Curse

mazey vorstagg · Sep 04, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

A very in depth look at the GW team building strategy.
I agree with you. That's why I play an earth ele, eruption can render groups of warriors useless whilst dealing damage, my armor spells let me survive so I can keep dishing damage. Although I tend to build my heroes slightly differently, my character builds rarely feature more than 5 attack skills, and the rest is defensive/energy management and healing.

Abnaxus · Sep 04, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Most players adapt to the challenges the game offers, want to win easy with no much effort (especially brain effort) and in the shortest time.

I remember when in the far September/October 2005 A.net gave the mobs the little intelligence to move when hit by AoE spell, and the thousands of echo nukers complaining and quitting a broken game in which those nasty foes dared to move, instead of being killed by their uber meteor showers falling on their heads.
And even in the following months, some echo nukers didn't change a single skill in their bars.

To the OP: I would like to point out that in terms of raw damage, one or two splinter barrage rangers probably perform better than nukers.
Rangers are the new nukers in my opinion, especially against heavily armored and fire resistant foes, with the advantage of better armor and a lot of caster shutdown skills.
Now with "Volley" for instance, you can have a splinter volley + BHA ranger = heavy damage dealer + caster destroyer.

I have only recently created a Paragon, and I'm really impressed by it's party wide buff capability + damage output + deep wound spreading, deep wound is really the worst condition as it quickly kills everything, no matter of armor.
Probably from now on General Morgahn will replace the antiquated Sousuke in all my parties LOL.

All this poses a discussion about the role of warriors and eles.
For eles, they have other lines which in my opinion are more intesting than fire.
Earth is capable of both protecting the party and deal huge damage, probably will be the main replacement. Water is also interesting, although more situational.

Warriors: well I've completed 3 campaigns with my warrior and never played as a tank, always as damage dealer.
Hopefully, now someone will realize what is the real role of the warrior

EternalTempest · Sep 04, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

No way is this true. Warriors often brought damage dealing skills with group benefit skill such as "Watch Yourself" for in missions like Hell's Precipice. Even back then, if a skill did not provide support or help the group, it wasn't a great skills. ie mending, healing hands or w/mo's.

Pre-Searing showed how you can kill things / do high damage at first, latter on the role changed to holding aggro. A lot of W/Mo still don't realize this, rush mobs too soon, try to kill things then complain about not being healed becasue they can't hold there own.

Not saying all war's do this but enough to create this stero type, still come across them.

Taki · Sep 04, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

The opening ocean of a post is too long IMO and could have had a stronger effect on the freshwater fish if a vid was posted showing the more effective skills and other classes owning it up. The only thing needed other than that would be complete templates to serve as bait.

People generally like things to work in a non-complicated manner and the trinity is as simple as you can get. Smarter or more experienced players can get the same things done going outside the Sacred Three, and faster, but it takes a bit more effort and often requires the brain to be switched partially back on after school or work. Too much effort is bad, in case you didn't know, and that limit differs for each person. Many players just want to have fun, preferably without much thinking. Call it laziness if it pleases you but the tank-nuke-heal combo allows for this type of effortless, skilless, yet rewarding play.

FeroxC · Sep 04, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

The problem is the Paragon is an experts class like the mesmer however its skills are more passive.

You need to have access to the Paragons full skillbar and know how to use it. As well as this you need to know the skills of your teammates , the Paragon works on synenergies which is what makes him underpowered in the wrong hands and overpowered in the right and totally n00b unfriendly.

Ive loved the Paragon but its painfull to watch it get nerfed, sure the sunspear skill might of been powerfull but people still didnt even appreciate this.
Combining it with ToF wasn't as powerfull as claimed it was too conditional and burning was too difficult to spread i believe in RTS they call it 'theory craft'.

Etta · Sep 04, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

Call it laziness if it pleases you but the tank-nuke-heal combo allows for this type of effortless, skilless play.

And that is why so many still stuck at Gate of Madness. I know what you're saying though, don't get me wrong. We can't expect everyone to think outside of the box or look at things from a different perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

you need to know the skills of your teammates , the Paragon works on synenergies which is what makes him underpowered in the wrong hands and overpowered in the right and totally n00b unfriendly.

Agree, that's why a guild team or some friends with heroes are more popular than pugs for Paragon. Experimental team build can't be use on pugs. Paragon they're like, Sonic Youth of Guild Wars.

Avarre · Sep 04, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

Call it laziness if it pleases you but the tank-nuke-heal combo allows for this type of effortless, skilless, yet rewarding play.

Passive defense is a lazier method, because you don't even have to do anything. Just press your skills and c-space, there isn't even a need for a tank or caring about aggro. That's the largest criticism about passive defense among PvP players - it's a process that any newbie can do that involves pressing buttons when they recharge to cover absolutely all avenues of counterattack.

The only effort is the one-time investment of setting up a build that's slightly more complex than adding every skill that says 'deal X damage'.

Quote:

The opening ocean of a post is too long IMO and could have had a stronger effect on the freshwater fish if a vid was posted showing the more effective skills and other classes owning it up. The only thing needed other than that would be complete templates to serve as bait.

Anyone unwilling to put in a few minutes to read it isn't likely to change their playstyle anyway.

Moa Bird Cultist · Sep 04, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

If you can avoid playing with that majority then it should not be a problem. I have to say, that was a very well written opinion. I couldn't agree more about paragons, as the oft quoted combination of Aggressive Refrain and "Go For The Eyes" combined with a decent damage spear outputs a very high amount of damage. I took the new Paragon Hero, Hayda with me to do one of the master difficulty Eye Of The North quests yesterday and was surprised at just how strong she was.

In fact, my parties have changed a lot since last week - I frequently take Gwen as a frontline signet support character and I have turned Magrid and Jin into spearchuckers - no ressurect, but unparalleled single target DPS, not to mention excelent caster-lock. As always, I run Sousuke as a warder/prot, so he may have only 2 or 3 pure offense skills on his bar, but the duality of erruption combined with his wards can shut most melee pressure down completely. And then on top of that, he'll have Aegis or P-Spirt and Convert Hexes to take advantage of a high energy pool which isn't strained by his elementalst skills.

Of course this isn't to say warriors and their ilk have no place in a party any more, it just means they have to play their cards differently. The 'Stance Tank' is dead, I think we all can agree, and with it, a new type of competent warrior has been finding it's way into groups - the high DPS/Passive Support type. Did you know that Talon Silverwing has Crippling Slash in EoTN? That one ability, the ability to cripple, makes him a hundred times better than any of the other henchmen, as in this day and age of half decent mob ai and enemy scatter, cripple is one of the most powerful conditions in a players arsenal, where single target takedowns are often far more efficient than aoe.

The only question is, where does this leave the elementalist? Well, I've just kept doing what I do best. Yes, thats right, in this day and age of half decent mob ai and enemy scatter, hamstorm still works. Well it's not really hamstorm - it's just enchant yourself to the max, go in and chop stuff up with a combination of norn and warrior skills and hope the enemy didnt bring enchantment removal...

Esan · Sep 04, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Any discussions about strategies must first disregard the PvE-only skills. Heroes cannot use them, so they are useless to essentially everyone.

I am amused to see a thread such as this in the sunset days of Guild Wars 1. Only an idealist or a fool would believe that the player's mind-set can be changed today, soon to be three years since their minds were last open to possibilities. The most EotN might achieve in the laughably stagnant PvE meta is dethroning Searing Flames.

Avarre · Sep 04, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Any discussions about strategies must first disregard the PvE-only skills. Heroes cannot use them, so they are useless to essentially everyone.

Essentially everyone is a hero. Let it be known.

Quote:

I am amused to see a thread such as this in the sunset days of Guild Wars 1. Only an idealist or a fool would believe that the player's mind-set can be changed today, soon to be three years since their minds were last open to possibilities. The most EotN might achieve in the laughably stagnant PvE meta is dethroning Searing Flames.

I am amused at how bad you are at PvE if you think Searing Flames is that good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LONGA

Where are the mesmers ? Interupt those nasty nuke before they hit you or bypass enemy defenses with enchantment removal.

You can interrupt a few casts headed towards our team, or spread out against AoE, take small fragments of damage from all the defense on us, and fit another useful character on our team. (Paragons can fit enchant removal fairly effectively).

LONGA · Sep 04, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Where are the mesmers ? Interupt those nasty nuke before they hit you or bypass enemy defenses with enchantment removal.

There's also a lot of mesmer build that good at suppport like the having arcane conundrum which make enemy expose to lots of interrupt.Or those with hex and enchantment removal which is not really acknowledge by lots of player.

Having done dungeon in Eotn I found that many enemy group are designed to eliminate those tank > nuke > heal mindset and some of those wild spread builts.

Like Ominous Ooze which carry Vetera's Aura which make minions turn on thier master.Or a group of smite monk that focus on hex and condition removal.

Of course that they can't achieve those if they got interrupted in the first place.

Sekkira · Sep 04, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

From the time I first saw the Paragon showed in the NF preview, while I didn't want to play the class personally, I knew how valuable they would be in a party.
It makes me sad how practically nobody else saw this as well.

Shanaeri Rynale · Sep 04, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Interesting. Some fault has to lay clearly at the feet of the designers, some missions and quests are clearly designed to make certain classes less or appear less useful than others. This fuels peoples desire to take the easy route through the game.

Gw:en is a huge step forward in my view. The Mobs are well made, even the elite mission is not designed to counter some professions(as opposed to DoA which basically, by design exclude whole groups of players who play professions outside of that design).

I love playing paragon, it's my second favorite profession after mesmer. Anyone who has not seen a paragon played well(same as assasin, mesmer, dervish etc) does not appreciate how much they bring to the party above and beyond the traditional mix. I recommend playing one.

It seems as though Anet learned their lesson, and has now in Gw:en gone back to the roots which made propecies such a great and compelling game

Curar Partida · Sep 04, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I always use a buff para in my team with my sf ele. Keep them blazing.

zwei2stein · Sep 04, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I just wonder ... where does this leave assassins?

There is little they can do for party, they can spike down targets, sure, is isnt it where their usefulness ends?

Somehow i cant see them fitting to Trinity party, but there is not that much place for them in Duality party either.

Few hexes, but assassin hexes are usually "selfish" (only working for caster), some conditions inflicting, but warrior/ranger/paragon do that just fine, but safer.

yesitsrob · Sep 04, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

About complexity, there's really not many things easier to play than a Paragon while offering so much to your team.

You'll find you can safely spam GFTE or WY to provide yourself with an endless energy pool while also maintaining your Aggressive Refrain - and a lot of your party boosting skills can largely just be used on recharge, same goes for your attack skills. With enough GFTE mashing you should have the energy to be able to do that.

Assassins are generaly fine in areas that don't have enchantment removal - critical agility really is a must. A Moebious + Death Blossom build is normally very solid.

tacitus · Sep 04, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Hat off to the OP for the good post

For as much as I believe almost everything in the initial post I don't see it doing much for the general player base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

You have to concede though that the majority of players don't care, and never will.

Malice Black is right, I don't want to be to negative in my post but I sometimes I despair at the general community.

Seeing how far mending/ healing hands whammos, flare spammers, healing monks with pets etc get in the game without really thinking about heir builds is shocking. Most of these players are unwilling to consider changing builds because they believe that these builds have got them through all the missions/quests so far. (the fact they may be carried in missions doesn't occur to them)

A step up from these players are those who have better skill bars but still almost never change skills as they travel around different missions. These players find a skill bar they like and never change it. In many cases they rely on certain key skills and will protest at any skill balance that threatens their build. (singular) The number of players that fall into these categories are not small unfortunately.

As the players increase in skill however we hit a barrier that separates a lot of players. This barrier is the Trinity described in the OP and also any other standard team build that is around. This barrier im talking about is successfully doing 95% of the game with certain builds. The success of builds like the Trinity means that players don't need to look past this point.
If it works why change it At this point pugs form on the basis of easy to roll builds and we have standardized builds that have a good chance of successes for many players. This never changes unless there is a major update to the game which may change how these builds work. However the pugs will move slower than most other teams at adapting to changes from new content like GWEN or skill balances nerfing cookie cutter builds.

This success barrier stops build developments going further for many players. For example how often do you see parties forming who ask for a minion master believing that it is neededfor the mission at hand . In many cases other classes would be ignored and necros forced to run MM because the other players don't think curses/ blood would be of any use.

However going on a more positive note.
Many players do go past the success barrier looking for new ways of doing things for many reasons. Maybe they want to play classes which are not usually welcomed in teams like paragons, or maybe they are bored running the same stuff all the time.

Also I think the mobs in GWEN are far better, the mobs have generally better skill bars and encourage more use of mesmers, sins etc since its less about nuking the crap of everything surrounding the whammo.

Many players can run quite different builds inside guild teams or with a few friends and heroes etc. However this wont change the mentality of most pugs which leads to some questions.
If we can play with guild/friends does it matter how good bad pugs are?
have heroes replaced the use of pugs in most places anyway?
These questions i don't expect to be answered here without going off topic but they should be kept in the back of the mind,

In the few places where pugs are needed they tend to be very strict about what they want/need. This is where pre set builds like the Trinity come into play. Why explain to people why they should drop the simple Trinity and explain why they should have another team build and then give that out hoping players understand what they are expected to do with it. Just going in with the tank and nukers will be quicker than explaining to pugs the different things expected of them.

I think the Trinity is just the simplest type of build out there and if it needs to change for whatever reason it will but the next most simple build will become the new pug favorite which everyone who wants to pug will be required to learn however in the future paragons and other classes may make an appearance. New build construction will remain within guilds and friends list. However I would encourage people to use new things more often because it keeps the game fresh and will make players more aware of different skills and skill combos than using the same template over and over again for everything

AlienFromBeyond · Sep 04, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

IMO, Assassins are a PvP class anyways, I never take them in PvE.

Esan · Sep 04, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Essentially everyone is a hero. Let it be known.

If we go by sheer number of player-allied characters in all PvE instances, then heroes vastly outnumber players.

Quote:

I am amused at how bad you are at PvE if you think Searing Flames is that good.

Well, I am glad that your total misunderstanding of my comment amused you at least.

Burst Cancel · Sep 04, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

It leaves the Assassins in town, obviously.

I actually think the point of the article is more basic than trinity -> duality. Really, it's a matter of importing high-end PvP design philosophy into PvE - specifically, don't assume you can hold aggro. The entire concept of the Trinity stands or falls according to the validity of that assumption. Consider: if we can reasonably assume that the tank can hold aggro all the time, the Trinity remains more effective than a passive defense duality - ball 'em up and nuke the **** out of them is still the fastest way to get things done, if you can actually ball them up to begin with.

Once you throw away the ability to hold aggro, common sense naturally leads you to constant, party-wide defense in the form of shouts, enchantments, wards, and spirits. It also naturally leads to 'balanced' GvG-type team building where the frontliners provide straight pressure, the midliners have hybrid support/pressure roles, and the backline is strictly defensive.

I remember your (i.e., Avarre's) advice when HM was first introduced: do everything that made GvG boring; you will win. I see this article as an elaboration of that basic idea.