Curse

lacasner · Aug 10, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

haha i love it!

attitude towards ritspike: lol that build sucks it doesn't require any skill nerf it

attitude towards other builds: lol that build sucks its too hard to play

ahh, gotta love PvPers

I'd really like to see the builds some of the nerf herders run.

Your stereotypes fail.

Miral · Aug 10, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Say whats with the constant Buffing of adrenaline Gain with every skill update?? Might as well make Warrior skills totally free.

possibly because interupting, disabling, and recharging all remove all stored adrenaline on a skill? and because soothing images can so easily shut down an adrenal warrior for a long period of time? just thoughts on it

Miral · Aug 10, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Your stereotypes fail.

yeh it came across a bit differently than i meant it, edited it to be more to the point. some PvPers are decent.

the_jos · Aug 10, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

The Aegis change seems like a big nerf for PVE to me. Aren't you supposed to keep the frontline out of your aggro bubble when monking?

Why should the frontline get Aegis support at all?
PvE wise, Aegis is a skill to prevent damage on the casters, not on the frontline.
You pre-prot those.

Razz Thom · Aug 10, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

wow so my PvE rit is now forced to be resto only. they have one good skill in PvE. one skill that allows them to be other than a second class monk. and you nerf the casting time on a skill that already took 4 seconds to do anything and only if they don't move. thank you for declairing my rit useless. it was more than thoughtful of you. PvP screws PvE again! woohoo!

Vermilion · Aug 10, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

for the love of god, can we have just one update for the necro blood magic skills. this is just down right sad. its bad enough that curses has the most number of skills in that attribute, and gets the most love again with the most number of skills in the upcoming gwen. not ever necro wants to run a hex bar. the same can be said with death magic skills. give the necro a reason to run something other than minions when investing in the death attribute. half the skills in death magic require the use of a corpse. enough with curses already. i say again, enough with the curses already.....

Well..yeah. Theres not much to do about that..I mean, blood can never really be effective as curses simply because the functionality of the skills don't go beyond regular damage/lifesteal. Thats it. If the numbers aren't hugeeee, then blood will continue to play second (third?) fiddle to curses/death. More skills really won't change anything because of that. All attribute lines serve a different purpose naturally, and to expand upon that would probably result in the blurring of lines between them. Hexes are boring yeah, but with the capacity to damage and shutdown melee, etc at the same time, its the obvious choice.

As far as death magic is concerned..well..its death. The only thing besides minions that that line will ever produce are gimmicks. (rotting/tainted flesh are the exceptions) Really, this has all been designed in such a way and it can't be changed significantly. Or actually, it won't be.

I suppose that was stating the obvious anyway.

Yichi · Aug 10, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

you realize you don't have to be using every single skill on your bar 100% of the time? if you rely on the whole bar for an effective build, then you're just, as our lovely andrew would put it, leaning on a crutch. and if you're relying on an elite skill to completely form your build, then its an even worse crutch; a crutch that a decent mesmer will rip out from under you so fast you'll be levitating for a second before gravity kicks in. the problem with pvp of course is that no one knows how to adapt, so instead of whine for nerfs, and make the PvEers adapt instead, when in reality the PvE were fine with the game just the way it was, and the PvPers are the big crybabies that want everything their way, and then a month later will want everything completely different again

Here is the first thought that comes to mind when reading this...

I mean seriously wtf...

Not using all 8 skills on your bar to maximize your effectiveness is really retarded, especially on certain builds that work in conjunction with all 8 of your skills. The Burning Arrow ranger comes to mind here as one of the more prominent builds that uses every skill on their bar effectively. Most builds such as the BA ranger, do rely on and are built around certain elites not as a crutch, but as the staple for the build. Lets face it, some moron running around with poison arrow, kindle arrow will never be as effective as the burning arrow ranger. Is it a viable alternative even, no it is in fact not. The nightmare weapon/chocking gas/barrage/splinter build you're commenting on is just plain redundant, not to mention plain dumb. There are far better ways to add more damage than nightmare weapon and interrupt far better than chocking gas. (not to mention that chocking gas without practiced stance is a failure in its own right) Why would u ever run an elite that removes all your preperations in a build like that is plain idiotic and shows that the objective behind the build and the purpose for the build is flawed.

And as for your silly, misguided comment that a PvP player cannot adapt is probably the most misguided thing that you have posted in recent history. If you played PvP on any level other than getting steamrolled, you would know that adapting is a constant in PvP. Adapting in tactics, builds, strategies, placement, targets, skill usage all goes on instantaneously throughout the entire match. Adapting to builds is only a minor part of the overall success of a team or build. Because a skill is ran a lot in PvP does not mean that it isn't overpowered. Most spike builds or most gimmick builds, take advantage of the fact that a skill or skill set IS overpowered. Because you don't see it being ran everywhere in PvE, does not mean that it is not overpowered and needs to be addressed. The problem is that you're relating PvP builds too is the constant evolution of PvE, thus why 90% of the information that you are trying to give is misguided when geared towards a PvP related response and honestly just makes people laugh. Monsters in PvE will always have the same skill bar, same usage of skills, same timing, same placement, same armor, same defeciencies, same advantages all the time. In a competitive environment such as HA or GvG, these will always change. No team (outside of being in the automated tournaments) can have any idea of exactically what map they will come across. No team can be certian as to which team they will get to fight next. (outside of at's) No team can be 100% for sure what build they are comming across, nor the players playing the build. So therefore not knowing the build, conditions, map choice, map effects, etc. why would you EVER limit your build to only fight one certian type of build, and leave your entire team virtually useless and vulnerable against every other build that you come across. When there is a build out there that will force teams to do this, that build is overpowered, whether you agree with it or not. Nothing should force any player to limit themselves to running in a situation like that and be allowed to go unchecked as it was.

It would seem that from the bitching and whining thats going on in this thread and in others that the PvE community is having far more of a problem adapting than the PvP community is having.....

SpeedyKQ · Aug 10, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Why should the frontline get Aegis support at all?

Why shouldn't they? It makes a big difference, unless they're running pure tanking builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

PvE wise, Aegis is a skill to prevent damage on the casters, not on the frontline.

Looks like it is now. I don't know, I'll have to playtest. I'll try standing a bit closer to the front, I'll try saving Aegis for only protecting the casters, see what works. But before, it was a very effective way of protecting everyone.

Yichi · Aug 10, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ

Why shouldn't they? It makes a big difference, unless they're running pure tanking builds.

What else is ran in pve??? (ok that was sarcasm)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ

Looks like it is now. I don't know, I'll have to playtest. I'll try standing a bit closer to the front, I'll try saving Aegis for only protecting the casters, see what works. But before, it was a very effective way of protecting everyone.

Like all prots, positioning on a monk is key to using them effectively. Aegis got a buff from this update more than it got nerfed for main party monks. Aegis was only an effective way for protting against certain types of damage and was still easily removed. As far as using a skill to proctect casters, prot spirit, spirit bond, or shield of absorbtion are far better choices for single targets. Aegis really gained a huge benefit from being able to run it on off party characters that weren't primary monks and took this skill as a utility, which is what ANET wanted to try to shift away from. And not to forget the pve only seed of life. This skill can be amazing when used effectively.

Miral · Aug 10, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

wall of text

I've actually played PvP a fair bit. its kinda fun sometimes, but half of it is people using the flavors of the month, and the other half is people who will accuse you of being lame and no skill no matter what you're running when you beat them. I I play pvp a good bit, but i don't like it. not liking something doesn't mean i don't know how to play it, and liking something doesn't mean you're automatically the end all of it either. This is something that a lot of people on this forum need to keep in mind. just because I classify myself as a PvE player and another person classifies themselves as a PvP player, doesn't mean they're any better at PvP than I am; it just means they enjoy that aspect more. I used to PvP and PvE about the same amount in each, but moved away from PvP because of the crappy people you're forced to interact with.

Now that I've got that point across... You can take 64 skills into a pvp team. And most counters consist of no more than 3 skills, most being 1 or 2. theres maybe what, two "gimmick builds" running at a time at the most? You see where I'm going?

The problem is people tend to want to see lots of damage numbers. And thats cool and all, look I'm big and strong. But then when something comes that deviates from the norm of tank tank nuke nuke nuke hex prot heal, its considered overpowered, because hey, suddenly my attack isn't doing anything, and the enemy can still hit me, and thats not fair right? wow they must be lame no skill people to come up with a build like that. well, theres couple skills i could take that would completely shut them down... but no, my build relies on all 8 skills, and so does the rest of my team's builds. how can we fix this... well, we could try playing that build ourselves.... no, no, then we'd be hypocrites for calling them lame... I know.... let's ask izzy to nerf them! we can make a few undercover teams to make it look like its a bigger problem than it really is, and then we can just lose a few matches to them while izzy watches.... that'll prove its overpowered right? because our uberleet selves can't kill it? i mean we're so uberleet we're probably overpowered too, but SHHH. Oh wait... look... I found an easy way to stop them without changing my build.... oh well, lets go ahead and push for the nerf anyway, because i don't think thats how the game should be played, and obviously I know more than everyone else. What they don't like being nerfed? Fine, lets suggest that their other skills get nerfed too!

Tylos Angelheart · Aug 10, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

ok ok Firstly id like to point out RITUALISTS CANT REALLY MANAGE EXHAUSTION. i mean average energy is about 40 - 45 lose exhaustion lowers that to what 30?

this also dont really make any sense whatsoever, Elementalists i can understand having exhaustion Meteor Shower for example.... If you imagine summoning all that death then thats gonna leave you drowsy gonna be a bit of a strain on the whole mentality you see what im saying?

A ritualist can summon Pain, Bloodsong etc with no penalty... are these not spirits? why would a spirit with a different attack be that much of a strain on their overall willpower? yeah maybe itd requre more concentration (represented by the original 25 energy cost) but it wouldnt leave you tired as this is the exact same procedure as summoning any other spirit.

Weilders Strike... again why? the only characters worth using this on are combay characters (Rangers, Warriors etc) makes no sense that this is now restricted only to ritualist use due to the exhaustion... also why would this exhaust you this surely is less effort that summoning the dead damnit! no point really having weapon skills on rits and thus making this skill pretty pointless why not just remove it??

and lastly

AEGIS IS AN ENCHANTMENT NOT A SHOUT WHY THE HELL IS IT NOW EARSHOT??? AND IF THIS IS THE CASE MAKE THE CASTING TIME ZERO AND MAKE IT A DAMN SHOUT STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH US!!!

thats all i have to say

Yichi · Aug 10, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

I've actually played PvP a fair bit. its kinda fun sometimes, but half of it is people using the flavors of the month, and the other half is people who will accuse you of being lame and no skill no matter what you're running when you beat them.

Ok this tells me that you haven't PvP'd that often because you have this entire statistic wrong. This also tells me with the end of your comment that you participated in said FOTM builds, otherwise the being lame and no skill comment would never have come across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

I play pvp a good bit, but i don't like it. not liking something doesn't mean i don't know how to play it, and liking something doesn't mean you're automatically the end all of it either. This is something that a lot of people on this forum need to keep in mind. just because I classify myself as a PvE player and another person classifies themselves as a PvP player, doesn't mean they're any better at PvP than I am; it just means they enjoy that aspect more. I used to PvP and PvE about the same amount in each, but moved away from PvP because of the crappy people you're forced to interact with.

You missed the point so ill simplify it for you, Because someone is a primary PvP player vs a PvE player, they will have a better understanding and knowledge in 95% of the cases where a pvp vs pve argument is going to be brought up because of the fact that thats the area of the game in which they spend the majority of their time. While you may enjoy PvP and might participate in it, I can gaurentee you that there are people that play PvP that are better than you are at it because its what they do, so no your argument holds no real validity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

Now that I've got that point across... You can take 64 skills into a pvp team. And most counters consist of no more than 3 skills, most being 1 or 2. theres maybe what, two "gimmick builds" running at a time at the most? You see where I'm going?

really? You obviously havent PvP'd in the last year, because most of the gimmicks running around such as rit spike, zergway, thumpway all require more than 1-2 skills to shut it down to the point where the build becomes pointless. In most cases it requires 1-2 characters to effectively shut down the build, not 1-2 skills to counter it. This statement alone tells me that you haven't been in the past and current metagame for a while, otherwise you would know that the variety of builds and the different gimmicks that are in PvP are ran across quite often as well as having other builds thrown at you that youre not going to be prepared for. Setting up to deal with the off chance of running into a build and limiting yourself to every other build you should run across takes this game from skill and time spent in PvP, to basically rock paper scissors matchups. In a true PvP balance, no one build should be able to completely devistate 90% of whatever it comes across. When this happens you get teams doing nothing but gearing to beat said build, so people that run said build run say thumpway because the counterbuild to ritspike gets smashed under heavy pressure. so ok now we run back to ritspike because it countered thumpway on said map... again youre going into rock paper scissors mentality of gaming. The playerskill and strategies using a build should always outperform the build itself, and sadly in almost all gimmicks it doesnt, which is why also 90% of the people that run them do, is because they look for the quick effective easy way while not really gaining any knowledge or true gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

The problem is people tend to want to see lots of damage numbers. And thats cool and all, look I'm big and strong. But then when something comes that deviates from the norm of tank tank nuke nuke nuke hex prot heal, its considered overpowered, because hey, suddenly my attack isn't doing anything, and the enemy can still hit me, and thats not fair right? wow they must be lame no skill people to come up with a build like that. well, theres couple skills i could take that would completely shut them down... but no, my build relies on all 8 skills, and so does the rest of my team's builds. how can we fix this... well, we could try playing that build ourselves.... no, no, then we'd be hypocrites for calling them lame... I know.... let's ask izzy to nerf them! we can make a few undercover teams to make it look like its a bigger problem than it really is, and then we can just lose a few matches to them while izzy watches.... that'll prove its overpowered right? because our uberleet selves can't kill it? i mean we're so uberleet we're probably overpowered too, but SHHH. Oh wait... look... I found an easy way to stop them without changing my build.... oh well, lets go ahead and push for the nerf anyway, because i don't think thats how the game should be played, and obviously I know more than everyone else. What they don't like being nerfed? Fine, lets suggest that their other skills get nerfed too!

Again you're comparing a PvE team build to a PvP situation so your entire argument holds no validity as a PvE build will always be subpar in a PvP situation. You simply cannot compare the builds and playstyles from PvE and PvP in the same situations and circumstances because it will not work. And the whole "lets make a bunch of undercover teams" argument holds absolutely 0 credibility in any argument or discussion and clearly shows that you dont have the correct knowledge about the PvP community and metagame to even remotely contribute useful information towards this discussion. Please honestly go into PvP and learn what youre talking about and actually come back with useful informaton so we can have a successful discussion.

Feanixxx · Aug 10, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Regarding the changes to 'Favor':

If GW is localised for Europe, why isn't Favour spelt correctly and not Americanised?

Miral · Aug 10, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

one question thats been asked countless times and never gets a proper response, that could make the entire debate go away and leave pvp free teritory for nerfs without a single pve complaint: why the hell don't they separate pvp and pve functionality?? instead of nerfing skills in both games that aren't overpowered, just nerf it in pvp where it is only used in an overpowered build, and leave it the fudgepack alone in pve! the two parts of the game function completely differently, that is a point no one with half a brain will argue. why have the same player changes in both then? what to pvp is fixing an overpowered build, is making a balanced skill useless in pve. STOP.

Yichi · Aug 10, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Because that would require them reworking the entire game up to this point to be able to seperate Pve and PvP and anet isn't going to invest this amount of time and resources into a game they are already planning to replace with GW2. This is pretty plain and obvious and has been said 038746096450928654 times and pointed out by 9826450926450297834673265065404365 people.

Feanixxx · Aug 10, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

pointed out by 9826450926450297834673265065404365 people.

Wow, pity GW gets no monthly subscription fees from them, I'd buy their shares tomorrow

Sab · Aug 10, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Yes, it's a lot easier to let PvErs realise that skill balances don't make or break PvE.

Yichi · Aug 10, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanixxx

Wow, pity GW gets no monthly subscription fees from them, I'd buy their shares tomorrow

ok so i might have exaggerated by 10 or 20 people

Age · Aug 10, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Why should the frontline get Aegis support at all?
PvE wise, Aegis is a skill to prevent damage on the casters, not on the frontline.
You pre-prot those.

I am glad someone knows what I ma talking about no the frontline doesn't need it.The only others are those on the side of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted byTylos Angelheart
AEGIS IS AN ENCHANTMENT NOT A SHOUT WHY THE HELL IS IT NOW EARSHOT??? AND IF THIS IS THE CASE MAKE THE CASTING TIME ZERO AND MAKE IT A DAMN SHOUT STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH US!!!

That would be shields up and yes funny as Monks don't have shouts.It is going ot be very intersting to see how this plays out gvG as most now will have to stay with the flag runner and no more split teams.It use to work in PvE to but not anymore.I wouldn't a refund as paid for it.

Riotgear · Aug 10, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tylos Angelheart

ok ok Firstly id like to point out RITUALISTS CANT REALLY MANAGE EXHAUSTION. i mean average energy is about 40 - 45 lose exhaustion lowers that to what 30?

Considering Ritualist spells are mostly 5-10 to begin with, this isn't exactly much of a problem. Exhaustion does not come off the BOTTOM of your energy pool, if you have 45 and you spend 10 and get exhausted, you have 35 left to spend just like you would have before. The only difference is how fast you can dump energy from a full bar.

Quote:

A ritualist can summon Pain, Bloodsong etc with no penalty... are these not spirits? why would a spirit with a different attack be that much of a strain on their overall willpower?

Because Pain and Bloodsong don't strip enchantments, knock you down, or interrupt you. Why they put it on Anguish, I have no idea.

Quote:

Weilders Strike... again why? the only characters worth using this on are combay characters (Rangers, Warriors etc)

.... what?

Cast Vital Weapon on yourself, cast Wielder's Strike. You thought rangers and warriors were casting this shit?

Quote:

AEGIS IS AN ENCHANTMENT NOT A SHOUT WHY THE HELL IS IT NOW EARSHOT??? AND IF THIS IS THE CASE MAKE THE CASTING TIME ZERO AND MAKE IT A DAMN SHOUT STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH US!!!

For the same reason Guardian is cast from earshot range.

Quote:

possibly because interupting, disabling, and recharging all remove all stored adrenaline on a skill? and because soothing images can so easily shut down an adrenal warrior for a long period of time? just thoughts on it

Interrupting causes reuse drawbacks on any skill. Recharge increases affect adrenaline skills just as heavily as anything else. Disables are uncommon. Soothing Images? Pre-veil and remove it. If you're going up against Iboga you should be packing hex stack removal anyway.

By the way, the overall DPS of Spirit Burn and Spirit Rift has been increased, which is what you really want in PvE anyway. Go kill stuff with it.