Curse

hallomik · Aug 02, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Let's do a little thought experiment.

Suppose Anet decided not to actively support GuildWars any longer. They would keep running the servers, but would stop all banning for any reason. Suppose as a parting gesture, they eliminated loot scaling and any AOE AI fleeing by mobs.

All you would have to do would be to go buy or download some bot programs. While you were at work or school all day, your monk would gather a couple hundred plat which you could then come home to. The absolute worst players could have near limitless gold. Want a medium rare green item? Set up your program to farm a boss and come home to 11 Ghial's Staffs.

A gamer's paradise, no?

No.

I would quit GW without a moments hesitation if that became the direction of the game.

The day Anet stops combatting bots is the day I find a new MMO.

I think Anet knows it's really game over if GW becomes bot-tolerant. That means the battle will have to continue even if they never wipe out their enemy. The issue is that the tactics Anet use to prosecute the war cause collateral damage. The innocent party that will take the brunt of the occasional friendly fire: the not-so-casual farmer. This fellow will be smacked about the head and face because all weapons that work against botters hit him, too.

The war on bots brought us loot scaling, my friend. Still don't think bots are a problem?

Batou of Nine · Aug 02, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

If wealth actually gave a player an advantage over others, I could see the point in pouring resources into stopping the bots. But really what is more important:

1) Gameplay issues
2) Balance issues
3) Players eBaying to make their virtual barbie pretty

[[Warning: A bit preachy. sorry.

]]

LoL! QFT...

...although 50% of this game is about aesthetics. Honestly, there is no real longevity to PvE, therefore all pursuits after the fact are for aesthetic reasons (Armor, titles, item skins, etc). Like Rocthoh said...the GW "economy" only really affects the aesthetics of the game.

However, we cannot simply write off those such players; a LARGE percentage of gamers are mainly PvE, partly because it is difficult for the average casual player to fully enjoy high end PvP. With that in mind, we now see a large portion of GW population being affected by bot farmers.

Inflation in the economy, the depressing knowledge that you spent hours working for a goal when joe shmoe spent 20 bucks and got 20 times more then you by spending 5 minutes buying ebay gold, backlash to innocent players from game actions vs bots, hundreds of thousands of 'dummy' accounts cramming GW game servers, profits scewed away from the supporting company (less revenue for Anet to keep the game servers going?) etc etc etc. Those and many many more reasons are why botters are heavily fought against. There is not one online game out there that doesn't fight this infection to a game's community.

Personally, no it does not affect me. This is only because i do not hardly ever deal with the GW public economy. I do not worry about following such and such item being sold too high, or such and such item losing value before i can greatly profit off of its sale. I play the game as i wish... every so often i play the market as the opportunity rises and still do very well for myself in game.

In the end, it would simply be healthy overall for a game to be able to get rid of all botting. Unheard of, and possibly impossible (conundrum?), but an understandable goal.

And no, Anet will never sell in game gold themselves. That is a stupid market play because then they would have to deal directly with outsourced competition. They would then be in direct competition with ebay gold sellers. It is a lose/lose situation. If they were pro-active about competition, the prices would eventually get driven into the ground, and trade values as well as the overall game economy would be utterly devastated; and an online game without an economy can just about destroy the player community, driving away customers or any further profits. If they took the fixed method, and decided to ignore competition, they would lose sales and gross profits across the board as all competitors would be selling below them. This would again bring forth the question of, "How long can they support the servers without making any revenue?".

Not to offend, but the OP came across a little naive about this issue. Simply because it does not affect you, doesn't mean it isn't a "big deal". It is a BIG deal for many. Some people may not care that something is overpriced, but for others, part of their 'fun' is being able to attain said item. That makes it something that DOES affect them, and that is a large part of the GW population. Saying that there is no definitive proof about bots negativily affecting the game, leaves me speechless. So, if hundreds of thousands of accounts are flooding an online community with ebay gold, how exactly DOES one think that would affect the game? If one thinks it would be anything BUT negative, i would love an explanation.

In conclusion, there really is no true answer on what to do about bot farmers. Just like the real world, as long as their is the demand, so is the pursuit of profit (ergo the demand).

cheers.

EDIT:: Just saw this above my post::

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

<snip>

Well said! Here Here!

manitoba1073 · Aug 02, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

Let's do a little thought experiment.

Suppose Anet decided not to actively support GuildWars any longer. They would keep running the servers, but would stop all banning for any reason. Suppose as a parting gesture, they eliminated loot scaling and any AOE AI fleeing by mobs.

All you would have to do would be to go buy or download some bot programs. While you were at work or school all day, your monk would gather a couple hundred plat which you could then come home to. The absolute worst players could have near limitless gold. Want a medium rare green item? Set up your program to farm a boss and come home to 11 Ghial's Staffs.

A gamer's paradise, no?

No.

I would quit GW without a moments hesitation if that became the direction of the game.

The day Anet stops combatting bots is the day I find a new MMO.

I think Anet knows it's really game over if GW becomes bot-tolerant. That means the battle will have to continue even if they never wipe out their enemy. The issue is that the tactics Anet use to prosecute the war cause collateral damage. The innocent party that will take the brunt of the occasional friendly fire: the not-so-casual farmer. This fellow will be smacked about the head and face because all weapons that work against botters hit him, too.

The war on bots brought us loot scaling, my friend. Still don't think bots are a problem?

No it was Aerfs botphobia that brought the loot scalling. Funny how what you are say would ruin the game would actually improve it 10 fold.

Sol Deathgard · Aug 02, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Ebay? That's why people care. Although I'm sick of anet making stupid changes like loot scaling to try and stop bots, and all they do is hurt real players while the bots just adapt.

if the lazy sobs that buy game gold with real money would actually play the freaking game they bought instead, then bots would be outta business, so you don't like some of the things anet has done to stop bots, blame the idiots that give bots a reason to exist.

free_fall · Aug 02, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

The only reason bots exist is the ridiculously astronomical prices insatiably greedy players try to sell things for and the willingness of other players to go to any lengths (like buying gold on eBay) to buy those things. Eliminate the high prices and you eliminate the bot problem. It really is that simple.

Here's a modest proposal that I think would go a long way towards reducing, if not eliminating, the bot problem that is both simple and effective:

PRICE CAPS

Every dropped item in GW (except quest items) has a monetary value, it's right there in the item's description.

Simply cap the amount any item can be sold for to another player to, say, 100 times that monetary value. Heck, let's be generous and say 150 or 200 times that value.

I've never seen a gold item that had a value more than 500g; I've occassionally gotten some 4xxg items, but most decent ones generally fall somewhere in the 2xx-3xx range.

As an example of how this would work:

Let's say the cap is set at 150x. Player A has a gold sword with a merchant value of 362g. The most he can sell that sword for is 54,300g. Sure, he can try to sell it for more than that amount, but when player B puts more than that 54,300g into the trade window, the trade is disallowed. To prevent him from attempting to collect more by thowing in some bones or tanned hides, materials could not be sold for more than the material traders sell them for. To prevent him from thowing in crappy whites or blues, a series of caps would need to be implemented:
whites - 5x
blues - 10x
purples - 25x
golds - 100x (or 150x or 200x)

Now, Player A could still get more than 54,300g for that sword by throwing in 6 purples - with an average price of, say, 150g, that would be another 22,500g.

Greens would either be exempt from the cap or, alternatively, cap them the same as golds and then use an update to re-assign their merchant value from the present 35g to 350g.

When people can no longer sell items for 100k + xx ectos, people wouldn't need to buy gold on eBay in order to buy them. Anet could get rid of loot scaling, everyone would have plenty of money and, more importantly, could afford to buy nice things. It's a win-win situation for everyone.

I don't know about you but selling an item with a merch value of 362g for 54,300g represents a pretty tidy profit to my mind.

Now, I'm not a programmer, so I don't know how difficult something like this would be to implement but I would imagine that adding a price cap calculator to the trade window would be pretty rudimentary, compared to things like loot scaling, anti-farming code, enemy AI, Hero/hench AI, etc. that already exist in the game.

As a first step, maybe they should consider un-hiding an item's merch value when the item is displayed in the trade window.

Ivan Aidrann · Aug 02, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I don't even know where to start... you're right, who cares about bots and people selling gold on ebay? I don't...

The people I absolutely HATE are the IDIOTS who go out and actually buy the gold from ebay, ruining the game... idiots...

Selor · Aug 02, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

i can understand anets reasons for wanting to rid their game of bots but why do regular players even care? other then conjecture, there really is no definitive proof that bots either negatively or positively impact the game.

its against the eula, sure, but what about leeching, rage quitting etc? i can almost guarantee that leechers and rage quitters have negatively effected players more then any bot.

So an influx of 100s of ectos a day, since most botters have multiple accounts, wont affect the price at all? And we will still make the same amount of money? What about if lets say, Saudi Arabia dumped millions of liters of oil every few hours, would not the price raise? Guild Wars economy works on the same lines, the bots will make everything worth nothing, and then there will be no items that make someone seem omgpro any more

Surena · Aug 02, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

There was never ever a problem to make gold in this game, either by farming or powertrading. The latter always worked even when more and more sharks appeared over time.

You have to be and idiot to believe that having all "elite gear" gives you an advantage and you're a bigger idiot if you actually believe you NEEd those weapons to maintain your virtual status or any of those many titles.

Did Bots really ruin the game (experience) for you or are you hunting a ghost that never bothered you?

AscalonWarrior · Aug 02, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

Did Bots really ruin the game (experience) for you or are you hunting a ghost that never bothered you?

Or are the people who complain about bots ruining the game with their complainings?

Jiao Yang · Aug 02, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I think the biggest reason is that it's not fair, mainly because the botter doesn't have to do anything while the real person has to work harder for his loots, money, etc..

If you feel that you're having to 'work hard' to get something in the game, and you're not happy with doing so, then why are you even doing it? It's a game. Have fun.

On the subject of bots, I think that people wouldn't mind them being here if Anet didn't mind. Loot scaling for example, and the earlier anti-farming code may not have been put it place if bots weren't so active in the game.
I don't really see why Anet cares. I assume some or most of the accounts the bots use are bought in a legit way.. so they're actually making money out of them.
Because the players don't pay for in game gold, Anet aren't losing out by it being sold on unofficial websites, or on Ebay.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Aug 02, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

As a few have stated the reason PVE players (for me anyway) hate BOTs is because Anet nerfs the game to stop them and in return nerfs the game for the rest of us.

It is a vicious circle. Players have a hard time acquiring gold to buy stuff. These players buy gold from BOTers the BOTers farm more gold.

Anet nerfs monster drops to stop BOTs. Now that monster drops have been nerfed Players have even less gold so they buy more gold from the BOTers.

Anet applies the anti-farming code to reduce drops from the nerfed monster drops to stop the BOTs. Players now suffer from nerfed monster drops and anti-farming code so their gold income drops even more. Players then buy more gold from BOTers.

The BOTers now see that every time Anet does something to stop them it increases their customers, so they create more BOTs.

Anet then adjust the way creatures hold argo to stop BOters. Players now have nerfed monster drops, anti-framing code, and argo management to deal with and acquire even less gold than before. These players then buy more gold from the BOTers.

Anet starts banning BOTers, but then begins selling trial keys

Boters buy the keys and continue on with their booming market.

Anet then decides to implement loot scaling to stop the BOTers when they open up Hard Mode. Loot scaling is implemented but monster drops remain nerfed, however the argo management is reset and the anti-farming code is removed (I still suspect that if you were smote with the code before loot scaling it was not removed, and what they meant about the code was it would not be applied from this point on) and Players now have Hard Mode to farm gold items, runes, tomes, lock picks, ect, ect... but Players only get 1/8, 1/6 or 1/4 of the drops they were currently getting.

Farming in Normal mode is demolished, yet Hard Mode while not as profitable as farming in Normal mode preBOT Wars can turn some coin. So now new players and casual players in Normal Mode receive 1/4 - 1/8 of their farmed loot from the nerfed monsters causing them to make less money so they buy gold.

Mean while the BOTers have found out that Hard Mode is a gold mine they never dreamed of. Loot scaling caused BOTers to have to create more BOTs to deal with the loot scale, but in Hard Mode they are getting better drops and have the ability to farm it 24/7. They make just as much gold and hour, but because of the Loot scale now charge more because of the old supply and demand rule.

I believe that if Anet had seriously started banning BOTs and their buyers from the get go and left well enough alone with drops, farming and everything else the BOTers would have eventually left because in the beginning there were no keys so every ban would have cost 50 bucks and eventually it would no longer be profitable, players who bought gold would not do it again out of fear of loosing their account and honest players would have had more opportunities to make their own gold and would not have needed to buy it.

So now we are stuck with what we got and it doesn't look like it is going to get better because of the few who buy their wealth instead of earning it have ruined parts of a great game.

So I guess I can't blame the BOTs and should redirect my Hate toward those who buy gold instead of earning it.

rancidgoat · Aug 02, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaje vhanli

I find that you think your opinion of me actually matters rather humorous. Thanks.

My opinion of you may not matter to you but you cannot argue with facts.

upier · Aug 02, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Because Botters can play 150+ hours a week, getting millions of gold, while I can only play, maybe 40 hours a week max, getting a few thousand gold.

That's what pisses me off.

And what makes botting look better and better.

Thank you!
If I had been drinking something I would have spit it all over my PC screen!
Or I was a a young girl - I'd prolly pee myself!
Seriously dude - I have only two words for you - and I have a sneaky feeling that they might help!
Penis enlargement!

I was always under the impression that people who are against bots are against them because of only one reason:
A.net hates them.
Thus by hating the bots also - they feel that they will get on A.net good side.
Yes, I am aware that that might not apply to all BUT judging by some posts, I can safely say - Yes ladies and Gents, some folks are really THAT dumb!

Malice Black · Aug 02, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Bots don't bother me because I see this for what it is, a game. I don't give a toss about the botters, the ebayers, the whiners, the elitist, the poor etc

I play to entertain MYSELF, everyone else is of no great importance. If you entertain me then we'll get along, if you play my way then we'll get along etc

BTW - Players cause inflation not bots. It is a player controlled market after all.

Players price themselves out of the market with their greed. I swear it's inbuilt into people head that EVERY new item has to have a S/B of 100k and they won't take anything less.

Mordakai · Aug 02, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Here's the thing:

With HoM coming out, we find that collecting items, mini-pets, etc. will unlock certain unique things in GW2.

It's human nature to want to collect everything. Unfortunately, unless you're lucky enough to be able to play this game many hours every day, there is no way you'll be able to collect everything.

Thus is the temptation to ebay.

It's hard to say it's "cheating", since buying gold will not give you much of an advantage over someone who just buys what they need to play (max armor, max runes, Green weapons, etc.)

But as long as there are things that people want, and there is an easy way to get those things, then ebaying will exist. It's called supply and demand.

I don't really understand the difference between buying Gold directly from Anet or buying a CE or Magazine just to turn around and sell the mini-pet for 100k +. It's the same thing, really.

Hell, Anet doesn't even have to sell gold. Just sell us 15k armor and rare mini-pets online. Cheating? Just because I have a life, and can't play Guild Wars 24-7?

nikkesen · Aug 02, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

If they wanted to make botting non-profitable, they could increase the rate at which certain desirable items drop. With a market flooded with goods, there is no room to charge a lot because someone will always be willing to sell for less than what you want.

In any supply and demand structure, to keep prices low, you need to have the market flooded with a certain good. IF there is more than enough to meet the existing demand, the price will remain low. If the demand is greater than the supply, the price will be higher.

To defeat bots, you need to flood the market with the good they want to profit off of.

Bots don't hurt my game play experience. Leechers, quitters, assholes, racists and generally unpleasant people are the ones who do. Bots don't play with anyone, so they have yet to actually ruin my game play.

Diablo™ · Aug 02, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I don't really understand the difference between buying Gold directly from Anet or buying a CE or Magazine just to turn around and sell the mini-pet for 100k +. It's the same thing, really.

Which I agree, they're not exactly a good idea on Anet's part. But forgivable because they're still within an "expense range".... besides collector's editions, magazine merchandises and cross promotional items are cheap enough for most people. Still it doesn't prevent bundle purchases in order to make profit, so if Anet takes this marketing strategy even further, it would indeed be a sign of hipocrisy.

Voltar · Aug 03, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

people who farm and try to get lots of gold selling rare items care. gold farmers/bots lower the prices by flooding the market and selling things for less. so generally, high-end farmers are hurt and people who buy the items are helped. those of us who do neither are minimally or not at all affected. 13k sup runes i guess was a good benefit for that grouop i guess.

Malice Black · Aug 03, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Increasing the drop rate again solves nothing, it will only lead to more threads here on GwG complaining about the quality of drops instead of the quantity of drops.

Also, by increasing the drop rate you will only make certain items more desirable. The price of a perfect HoH item would rise, the price of nerfed items would rise etc

TheLichMonky · Aug 03, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Blah blah all this rage... fact is anet likes bots oO when a bot gets banned, what does he/she do? BUY A NEW ACCOUNT, o my anet makes money off of them, if anet didnt want them they could make superior runes not stack with the - health and make some minor changes, nuff said