from them are the ones that raise prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaia_Hunter

Loot scaling made gold coin hard to get to both human player and bots. Things exempt of loot scaling became more accesible to human players, and bots dont really have much use for those kind of items.

Still, if you want to make money in a timely fashion, farming or a very very lucky drop are the only ways to do it, cause 8 party play is still extremly non-rewarding.

Loot scaling has had NO EFFECT on bots, None. Only effect it has had is on normal players. The reason why 8 party loot was always different is cause its 8X easier.

Operative 14 · Jun 21, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

so the people such as myself who has almost a complete set of minis should be investigated just because we have money? the guy probably made the money by trading since that's pretty much the only way to make mass gold now. most of the gold and ectos used to buy those items from other people were probably received before loot scaling was ever even in place.

Yeah, actually I'm suggesting exactly that.

Since loot scaling, it has become very difficult to amass the wealth that is needed to buy these, so the only people who can afford these pets and items are A ) Honest people such as yourself, which would have nothing to fear from such an investigation, who made their money honestly and before it became too difficult, OR you worked much harder over the last few months to amasse it. I doff my cap to you if you did

. Or B ) Someone who has several bots working for him and bought these items to sell for profit.

There are, what, 100 Pandas and 100 Beetles? I have no idea how trades and storage are logged for Anet, and whether they can do a search for specific items. BUT, if they can, doesn't it seem pluasable that they might spend a few minutes to find out where these items went?

And by the way that was just an example, I didn't mean to insult anyone who worked hard for their items and rewards.

yukimura_gw · Jun 21, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Vabbian armor, keys, and other such items are gold sinks and not needed for regular play. You can do just fine with the Consulate Docks armor.

Honestly, complaining about gold sinks being gold sinks is just asinine.

Dude, there are people like me that like to build their character
and want them to have a perfect look.

For me, I can't do just fine with a Consulate Dock armor because
it doesn't have the look I want and most of people got the same.

When I started my MM 2 weeks ago, I couldn't afford Keineng
Center armor. I was stuck with my 30 armor.

When I play WoW, I can easily solo instances with my Rogue to
do some descent cash fast. When I played GW before loot scaling,
I could afford a Vabbian armor in a 2-4 days of farming. Now, I
can't afford anything.

LS was supposed to make things more affordable for casual players.
I don't think it made things really more affordable and I don't think
it stopped bots at all. I'm pretty sure Gold seller are praising A.net
for loot scaling. For the 1st time in my MMORPG (CORPG) experience,
i'm thinking about buying gold.

I like to farm for hours, I like to build by character but now it's less
and less entertaining doing this in GW.

R_Frost · Jun 21, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

loot nerf is making the game hard for a new character if you dont already have a nice gold, material and weapon supply. i have a survivor going right now. started him in Tyria. hes finished the missions in Tyria, up to Grand court in nightfall and at HzH and Cavalon in factions. currently sitting at 725k xp just playing the game. i have 12k gold on the character. ive played mostly hero/henc the whole time. drops have been so-so the whole way. only time i used my gold and materials in storage were to get max level armor. had i not done that it would of taken a long time to build up the materials for it. i couldnt of gotten collectors armor as the drops werent good enough to do so. i have made a decent amount of money though as i have capped 35 elites along the way. bought 10 regular skills ant the rest have been quested. with the loot nerf i feel the cost of skills should be lowered. granted the only skills ive bought are for specific builds, the reason i started the character in tyria was to avoid the skill cost so i can focus on early cheep elite skill caps. ive popped about 12 chests in hopes of finding something useable but all that has done is eat my gold. i can count on one hand the amount of keys that have been dropped through the whole time my survivor has been going. if i was someone new coming into the game i think i would of given it up by now as the less gold and lower drops and poor quality of dorps would make it hard to stay interested long enough to get to the higher level areas to experiance what is susposed to be the harder parts of the game.

Spazzer · Jun 21, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

Actually, if he is selling at 80% of what it's worth on the guru auctions, then there has to be some people out there who want it at that price (since people are buying it at the price from the auctions).

I don't want to start the auction house discussion again, but one of the things about the game is that you can find some relatively rare skinned items that is probably worth something to some people, but it is more of a hassle to find a buyer. Suppose I want some obscure skin like a Fiery Bladed Axe, a Shadow Axe, or an Aerowind Blade (some of the "rarer" skins I have in my storage at the moment). I have no place to go looking for it, and if I want to sell them, I don't know have any good way to sell them. Sure there are major "market" towns like Lion's Arch, but it's just inefficient. I don't even bother selling stuff to players at all any more, it's a waste of time. I just put them on my heroes and leave them there.

It doesn't bother me that much, because I was never big on trading with other players (I rather play than spam all day). But it does take some of the thrill out of getting rare items. "Yay, another item for Koss," I'll continue gathering these crappy items and selling them to the merchant to make gold to unlock more skills (I've been trying to UAS for a while now).

You may have thought that you discredited my statement, but you have done far from it. Maybe if you told me the last time you bought a Fiery Blade Axe, a Shadow Axe, or an Aerowind Blade from another player it would help your case.

I too have a gross excess of perfect equipment. I will not complain about it. I make my money by selling items that players actually want that they can't easilly get. The Market is not gone; it has simply moved.

Crotalus · Jun 21, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

So why do we have to live on collector's weapons and armor, only?

Casuals always had to live on collector weapons and armor. The only difference now is that many of the other prices, as confirmed by several high end traders in this topic as well as looking at the non-static merchants(rune, dyes, etc), are lower. Though not perfect for casuals, these items are at least attainable now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

And as the game is now, 1,5K armor and skills are the biggest gold sinks.

Skills should not be a part of gold sink. That is something i complained about before. Unfortunately they are and personally, i have started to treat them that way. No buying every skill at every new outpost and only unlocking when i need or have the money to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukimura_gw

Dude, there are people like me that like to build their character
and want them to have a perfect look.

If you want a perfect look then you will have to work for it. Arenanet simply will not give you that very expensive armor for a few days of farming. It depreciates the value of that item.

reetkever · Jun 21, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Casuals always had to live on collector weapons and armor. The only difference now is that many of the other prices, as confirmed by several high end traders in this topic as well as looking at the non-static merchants(rune, dyes, etc), are lower. Though not perfect for casuals, these items are at least attainable now.

No we didn't. Before the loot scaling, I never EVER had to collect drops to get collector's weapons. I always had a steady 100K in my storage. No, I didn't hardcore farm and I didn't play more than 3 hours per day. runes, dyes etc were never a problem to buy (except for stuff like sup vigor, of course (which is, btw STILL very expensive)).

Now, however, what A-Net says and do are once again just like PvE and PvP - 2 entirely different things. They say they make the loot scaling better for casual players. What they did, however, is make the gold weapons slightly less expensive (but still, nothing I could buy, being a casual), and they put the normal things like skills and armor WAY out of reach. GG A-Net, next time improve things for the farmers, cause all the farm nerfs are bad for the casuals as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crotalus

Skills should not be a part of gold sink. That is something i complained about before. Unfortunately they are and personally, i have started to treat them that way. No buying every skill at every new outpost and only unlocking when i need or have the money to do so.

This is easier said than done. When I create a character, I know nothing about the effectiveness and wether it plays good or not. When I buy a skill, I suppose it's good, but I'm not sure. Most of the time, the skill plays utter crap, and it goes off my skillbar again, and the empty spot has to be replaced.

And the ENDLESS skill balances don't make it easier, either. (I lost at least 30K on these balances, alone.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crotalus

If you want a perfect look then you will have to work for it. Arenanet simply will not give you that very expensive armor for a few days of farming. It depreciates the value of that item.

Before the loot scaling it was okay to work for it. 15K armor was reachable for anyone wanting to invest time. And that's how it SHOULD be. the value of that item doesn't go down, as it'll stay 15K per piece.

I agree it shouldn't be bought within a few days, but as it is now, it'll take me a year or ten before I have my first set of Obsidian Armor.