Curse

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I have 2 Native Elonians, my Paragon and my Dervish. The rest of my account has all Non-elonians.

It seems to me, that a player with Non-elonian characters and owns both Nightfall and GW:EN would have in their best option to choose Acolyte Jin vs Acolyte Sousuke because having GW:EN already gives you an Elementalist Hero early on, which would make choosing Sousuke redundant.

tenorplayer · Aug 28, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

And the rit hero in GW:EN seems to make going to the trouble of getting Razah obsolete, too. But only for those who are only interested in having *one* rit hero.

Some will still use their Sousuke anyway, I sometimes roll with both of them when I'm playing my elementalist, just to watch the masses of nukes drop.

ArenaNet is simply trying to give the people that don't have Nightfall a passable selection of heroes, or at least that's how it seems to me.

Tijger · Aug 28, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I have 2 Native Elonians, my Paragon and my Dervish. The rest of my account has all Non-elonians.

It seems to me, that a player with Non-elonian characters and owns both Nightfall and GW:EN would have in their best option to choose Acolyte Jin vs Acolyte Sousuke because having GW:EN already gives you an Elementalist Hero early on, which would make choosing Sousuke redundant.

Unless you want 2 Ele's fast ofcourse.

To obtain Zhed you have to do a bit more of Nightfall then to get Sousuke, also some people might want 3 ele's available to them.

SeraCombi · Aug 28, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

set one as a sandstorm/eruption/ward earth ele
set another as a dual attuned ms/rodgorts nuker
set the third as a water snare/maelstrom water ele

or two of them as SF nukers (for raw destructive power), and an mm hero, and take with your ranger primary and let the pawning commence

guess my point is you should keep your eles and max out their gear for different elemental skills

my two cents

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Aug 28, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Its not redundant to have more than 1 hero of each type... sousuke isn't obsolete... this thread is.

bhavv · Aug 28, 2007, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Since Im an elly too, I have sosuke set up as another fire elly, Zhed as an invoke air elly, and I made Vekk a Sandstorm warder, pretty much herta without stone daggers and aura of res (Ebon hawk/stoning/magnetic surge instead

)

Yanman.be · Aug 28, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

My 2 cents:

You have Factions+EotN.

You get paragon and dervish hero in EotN. GG using only 10 paragon skills on them :/.

ValaOfTheFens · Aug 28, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

This thread is ridiculous.

No hero invalidates another. Alot of people beat NF before now and already have doubles of most professions. So wouldn't that make the GWEN heroes partially redundant? *lol* No.

Please use logic next time. kthxbai

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Missed the point much? -.-

ValaOfTheFens: Where would the point of choosing Jin or Sousuke matter to a player who already beat the Nightfall? NOWHERE. Its not applicable since thats not the situation being presented.

Assuming you have all campaigns:

Non-Elonian Outline ->
Nightfall:
Warrior, Dervish, 2 Monks
Then Ranger or Ele
Assassin and Necromancer

GW:EN:
Monk and Ele

The only quest with any CHOICE in such an early area (without beating ANY MISSIONS) is Zaishen Elite. That choice being Ranger Jin or Ele Sousuke.

Now. with addition of GW:EN, you can gain an Ele through Vekk very very easily.

Gaining the ele Vekk removes the NEED to choose the Elementalist Sousuke in the quest unless you are in dire need of 2 eles in your party (if the case you already are a ranger, then that would invalidate the need for a second ranger).

So, a Non-elonian character would be in their best interest to maximize their choice of heroes by choosing Jin and not Sousuke in such an early stage of Nightfall and GW:EN.

Get it?

Bryant Again · Aug 28, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I have 2 Native Elonians, my Paragon and my Dervish. The rest of my account has all Non-elonians.

It seems to me, that a player with Non-elonian characters and owns both Nightfall and GW:EN would have in their best option to choose Acolyte Jin vs Acolyte Sousuke because having GW:EN already gives you an Elementalist Hero early on, which would make choosing Sousuke redundant.

Alrighty then.
Cool.

Like, is this bad?

fenix · Aug 28, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Why would you WANT Jin over Sousuke? A hero Ele is indefinitely more useful than a hero Ranger. And 2 is always better than one.

Can this be closed now?

-Makai- · Aug 28, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

At the same time, we still don't know if Pyre Fierceshot will be a "branch" hero or not, so picking Jin over Sousuke still might not be the best idea.

EternalTempest · Aug 28, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others.

Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora

Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection.

When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked.

This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at.

Lets look at the 3 ele hero's

Acolyte Sousuke default build is 4 fire, 1 engery, 1 earth, 1 unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof default build is 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Vekk - default build is 4 air, 1 water, 1 engery, 1 unlinked

Looking at that, I think all can do fire, but when it comes to air builds, I think Vekk could handle air better then Sousuke.

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Why would you WANT Jin over Sousuke? A hero Ele is indefinitely more useful than a hero Ranger. And 2 is always better than one.

Can this be closed now?

Regardless of your opinion over which class is better doesn't negate the fact that given the presence of Vekk, choosing Sousuke adds redudancy.

Your own personal preferences through, builds of choice or class preference, may cause you to choose Sousuke and double up early on in elementalists, but preference is hardly logical.

The only real logical counterpoint would be a player's own pool of skills, for example a player with a lot of ele skills unlocked and few ranger skills should NOT choose Jin because it would be the less functional choice in choice of builds and skills. Such an example is more universally applicable and transcends "preferences".

Harmless · Aug 28, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

At the end of nightfall you can get all heroes anyhow.

What I like about it is that I don't have to bother with switching runes and weapons on as many heroes now. Drove me crazy with the eles, would set one up as earth then realize I forgot to swap weapons.

I would be happy with having enough of each kind to specialize the necros, warriors, ritualists, and mesmers too. One more of each of those should do it.

ValaOfTheFens · Aug 28, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Missed the point much? -.-

ValaOfTheFens: Where would the point of choosing Jin or Sousuke matter to a player who already beat the Nightfall? NOWHERE. Its not applicable since thats not the situation being presented.

Assuming you have all campaigns:

Non-Elonian Outline ->
Nightfall:
Warrior, Dervish, 2 Monks
Then Ranger or Ele
Assassin and Necromancer

GW:EN:
Monk and Ele

The only quest with any CHOICE in such an early area (without beating ANY MISSIONS) is Zaishen Elite. That choice being Ranger Jin or Ele Sousuke.

Now. with addition of GW:EN, you can gain an Ele through Vekk very very easily.

Gaining the ele Vekk removes the NEED to choose the Elementalist Sousuke in the quest unless you are in dire need of 2 eles in your party (if the case you already are a ranger, then that would invalidate the need for a second ranger).

So, a Non-elonian character would be in their best interest to maximize their choice of heroes by choosing Jin and not Sousuke in such an early stage of Nightfall and GW:EN.

Get it?

No. Because most of people who will play GWEN have already made their choices in NF and have had to live(and die) by them. Those who haven't should choose which hero based on their needs. The only attraction the GWEN heroes have over the other heroes is that they're already 20. When I got my 1st set of heroes it was before the first 3 were automatically at 15.

The Elonian heroes are somewhat more attractive to me than the GWEN heroes because the quests to get them are token efforts at best and only take about 5 mins. The whole Norn tournament thing didn't interest me in the slightest as I don't really care for PvP(or PvNPC), not even with the prospect of gaining new heroes. I'm more of a puzzle sort of person.

prism2525 · Aug 28, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Zhed, Vekk, Sousuke and YOU all SF nukers = one hell of a damage output.

Rhys · Aug 28, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others.
Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora

Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection.

When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked.

This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at.

Is this true? I've always assumed AI is the same for all the heroes and dependant on the skill bar you give them.

Faer · Aug 28, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Searing Flames is bad.

Invoke Lightning + Energy Blast spike, go!

zwei2stein · Aug 28, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others.

Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora

Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection.

When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked.

This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at.

Lets look at the 3 ele hero's

Acolyte Sousuke default build is 4 fire, 1 engery, 1 earth, 1 unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof default build is 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Vekk - default build is 4 air, 1 water, 1 engery, 1 unlinked

Looking at that, I think all can do fire, but when it comes to air builds, I think Vekk could handle air better then Sousuke.

All it means that devs simply gave them different starting skills. If you saw dev videos, you would see Vekk used and Fire/Earth. If devs knew he would be way better in Air, they would use it, doh.

I would be very suprised if anet gave each hero different ai.

In the end, Talhora and Dunkoro given same build work equally fine for me.

Zhed and Sousuke always performend same with identical E/Me build (that they run in pair, so you can literally see them both following exactly same pattern). If you add Norgu as third with identical build only with Me/E and points in fascast isntead of storage, yet again he works skills like other two.

Next thing you get are peaple claiming that they can teach heroes to use builds correctly by manually activating skills. Like teaching Olias to spam BoTM.

Which is quite funny, because Xandra given build identical to what i use on Razah did ... exactly same things like him.

Most of 'Hero Talk' is anecdotal experience, and as such has not much point.

Valid research would possibly mean a lot of time spent with dummies on isle of nameless with couple of builds and carefull observation of timing when using skills.