Curse

Yanman.be · Jul 31, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Remove HvH. It's not a game balance issue, it's just a retarded idea to have crappy AI do stuff. You only promote AI abuse. Certain skills can't be used by AI properly, so you'll never see them in HvH, and takes away the balance. Keep the maps, they're great, keep the shrine system, make them 4v4 tourneys.

hyro yamaguchi · Jul 31, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Remove Guildwars altogether

nmemoric · Jul 31, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

ANet is well aware that hero battles are currently rather lopsided towards the assassin teams. The problem is fixing things so they work ok here would potentially unbalance things elsewhere. Isaiah Cartwright (ANets skills guy) is looking into the matter though. You might want to go onto the Guildwars Wiki (wiki.guildwars.com)

thx, at least now I know that they actually are aware of the situation, but after all it looks like they can't handle it.
And that's what I don't understand - they know that this Mode is broken but they go on with Championships and giving Prices as if there was nothing wrong with it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

and actually make some suggestions rather than simply complaining it's broken.

I'll try my best but the point is that there already have been plenty of suggestions nevertheless nothing happened yet.
On top there had been discussions about "Skill-Blacklists" for HvH and stuff like this, so that HvH could be fixed on it's own without endangering gamebalance of other modes...

Anyway I didn't opened this threat just to complain that HvH is broken - I rather want to show ANET that this is an serious concern and that something must happen. (There is simply no more excuse that the situation hasn't become any better in more than three Months!)
Also I wanted to wake up the comunity because this concern hasn't been in spotlight lately.
Most people have either surrendered completely or just gone mainstream and play this bullshit by themselves in the meanwhile.

But still THERE ARE people who rather lose than play overpowered gimmick-builds...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Who says it doesn't take skill?

Even Isaiah Cartwright does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy

Sorry if this isn't in the overpowered skill section, it's just that the discussion there split differently on every skill and the problem is that it's not one skill alone that you look at and that's overpowered, it's the bar as a whole and the bar synergy. The fact that Assassins can solo spike someone in 5s or so doesn't fit with the rest of the game as a whole and doesn't promote exciting or skill-rewarding gameplay either imo. When your full bar consists of clicking skill 1 to 8 in order (truly 1 to 8, with SP-Expose-Tiger Stance-BLS-Horns-BSS-BoS-Impale, with absolutely no skill that can be used out of the combo) every 20 sec, and that it can actually work too, there's very little player skill involved (in the end you have absolutely no control over if you'll manage the kill or not because your tools have 0 flexibility, the best you can do is pick your target and hope their team won't manage to stop you) and it gets repetitive and boring to play with or against.

(source:http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...ce_tim ing.3F)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

You can change the format all you want but you'll continue to see the same people at the top.

I doubt that! If Assasins wouldn't be the Uber-char anymore, a lot of names would dissapear in nirvana.

Have you seen N/Rt-Spike Guilds playing sucessfully Balanced after Soul Reaping got nerved?...

lacasner · Jul 31, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

When your full bar consists of clicking skill 1 to 8 in order (truly 1 to 8, with SP-Expose-Tiger Stance-BLS-Horns-BSS-BoS-Impale, with absolutely no skill that can be used out of the combo) every 20 sec, and that it can actually work too, there's very little player skill involved (in the end you have absolutely no control over if you'll manage the kill or not because your tools have 0 flexibility, the best you can do is pick your target and hope their team won't manage to stop you) and it gets repetitive and boring to play with or against.

the make or break of sins, if izzy nerfs this combo he better balance the other existing sin skills. Or, if he just nerf horns of the ox to oblivion ull destroy this combo anyway, because the kd is key.

Ekelon · Jul 31, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Nmemoric,Izzy DID NOT say that. If you look at the end of the comment, a user named Patccmoi said that. Don't put words in his mouth please.

lacasner · Jul 31, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I didnt really quote him, i mentioned the comment and used his name in general because after all he does control the skill balances.

nmemoric · Jul 31, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

Nmemoric,Izzy DID NOT say that. If you look at the end of the comment, a user named Patccmoi said that. Don't put words in his mouth please.

oh yes I see, sry my fault...

but anyway this quote hits the nail on the top

Draikin · Jul 31, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Patccmoi did hit the nail on the head, but he was talking about the SP build itself and not Hero Battles. You're forgetting that there are three heroes on your team that you need to control. Even if the SP sin itself is a limited build that doesn't require much skill to run, you're still controlling three other heroes at the same time. If you can't do that then you can click 132456 as much as you want but you're not going to get anywhere.

NeHoMaR · Jul 31, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Here the list of the greatest exploiters of GW history.

selber · Jul 31, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

Here the list of the greatest exploiters of GW history.

Well, it's a good thing if players are looking for loopholes and exploit gamemechanics in a competive game. It's just sad if the producers of the game don't walk the same road and fix obvious problems once they are revealed.

All in all I don't think Herobattles are really fixable. There are too many problems like the interface of GW, the cumbersome AI, the lack of really deep and interesting strategies to win games, the inability to change your counters once a game has started (general problem with GW-PvP) and slow & often inaccurate balanceupdates.

I really would like to enjoy this gamemode, but I can't. It just doesn't fit to GW and they should have concentrated to improve the accessability of GWs strongest and most successfull PvP-mode, namely GvG. Herobattles were introduced, because NCsoft saw how many people were asking for 1v1-mode. Yet, they totally failed to see this can't be done in Guild Wars, because it was never designed to support 1v1 in the first place. I doubt the gamedesigners of Anet were happy about the decision to have to produce a 1v1-mode.

I wonder how many more MMOs have to be crushed by SOE before clueless marketing-puppies realize it's not a good thing to give players what they are crying for.

nmemoric · Jul 31, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

You're forgetting that there are three heroes on your team that you need to control. Even if the SP sin itself is a limited build that doesn't require much skill to run, you're still controlling three other heroes at the same time.

No I don't!
Maybe you're forgetting, that everyone has to control his heroes, especially if you run an Non-Assassin-Build!
And Assassins are the ones who have it pretty easy as they don't have to care much about their own killing. After choosing their target, they have just push their skills from left to right and can fully concentrate on their micromanagement whilst dealing insane damage.

Now take a look at an Knockdown-Warrior for example: He hast to watch his target exactly to time his knockdowns, watch out for every enchantments as they are more important for him - and still has to control his heros in the meanwhile....

Ekelon · Jul 31, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmemoric

No I don't!
Maybe you're forgetting, that everyone has to control his heroes, especially if you run an Non-Assassin-Build!
And Assassins are the ones who have it pretty easy as they don't have to care much about their own killing. After choosing their target, they have just push their skills from left to right and can fully concentrate on their micromanagement whilst dealing insane damage.

Now take a look at an Knockdown-Warrior for example: He hast to watch his target exactly to time his knockdowns, watch out for every enchantments as they are more important for him - and still has to control his heros in the meanwhile....

The first paragraph is a /agree from me.

But the second paragraph is where the knockdown warrior closely relates to the sin. From the perspective you give to a sin, the KD warrior is the same as wacking away until you build adrenaline and the push the skills in order, 12345 (except for warrior it's even easier as you have less buttons to push). In the other perspective, the sin also has to watch, sometimes it's smarter to wait and lag in between the combo and use the horns of the ox as not just a knockdown but also an interrupt. You may also want to wait extra seconds for a guardian to wear off and the like. Shadow prison can also be used as a snare during important times. I myself have actually gained a shrine by mere fractions of seconds due to bodyblocking.

nmemoric · Jul 31, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

But the second paragraph is where the knockdown warrior closely relates to the sin.

yes true, I just tried to use an example which is easy to understand.
And perhaps I chose it because of the similarity - they both kill their target on their own.
But an Knockdown-Warrior is ineffective if he uses his knockdowns to early and it's also not good if he waits to long...
Now imagine what Players have to do, who don't play characters who can kill on their own. I tell you, you've to micro like insane...

And of course you can play Assassins with more brain or just push the skills.
But there's also the problem: If the Assassin was only in that moment so strong when a Player had real skills, there would probably be no big problem.
But at the moment, players who don't have much skill, can play in top 100 without much effort.

Draikin · Aug 01, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmemoric

Now imagine what Players have to do, who don't play characters who can kill on their own. I tell you, you've to micro like insane...

I've been playing a Mo/W since the start of the ladder so that means I depend on my heroes to make kills. The real problem however is not that I have to control my heroes, but the fact that I have to power through the defense of a Rt/N and a Mo/E with just two heroes, both of which need some form of self heal that allows them to survive on a split when needed so they aren't dealing much damage to begin with. What makes things worse is that the third hero is usually away capping shrines. The current format just doesn't allow you to actually build a team, rather you're creating three 1v1 builds.

spellsword · Aug 01, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

At least assasins can get into some PvP for once.

Theus · Aug 01, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by spellsword

At least assasins can get into some PvP for once.

Yeah..cause you never see Assassins playing RA,TA,AB,Fort Aspenwood,or Jade Quarry.

And no,HvH isn't GvG/HA Calibur pvp.

Sorry.Until Anet fixes the fact that its absolutely terrible,it won't be considered as such.Even with a ladder.

Sarevok Thordin · Aug 01, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Sure the whole build thing sucks for HvH, but why are some people suggesting making it 4v4 o_O

The defining thing is it's a solo human player effort.