Curse

wetsparks · Jun 19, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

I realise that GW is a game and not a job, but the mind set is the same. You want something you got to put in the time. Some people didnt put in the time and want these skills, others put in the time but wanted fake gold instead of a title and they are mad and then there are others who decided they wanted the title or a town and they still have to earn more faction to get the skills, but theres is a bit stronger.
With the most recent update anyways...

Quote:

Using the "Raise Alliance reputation" option with the Kurzick/Luxon faction reward NPCs now gives 10,000 points toward the corresponding title track. The cost is still 5,000 faction points, and the reputation gained by the alliance is still 5,000.

And also the double faction to your title when you get the skills, it is very easy to get to rank 1 to get the skills and to get them stronger.

kevinqx · Jun 19, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

What I am hearing from a lot you is that you don't like it that someone who is willing to put in the work is getting rewarded when you don't want to put in the work and still want the reward. Frankly I hope none of you are over 10 years old because if that is your attitude and you have a real job it would be awful to be your boss.
"Boss, John Doe got a raise. Why didn't I get one?"
"Well Mr. Smith, John actually worked hard and all you did was play solitaire."
"That is so not fair! Either I get a raise or I quit!"
"Well, goodbye."

Guild Wars is designed to be fun, not designed to be work. People complaining about what Arena.net has implemented are complaining because it doesn't make the game fun, it makes it work. Originally the only things which were accomplished by grinding were purely cosmetic. This is no longer the case. The people who are against the changes aren't against them out of laziness as in your workplace analogy. They are against them because one of Guild Wars' main selling points was a lack of a grind, which is a philosophy they seemed to have changed their mind on.

I'm not sure how I feel about the changes, perhaps the faction-skills simply aren't that big a deal. I'll think about it some more. However, your post seems to indicate a lack of understanding of the points being made in this discussion.

darktyco · Jun 19, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

I realise that GW is a game and not a job, but the mind set is the same. You want something you got to put in the time. Some people didnt put in the time and want these skills, others put in the time but wanted fake gold instead of a title and they are mad and then there are others who decided they wanted the title or a town and they still have to earn more faction to get the skills, but theres is a bit stronger.
With the most recent update anyways...And also the double faction to your title when you get the skills, it is very easy to get to rank 1 to get the skills and to get them stronger.

You sound like you came straight out of WoW. GW has never been about "putting in the time" to get your skills. You "put in your time" to get your vanity weapon skins and FoW armor skins, but never for weapons that do more damage, armor that protects better, or skills. Ever. There are a multitude of other online games that require a grind obtain anything, but this has not been one of them, until now.

Antheus · Jun 19, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

What I am hearing from a lot you is that you don't like it that someone who is willing to put in the work is getting rewarded when you don't want to put in the work and still want the reward. Frankly I hope none of you are over 10 years old because if that is your attitude and you have a real job it would be awful to be your boss.
"Boss, John Doe got a raise. Why didn't I get one?"
"Well Mr. Smith, John actually worked hard and all you did was play solitaire."
"That is so not fair! Either I get a raise or I quit!"
"Well, goodbye."

When Anet pays me $95,000 a year I'll be happy. And if they promise me a 20% raise I'll max out the titles by "working hard".

And another thing. People don't get raise for working hard. They get raise for working "smart".

Unless you work at an assembly line, doing the same thing for 8 hours every day, for years, and get that miniscule 2% seniority raise, which becomes pointless once you are handicapped and forced into retirement at 33.

But the aproach that MMOs use to promote "hard work" is exactly the type of work that will not get your a raise. Unless you consider flipping burgers a career, and moving on to salads a promotion.

In real world, "exploiters" and "eBayers" are the only ones who get ahead.

Steps_Descending · Jun 19, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

-The hardcore pvp crowd is loked in Starcraft and Countersrike for all eternity.
-Pure PvP is extremely elitist and that inevitably turns people off.
-Not all players are content to use the current mandatory overpowered build of choise and nothing else. Every single game.

Bottomline: The pvp-centric gameplay of GW is evolving towards pve because the pvp playerbase is too small.

I liked that quote... Sweet irony here.

wetsparks · Jun 19, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinqx

Guild Wars is designed to be fun, not designed to be work. People complaining about what Arena.net has implemented are complaining because it doesn't make the game fun, it makes it work. Originally the only things which were accomplished by grinding were purely cosmetic. This is no longer the case. The people who are against the changes aren't against them out of laziness as in your workplace analogy. They are against them because one of Guild Wars' main selling points was a lack of a grind, which is a philosophy they seemed to have changed their mind on.

There still is that philosophy. Some one can put in 5000 hours on their warrior and I can make one and spend 20 hours with him and he will be just as strong as the person's who spent 5000 hours with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

You sound like you came straight out of WoW. GW has never been about "putting in the time" to get your skills. You "put in your time" to get your vanity weapon skins and FoW armor skins, but never for weapons that do more damage, armor that protects better, or skills. Ever. There are a multitude of other online games that require a grind obtain anything, but this has not been one of them, until now.

With todays update you can spend five hours fff and have rank one and have access to one of the skills. The skills are just slightly better than what you can buy at the skill trader anyways unless you get them to the very high ranks. Also, I have never played WoW but I have spent five years of my life on Diablo II. And in GW you have nothing to distinguish yourself from someone else because everyone gets max armor and max weapons from traders half way through the game. So what I have a problem with is all the people who come off as saying that one of the few ways of distinguishing yourself from others are these titles yet people seem to be saying we want the skills, dont want to do anything to get them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

When Anet pays me $95,000 a year I'll be happy. And if they promise me a 20% raise I'll max out the titles by "working hard".

And another thing. People don't get raise for working hard. They get raise for working "smart".

Unless you work at an assembly line, doing the same thing for 8 hours every day, for years, and get that miniscule 2% seniority raise, which becomes pointless once you are handicapped and forced into retirement at 33.

But the aproach that MMOs use to promote "hard work" is exactly the type of work that will not get your a raise. Unless you consider flipping burgers a career, and moving on to salads a promotion.

In real world, "exploiters" and "eBayers" are the only ones who get ahead.

Unfortunately people do make careers by working in a McDonalds or Burger King or Walmart. They are crappy places to work and the people who work there do have to work hard. If you had ever worked at some place like that you would know. And there is a difference between working hard in real life and working hard in a game. To max some titles you do have to dedicate yourself and work at it. But all I see in this thread and others are people coming off as they want everything handed to them instead of trying to accomplish it. I won't comment on the salary thing as you are obviously trying to brag to people who probably will never see you in real life or in game and could careless about your career as long as you do your job to beat the mission or win your PVP match.

EternalTempest · Jun 19, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

@OP - Every time I hear the word "grind" and GW I disagree.

When you compare "GW" grind to other MMO's, I played FFXI for 2 years... let me tell you about "grind there".. GW grinding is nothing.

GW still allows me casual play. Playing a few hours a day within a week or two to get enough points to unlock the ability to buy the lux/kuz does not seem that much to me at all. Once that's done, I think I can get 1 skill per day with an hour or two of doing faction stuff.

I personally think Fort Aspen is rather fun and earns me nice bath-faction / lux/kuz faction points quickly imho.

Amy Awien · Jun 19, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

What I am hearing from a lot you is that you don't like it that someone who is willing to put in the work is getting rewarded when you don't want to put in the work and still want the reward. Frankly I hope none of you are over 10 years old because if that is your attitude and you have a real job it would be awful to be your boss.

Once you grow up and have to work for your money, keep your house tidy and prepare your own dinner and that of your family, you'll find that you don't have all that much time left to grind countless hours in some game. Maybe you'll discover that you'd rather play games for entertainment rather then as a substitute for real life accomplishments and fulfillments.

EternalTempes, you need 100k faction, at 400 per quest you are looking at repeating a quest 250 times. That is grind. And even if you manage to repeat it ten times per hour it will take 25 hours.

Edit: ok, oh it's 50k and 125 times the same quest ... it's still grinding.

Melody Cross · Jun 19, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Rewards require effort. Effort=work. You put in effort to get something you want. if you want something badly enough, you put in extra effort for it.

I guess the question is: is the effort required for Factions skills worth the reward? I...don't think so at this time. You're better off getting your PvE Sunspear title maxed and use those skills. Its less effort for greater rewards

I am glad that they are doing something with the friends titles though. I started PvP in AB and it brings back a memories to think that those titles now can serve a purpose. But...the casual gamer will likely never attain them, or will not attain a high enough title to use the skills to their greatest effect. Thats kinda sad tbh. Its one thing to deny them some nice looking greens or gold weapons or fancy armor skins if they haven't the time to play for long hours. Its another to deny them builds because they don't have the skills needed to run them or can't get them maxed out enough to use them well.

Grind was always before, a cosmetic thing. This time, it will have an actual impact on performance. Its a first for GW (barring a few, tiny things like req 7 shields and stuff like that) and I honestly don't like it. It shows a change in how Anet is thinking about its customers. They are catering more to players who want grind in their game. This is a tangible reward for grinding, not a cosmetic one.

...I didn't like that in my other MMOs. Thats why i bought, played and continue to play GW. Sure, I grind a lot to build up my main character and make my heroes better. but It was always my choice to grind. What if a combo comes out with the factions skills that sets someone above my little r2-3 friend of the luxons? Will I be penalized because I played different aspects of the game instead of ABing all my time away?

In a game that is built so heavily around the skills (and skill) you bring to a team, excessive grinding for max attribute is...bad. It makes you wonder: whats next? I'm not Chicken little and i don't think the sky is going to fall on Tyria any time soon, but it does make me worry what the next title will be to get a tangible buff instead of a cosmetic one. And--unless you've maxed out all your title tracks--you might want to wonder 9and even worry a little) too.

Nope. I don't like the turn I see Anet may be taking with these friends skills after all. Its scarry that I'll have to spend all my time farming something I hate to do instead of playing what i want to play and being on equal (equipment wise) footing with any other player.

Sorry if I upset people, but thats what I think.

GGs

Gli · Jun 19, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is the 'been there, done that, not doing it again' issue. I already DID grind for faction, a year ago. Every point I got went into materials, enough to buy two armors. I was bored sick of it after that, and don't intend to ever do it again.

Gaining sunspear ranks can be done in what, 85% of all Elona maps? As a side effect of doing whatever it is you're doing. Gaining allegiance can only be done in a terribly small number of maps doing the same damn things over and over and over and over and over and over. And over. And - frigging - over.

Been there, done that, not doing it again. It got stale a year ago and it's not gotten any fresher.

Cirian · Jun 19, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Gaining allegiance has quite a few options - regular PvE zones, challange missions, Fort Aspenwood and Alliance Battles, plus you can do it over multiple toons like I said before. Gaining rank 1 is easy - you don't have to rush it, y'know... take your time and smell the roses.

roalgumo7 · Jun 19, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

I don't agree on the no lvl cap, I could go with a higher lvl cap tough.
I do agree with you on that luxon/kurzick title, it's a title for insane ppl that have no life pretty much.

Amy Awien · Jun 19, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Gaining allegiance has quite a few options - regular PvE zones, challange missions, Fort Aspenwood and Alliance Battles, plus you can do it over multiple toons like I said before. Gaining rank 1 is easy - you don't have to rush it, y'know... take your time and smell the roses.

A few times a week I go to the Battle Isles and beat up a few NPC's for a few k of balthazar's faction. Essentially it is, what, 5-10 minutes of work to unlock a skill for my heroes and PvP. And I get to try out some new hero builds. That is the kind of no-rush getting there slowly grind you seem to be talking about. But when I compare that to the dozens of hours of grinding for a single PvE-only skill I think I know which is the more rewarding 'grind'. Too bad about the work ANet put into these skills.

Div · Jun 19, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

This game really doesn't require the grind. You can do just as fine without the Luxon/Kurzick skills, and sunspear skills even at rank 7ish is good enough to be used compared to other skills.

BDZeres · Jun 19, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Rewards require effort. Effort=work. You put in effort to get something you want. if you want something badly enough, you put in extra effort for it.

In a game that is built so heavily around the skills (and skill) you bring to a team, excessive grinding for max attribute is...bad. It makes you wonder: whats next? I'm not Chicken little and i don't think the sky is going to fall on Tyria any time soon, but it does make me worry what the next title will be to get a tangible buff instead of a cosmetic one. And--unless you've maxed out all your title tracks--you might want to wonder 9and even worry a little) too.

Nope. I don't like the turn I see Anet may be taking with these friends skills after all. Its scarry that I'll have to spend all my time farming something I hate to do instead of playing what i want to play and being on equal (equipment wise) footing with any other player.

GGs

Although I am now primarily a PvP player, I always enjoy a little mindless PvE now and again (pretty yellow numbers + things going boom = yay) IMO the "friend" skills are cool, but not at all game-breaking. Normal mode does not require them and guild / alliance groups will never turn me down because I don't have "friend of x"/ SS /LB maxed out - they know I'm a good player and that IMO goes much further than any title. As for pugs, personally I wouldn't waste my time with someone who insists on a skill that requires me to have maxed some lame title from factions :P .

wetsparks · Jun 19, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Once you grow up and have to work for your money, keep your house tidy and prepare your own dinner and that of your family, you'll find that you don't have all that much time left to grind countless hours in some game. Maybe you'll discover that you'd rather play games for entertainment rather then as a substitute for real life accomplishments and fulfillments.

EternalTempes, you need 100k faction, at 400 per quest you are looking at repeating a quest 250 times. That is grind. And even if you manage to repeat it ten times per hour it will take 25 hours.

Edit: ok, oh it's 50k and 125 times the same quest ... it's still grinding.

I do work, I do work around the house. And for some reason I can find 5 hours it takes to get to rank one. Nobody said that you had to do it all at once. Hell, you could fff for a half hour a night and have rank one and able to get the skill you want in 10 days. Personally I find AB fun and the fact that I get some nifty little title and now some skills to go along with it keep me doing AB instead of farming with my 55 trying to get a pile of virtual gold.

bilateralrope · Jun 19, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

This game really doesn't require the grind. You can do just as fine without the Luxon/Kurzick skills, and sunspear skills even at rank 7ish is good enough to be used compared to other skills.

Except that we did pay the same as other people for guild wars. But because we don't enjoy the repetitive actions required to get those skills, we don't get them. But some of the skills look like they might make the game more enjoyable, which is the point of gaming.

So for guild wars, how does forcing players to do the same thing they hate over and over make any sense ?

Gli · Jun 19, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

What I am hearing from a lot you is that you don't like it that someone who is willing to put in the work is getting rewarded when you don't want to put in the work and still want the reward. Frankly I hope none of you are over 10 years old because if that is your attitude and you have a real job it would be awful to be your boss.
"Boss, John Doe got a raise. Why didn't I get one?"
"Well Mr. Smith, John actually worked hard and all you did was play solitaire."
"That is so not fair! Either I get a raise or I quit!"
"Well, goodbye."

A bit late, but here's a more fitting version:

"Boss, John Doe got a Christmas bonus. Why didn't I get one?"

"Well Mr. Smith, I've been keeping tabs on how you boys spend your paychecks. John donated all disposable income to Scientology, whereas you just bought some clothes."

"Haha, that's so funny... wait a minute, you're serious, aren't you?"

"Yes Mr. Smith, I'm perfectly serious."

"I see..."

"Would you like to take one of our free personality tests?"

darktyco · Jun 19, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

I do work, I do work around the house. And for some reason I can find 5 hours it takes to get to rank one. Nobody said that you had to do it all at once. Hell, you could fff for a half hour a night and have rank one and able to get the skill you want in 10 days. Personally I find AB fun and the fact that I get some nifty little title and now some skills to go along with it keep me doing AB instead of farming with my 55 trying to get a pile of virtual gold.

How does doing work around the house compare to what Amy Awien was saying? I think she meant something more like working 9 hour days, commuting, plus handling all the errands and chores that occur daily (which easily stack up twice high when kids are involved.)

Back to the discussion, I think you are missing the entire point here. The problem is that instead of playing the game and having fun for X number of days you have grind and work for X number of days to achieve the lowest level of the Luxon/Kurzick skills. It doesn't particularly matter how palatable you might find the grind to be, it is still a grind.

Amy Awien · Jun 19, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

And for some reason I can find 5 hours it takes to get to rank one.

There is no way you'll get even just 50k in 5 hours or 300 minutes. You'd have about 2 minutes per quest (400 points each). Not to mention that you'd need half a dozen other players willing to repeat the same mindnumbing tasks over and over again.

Highly unrealistic.

Quote:

Nobody said that you had to do it all at once. Hell, you could fff for a half hour a night and have rank one and able to get the skill you want in 10 days.

The problem isn't the time, but repeating the same dull task again and again and again and again. That is the definition of grinding.

Then there is the problem of getting half a dozen other players to go online and grind with you half an hour per day for the next two days. I'd think that is unrealistic.

Quote:

Personally I find AB fun and the fact that I get some nifty little title and now some skills to go along with it keep me doing AB instead of farming with my 55 trying to get a pile of virtual gold.

I see, to you the game consist either of grinding for gold or grinding for faction?

But now we've come to the root, you play a different game. It's not as much that other people can't work and they'll become the doom of their employers, it's you who happens to enjoy the kind of grind that is required to obtain these titles.