Curse

Antithesis · Aug 14, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

1) You don't need to launch GW from inside of other app to access its textures.
2) Running inside VirtualPC or VMware can be detected. (btw, some MS developers even have sense of humor. Running PPC emulator inside VirtualPC/VMware gives an error something like: "Can't launch emulator inside emulator. You just had to try didn't you?")

But that's Microsoft's emulator detecting a PPC emulator inside a Microsoft-emulated OS. Can GW do the same?

lyra_song · Aug 14, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Hence the TexMod theories - making an existing item that has existing functionality in the game appear in the UI when it otherwise should not be seen in Pre.

I'm not making this up and the theories are not mine, so i can neither be credited nor damned for expressing the "possibility" that TexMod or allowing GW.exe to be launched through a third-party application is to blame.

Its pure speculation. Copping out the "its not my theory, so you cant blame me" doesnt help the fact that youre still spreading bogus info.

Unless its THERE, Texmod cant do anything. Texmod cannot MOVE anything in the game. It cant create buttons. It can only change TEXTURES. It doesnt change the functionality of anything.

Even if the button does exist, Texmod wouldnt be able to make it appear since Texmod doesnt touch the client or the data going to Anet at all.

Quote:

Anet is allowing and in the case of TexMod, encouraging it. If a link can be established between a third-party app, not necessarily TexMod, interacting with and altering in-game behaviour, which does *appear* to be the case, then Anet needs to revise the whole third-party app launching GW thing.

Virtual PC and VMware should be allowed and i'm guessing can not be detected as the operating system itself is simply running inside the software emulator. Therefore unless GW can detect OS emulation, can not be bundled in with the rest of the third-party apps.

No it does not appear to be the case. We have no information as to how Mallyx got to pre-searing.

All that appears is some people are getting to presearing with non-presearing items.

And since its been DONE BEFORE, i think thats a more plausible scenario than anything else.

bobrath · Aug 14, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Alright couple points:

1) Texmod only allows you to change the skin applied to objects. It cannot apply a "clickable" skin. So if there were truly an invisible or hidden (by skin only) button on the screen and a change to the skin made it visible... it would have been clickable the entire time. A button in the UI is clickable no matter what color you skin it. So lets please let go of Texmod as the path for this possible exploit.

2) I don't think that the world of hackers out there were leaving GW alone until suddenly it was ok to use Texmod. They'll have been trying to hack and get into GW since release. Lets not see a connection where there may not be one.

3) The recent dupe hack was discovered at about the same time as this appearance of mallyx in pre. By some accounts the dupe exploit has been possible for quite a while. What changed? Someone either got greedy OR gave the information out to a greedy person. Its also possible that the same oops happened with information on access to pre. There may not be any tie between these two exploits other then information got out beyond some small smart group to the world of overly greedy i-net kiddies and that brought both to light.

lyra_song · Aug 14, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quru

(I have bad english, I know. But try to understand this. It is worth of it I think.)

It is possible.

It's possible to get pre-searing to Guild Hall. If server do checks character-info when trying to get GH, you just have to do little more hacking. You have to know, what client sends to server when doing anything at game. It is easy to get that info with some programs, or making program yourself. Then you have to make program, that simulates client. It sends character-info to server and that you want to transfer char to GH. If checks where char is, then you have to make program sending modded info. Char is in post-ascalon (example), other char-infos are right, then it moves char GH. Log onto game, go to ur char, take items from GH storage. Log out, open program u made, send some info to server: "[Chars name] travels to pre-ascalon from [some place]." That easy is this.

You are proposing spoofing the client to tell the server that your character travelled to GH from Pre.

Even if you could get the exact data needed, and simulate it, how would you get the server to coperate with a non-official client? It would instantly try to patch your client to repair it.

Even then, who's to say theres not a server side check that sees if your character is even allowed to enter GH (triggered by unlocking Ascalon for the first time).

Antithesis · Aug 14, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

"Private and illegal servers is an interesting prospect, i'm sure Anet would like to hear more from you on the subject"

Man.

They already know.

In fact apparentally they even had lunch with the developer of the one going on right now so yeah...

But you seem to not understand how the game works at all. Let alone TexMod. I can take the texture for the Inventory in the menu button and add it to my party window but it doesnt make it work.

You have to add functionality to it, which TexMod can't do. In order to add functionality you have to hack the .dat file which IS against the EULA.

Nothing happens if I add the Guild Hall button btw, I actually just tried. It's just like anything TexMod does, it changes the looks of things but it doesnt actually make that stuff happen. Just cause my starter sword looks like an IDS doesnt mean its an IDS just like just cause I have a Guild Hall button in my G window doesnt mean its actually there.

I don't have an issue with TexMod, the issue is with any third-party application interacting with GW.exe or GW.dat. As i said, the TexMod theory isn't mine, i'm just putting it out there as a *potential* problem - it may be interacting with existing code on the server to enable the GH jump.

I completely understand that simply showing a graphic will not make it function, but don't discount the possibility that smarter people than you or i have worked out how to use TexMod for malicious intent by allowing a UI object that under normal circumstances can not be seen in Pre to interact with a hack.

There's little difference to hacking and modding to a hacker...the simple fact that TexMod *may* enable a hack by accessing / editing / deleting / inserting files in GW.dat or make calls to external scripts and *could* be enabled as a result is enough to can TexMod if a link can be proven. This is pure speculation and i have no facts to back any of it up, so consider it BS unless proven otherwise. I'm happy to look the fool and put it out there than do nothing and sit idly by. I'm also happy to have any and all of my posts deleted by a mod if i'm doing nothing but scare-mongering or stirring the pot.

Until someone from Anet can categorically and emphatically denounce TexMod as the source of a potential hack, be it the ability to browse the GW.dat file or render alternate textures externally, then questions will continue to be asked about the sense of allowing GW mods, as benign as texture modification may be. If that happens, it'll give me a greater sense of relief than embarrassment and i'll shut my big fat mouth from here on in.

In a nutshell I'd just like to see better protection on GW.exe to detect modification to the file or prevent it from being launched from another application. You can edit GW.exe to enable multiple copies of GW to run on a single PC which is handy for running multiple accounts, and GW does not require registry files to run, so all things considered it's pretty piss-poor client-side protection that enables hacks like this to be discovered and bots to run undetected. Surely Anet should be able to detect a hacked or third-party launched GW.exe - it can detect an out-of-date GW.exe fileversion, so why not an invalid or altered one when a server-side check is made prior to launch?

lyra_song · Aug 14, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Antithesis...you obviously fail to understand Anet's stance on the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily Diehl

In case anyone was concerned about this reply, keep in mind that alterations that people make to their own .dat files will not affect the play experience of others. All of that important data is stored server side, so any changes that would be able to be made are purely cosmetic. For instance, if someone re-textures their sword to look like a gigantic pickle, they will be the only one to see this change. You won't start seeing people wielding pickle swords running around in random arena any time soon

Also keep in mind that we are always interested to see what stuff you guys come up with. If you do something exceptionally cool that you feel would really benefit the community as a whole, don't be afraid to let us know about it."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

Honestly, though, as previously stated, it is unlikely that we would actively pursue or action those who use such programs in a positive manner, that is, those whose only interest is creating benign mods of our games.

Meanwhile, things like macro botting scripts are still a bannable offense. When they okay-ed texmod, botting didnt become ok.

WarKaster · Aug 14, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

im surprised arcanemacabre's idea of a macro hasn't been discussed more in depth. I don't know much about modding anything but could something like that be set up with out hacking the exe?

1 up and 2 down · Aug 14, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Ok I am not bothering to read through all the posts but the way someone got this mini was from the guildhall glitch. You know, the one that happened like a year ago. This has been discussed to death on presearing.com, what we have managed to come up with is that people left characters from presear in the guildhall. So now people are bringing post items into pre.

natuxatu · Aug 14, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Yeah I don't like mods... not for any games unless they were optional add ons created by they game makers in this case (a.net.)

Antithesis · Aug 14, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Antithesis...you obviously fail to understand Anet's stance on the issue.

I've read the posts and i do understand the stance. It's naive to think that modifications will be limited to benign activities and that creates a grey area about what can and can't be edited, and the can of worms that enabling modding opens.

I do not wish to continue highjacking the thread, i just want better protection from this sort of exploit and for Anet to prevent third-party applications from launching or altering the GW.exe file, or intercepting calls to inject or block in-game behaviour. If that means losing your pink IDS to prevent Post items showing up in Pre due to a GW.exe or GW.dat hack or emulation, then so be it.

Textures are the tip of the modding iceberg, they may be harmless but what lurks beneath the surface is a potential game killer. What happens if they work out how to modify meshes or bounding boxes by intercepting and altering client / server interactions and feeding it through a trainer? If we're to believe a private server is under development, then why isn't that within the realms of possibility? Counter-Strike uses a client/server model (granted you can run a local server, thus enabling a hack) - it started out with texture mods and has resulted in wall hacks and headshot bots. If Valve are powerless to prevent it from happening even on dedicated servers, what makes you so certain Anet can?

Cybergasm · Aug 14, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarKaster

im surprised arcanemacabre idea of a macro hasn't been discussed more in depth. I don't know much about modding anything but could something like that be set up with out hacking the exe?

Data packets carry signatures that point to a slew of variables unique to the current user (in this case, the character). Assuming one was to figure out each of these fields to disguise, say, an ascended R/W named Bubba that resides in the Ring of fire into an pre-searing Mo/Me named Shirely that is currently in Ascalon city, then the challenge becomes altering these fields without leaving a huge print. (all this assuming we were able to identify which packets coincide with the actually transfer to the GH and then decrypt them)

Say you succeeded, then the question becomes how do we inject this altered stream of data in such a way that the server will actually accept them.

ALL of this assuming that A.net has little or no packet-protection.

Personally, this sounds like a job for someone who would be using their skill on something more then a game (as in a professional hacker).

WarKaster · Aug 14, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybergasm

Data packets carry signatures that point to a slew of variables unique to the current user (in this case, the character). Assuming one was to figure out each of these fields to disguise, say, an ascended R/W named Bubba that resides in the Ring of fire into an pre-searing Mo/Me named Shirely that is currently in Ascalon city, then the challenge becomes altering these fields without leaving a huge print. (all this assuming we were able to identify which packets coincide with the actually transfer to the GH and then decrypt them)

Say you succeeded, then the question becomes how do we inject this altered stream of data in such a way that the server will actually accept them.

ALL of this assuming that A.net has little or no packet-protection.

Personally, this sounds like a job for someone who would be using their skill on something more then a game (as in a professional hacker).

i was just sayin

....and why does everyone use Bubba and Shirley as an example.....what did they ever do to you.....

so back on the serious tip.....the short and sweet answer would be yes but why waste you time doing it.

Lucifer PVP · Aug 14, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Texmod is harmless.. there is a program just call it "A" since i can't remember the name, that could allow for this to happen. From what i remember reading it allows for your char to transfer to another zone from the application it self meaning the client isn't in focus and you can warp to any zone in guildwars that you have previously been. I never used it or ever intended to, just like to know what other people could be using so i don't become one of those unlucky fellows that account got banned because they accepted a trade.

lyra_song · Aug 14, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I do not wish to continue highjacking the thread, i just want better protection from this sort of exploit and for Anet to prevent third-party applications from launching or altering the GW.exe file, or intercepting calls to inject or block in-game behaviour. If that means losing your pink IDS to prevent Post items showing up in Pre due to a GW.exe or GW.dat hack or emulation, then so be it.

Textures are the tip of the modding iceberg, they may be harmless but what lurks beneath the surface is a potential game killer. What happens if they work out how to modify meshes or bounding boxes? Counter-Strike uses a client/server model (granted you can run a local server, thus enabling a hack) - it started out with texture mods and has resulted in wall hacks and headshot bots. If Valve are powerless to prevent it from happening even on dedicated servers, what makes you so certain Anet can?

You continue to insist that texture modding is the beginning of the end. But the GW community is aware about the negative effects of texture modding and its possible imbalance in pvp (making specific spells easier to see and thus, interrupt, make certain targets glow, etc.), and such effects do not directly affect the client or the server.

Whats next? Modifying animations? effects? Doesnt matter. The actual battle is happening on the server. Its still server side. Wallhack (easily done with texmod...although pointless in an MMORPG) or an aimbot ( C + space?) is already applicable.

The existing blacklist is there already because those are the worst things you can do in this type of game are through macros/bots.

What about the duping exploit? The exploit used NON-MODDED clients to take advantage of a well known problem with MMOs. LAG exploits.

Malicious and opportunistic players would still find some way to ruin the rest of our fun REGARDLESS of what Anet does, says, or declares not allowed, dont you see that?

Narrowing your perspective to say "_____ shouldnt be allowed because it can cause ________" is the REAL road to disaster because it inhibits growth and learning.

Texmod has opened up GOOD mods that are better than Anet's own UI like the spirit radar, the health bar marker, cleaned up icons, and better adrenaline markers and these should be on EVERYONE's client.

===========================

On topic,we still DO NOT KNOW what has caused this, so everyone has to wait and see.

Healers Wisper · Aug 14, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

ok, I really love the doomsday feel to this thread. I can probably however tell you how this minipet got to pre. ANET has a bug in the guild hall programming. How do I know this, cause I had it happend to my account.

I got factions, my first game, at christmas. Night fall in Jan and prof in Feb. so we now have a timeline. My first proph char was created after the so called bug was fixed for Pre char right. At least I think it was, as I have only been on these forums about 2 months. anywho, she was sitting in pre when my guild fell apart. so I joined a new guild while in pre. Low and behold she had access to the guild hall.

I got her bags and salvage kits and whatnot not knowing it was a problem from my main. It wasn't until I made my 2nd pre char a couple months later that I relized you can't enter the GH from pre. I thought this to be wierd and then found out about the exploit.

Now remeber I did this in late feb I belive, dont know exactly but it was not a year ago. I can check the age of my char but I dont think that matters.

Thunder79 · Aug 14, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

People who use and know TexMod know it cannot be the cause of this. Why? Because it is client side only. It doesn't interact with the game client at all...no it interacts with the Graphics API, DirectX...modifying the textures presented to the video card before they are displayed on the screen. No permanent changes can be made because the texture display is modified on the fly. If there were a hidden Guild Hall Button in Pre that you simply cannot see you would still be able to click it. Since you can click till your hearts content in that area on the guild window without triggerring a trip to the guild hall...there is no button there...changing the texture of the window to make the button appear would only change the look...not the content. Nothing on the client is modified.

Anet knows how the program works which is why they allow people to use it. If it did modify the client or gw.dat they would not allow it.

fgarvin · Aug 14, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer PVP

Texmod is harmless.. there is a program just call it "A" since i can't remember the name, that could allow for this to happen. From what i remember reading it allows for your char to transfer to another zone from the application it self meaning the client isn't in focus and you can warp to any zone in guildwars that you have previously been. I never used it or ever intended to, just like to know what other people could be using so i don't become one of those unlucky fellows that account got banned because they accepted a trade.

Program "A" was known as Requia, but it could not warp you back to Pre, just unlocked locations Post-Searing.

TheRaven · Aug 14, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Healers Wisper

ok, I really love the doomsday feel to this thread. I can probably however tell you how this minipet got to pre. ANET has a bug in the guild hall programming. How do I know this, cause I had it happend to my account.

I got factions, my first game, at christmas. Night fall in Jan and prof in Feb. so we now have a timeline. My first proph char was created after the so called bug was fixed for Pre char right. At least I think it was, as I have only been on these forums about 2 months. anywho, she was sitting in pre when my guild fell apart. so I joined a new guild while in pre. Low and behold she had access to the guild hall.

I got her bags and salvage kits and whatnot not knowing it was a problem from my main. It wasn't until I made my 2nd pre char a couple months later that I relized you can't enter the GH from pre. I thought this to be wierd and then found out about the exploit.

Now remeber I did this in late feb I belive, dont know exactly but it was not a year ago. I can check the age of my char but I dont think that matters.

So, are you saying that if a character joins a guild while in Pre, that character can now access the Guild Hall of that new guild? I would think that if this were true, many many many folks would have discovered a hole that large by now and exploited it.

Or instead is it just characters that leave a guild while in Pre and then join a new one. That's still a very big hole.

So, can anyone test that theory?

DOCB22 · Aug 14, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

it amazing these so called "hackers" are smart enought to hack the code to get what they want but dumb enought to bring a mini Mallyx to pre.

p.s.
My dearest Galie dont read the forums before you have your morning coffie. j/k hugs & kisses

Yawgmoth · Aug 14, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Apparently the "Go to Guild Hall" button for Pre characters is blocked only client-side. It makes one of these 3 possibilities open (or even all of them, however some may be much more difficult to do):
1. either by the hack directly affecting the gw.exe running on your machine - telling your game client that you actually pushed the button or changing a memory value to reenable the button so you can click it yourself; (one of those is most probable)
2. modify a file in the gw.dat to reenable the button or even make it a new interface entity,
3. send a packet straight to the server telling that you have just pressed the button (seems to be hard to do because of packet encryption, but those private servers running prove that there are ways around that too)

Each of those possibilities is a clear hacking, using outside software to modify how the game works. And it's ofcourse far different than what a Texmod does so I'm surprised people keep mentioning it in this thread.