Curse

Yichi · Sep 11, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

thats your choice. You are not everyone. There are alot of people that WOULD take a pug if they didnt know what rank they were. Just cause you wont doesnt mean others wouldnt.

Actually you have this quite backwards. Most if not almost ALL pugs in HA would die if this change was implemented. Most of the decent players would have a friends list that they would play from or not play.

boko · Sep 11, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

If you dont like 1v1 then you wouldnt have to play in it now would you? Others however would actually find this fun. Would be an alternative to the Elitism in HA where everyone thinks they are better than you cause they are high ranked.

The problem is not the whether I want to play it or not. The problem with such a suggestion is that it is simply not feasible. How would Anet balance such an arena? The problem with GW is that you are limited with 8 skills out of thousands of skills per bar. In other words, on one day, you would run into the usual whammo, and beat them to a pulp. But when you run into a mesmer, you are pretty screwed. And if you take skills against melee chars, then casters will practically beat you all the time. Simply put, there is absolutely no skills or minimal skills involved in such an arena. In fact, that would no longer be an arena, more like a lottery contest.

And from that, winning in such an arena, I barely see what is there to prove in that, apart from that your build > opponent build. It does, in no way, prove that you outplayed your opponent. Hence, any sense of competitveness is basically null in that sort of "arena".

mafia cyborg · Sep 11, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

My point is, in 1v1 battle, you can be beaten through no fault of your own. No matter how well you play, if you come across a counter build, you lose. Might as well go and play rock-paper-scissors if you want a game of chance.

not true though.

in random 1vs1

u have to choose the build that will get u best win ratio....and thats the one that adapts better to most situations as u have no idea who or what u gonna face. the search for the best multipurpose build is half of the fun (and it will be a neverending search)...the other half is the fight.
u dont have to choose rock-paper-scissor....but u can be a bit of all three at once...thats' the whole point of finding a build that can deal with a bit of everything.
obviosuly u will find builds that hard counter yours and u'll lose....but it's all about win-lose ratio.(the guy who had a build which hardcountered yours is not likely to do well if he's so specifically anti-X )
if u win more than u lose u're doin somethin right ....if not u need to change your build/playstile to be able to overcome most situations.
if there is a ladder...u should gain levels for wins and lose levels for losses...so to climb u need to find a build that will assure u have a good win/ratio

in profession 1vs1 (me vs me, war vs war, nec vs nec etc etc)
even more skill based.u can choose the matchup u enjoy most(mesmer vs mesmer for example).....and its on equal terms...again u need to find a good general build to win more than u lose.

duel
its for fun...

i'm not sayin it will be a great competitive experience.....but i'm 100% sure there'll be more ppl on 1v1 than in team games.

Yichi · Sep 11, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I'm sorry but trying to implement a 1v1 situation in a team based game is a horrible idea.

EternalTempest · Sep 11, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Agree 1vs1 is bad idea.

Look at the reaction on 1 vs 1 (npc) norn torument.

It boils down to any sort of random 1vs1 will yeild you will lose no matter what if Build X could destroy your Build Y and have no chance.

brian78wa · Sep 11, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by boko

The problem is not the whether I want to play it or not. The problem with such a suggestion is that it is simply not feasible. How would Anet balance such an arena? The problem with GW is that you are limited with 8 skills out of thousands of skills per bar. In other words, on one day, you would run into the usual whammo, and beat them to a pulp. But when you run into a mesmer, you are pretty screwed. And if you take skills against melee chars, then casters will practically beat you all the time. Simply put, there is absolutely no skills or minimal skills involved in such an arena. In fact, that would no longer be an arena, more like a lottery contest.

And from that, winning in such an arena, I barely see what is there to prove in that, apart from that your build > opponent build. It does, in no way, prove that you outplayed your opponent. Hence, any sense of competitveness is basically null in that sort of "arena".

You know...there are anti-melee AND caster builds that can be used. You can believe it or not mix it up a bit.

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Agree 1vs1 is bad idea.

Look at the reaction on 1 vs 1 (npc) norn torument.

It boils down to any sort of random 1vs1 will yeild you will lose no matter what if Build X could destroy your Build Y and have no chance.

Well the Norn tournament isnt so bad because theres a limited set of builds you run into and its documented on wiki. With that, you can fully set your build to handle most targets.

boko · Sep 11, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

You know...there are anti-melee AND caster builds that can be used. You can believe it or not mix it up a bit.

I am speechless. I'll keep it brief and say it is a horrible idea, and I dun't think I am gonna bother elaborating more on that part. I did plenty already. I dun't think anything I say will reach you nor do I think you even stepped foot in a pvp arena.

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 11, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

There are so many problems inherently wrong with 1v1 combat in GW that I don't know where to start. I'll just say that it won't work, and it will never be implemented into a PvP mode.

Skill balance is essential to PvP.

Obs Mode does not result in skill balances. Overpowered skills result in skill balances. A Searing Flames that does 100+ AoE damage is overpowered, and it will catch on, Obs Mode or not.

SF is not overpowered, fire eles are supposed to be powerful. I have crushed ranked SF teams with groups of unranked players. It can be countered, before the nerf, but id imagine a Hardcore PVPer
like yourself would know that wouldnt you. Cant counter SF? Please.

I didnt say skill balances werent needed, I said they dont need to be nearly the issue that the PvP community makes them into. I did not say observer mode is the result but that it contributes to the skill nerf by contributing to all the buildcopying going on and running of the same builds rather than creativity, so alot of teams are running the same kind of thing. That leads to nerfing of some skills because someone somewhere says x is overpowered because it cant be beat by y, or it must be overpowered because everyone is running the same thing or whatever.

mafia cyborg · Sep 11, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

noone is likely to enter 1vs1 random with anti-specific builds.....and if they do they'll not do well cos they'll only win in specific situation. hence they will not level.(levellin based on win-lose ratio)
ppl that want to climb the ladder will be forced to play all round builds.....the build which can counter most situations will go further. specific builds will not level well.
as simple as.
so yeh u will find someone who enters with a anti-X build.....but mostly u'll find general builds (that can handle hexes, conditions,do damage ,interrupt etc etc).
also whether it will be balanced noone really cares....ppl just wanna have fun and its a good introduction to pvp anyway.
anet bring 1vs1 now pls.

ps:look at polymock.. i can tell that my skill is better than the AI's...or am i just more lucky than the AI ?there surely u can compare skill somehow..... maybe the idea of 4 common skills could help....not sure. but thats an example where 1vs1 can give an indication of skill...

Razz L Dazzle · Sep 11, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Not sure why PvPers are posting here.

Reading Brian78wa is giving me a headache, worse with each post.

Ignore the nonsense , don't argue with the people that lack any understanding of balance or Pvp, make a few suggestions that you hope Andrew Patrick might like and move on.

I suggest a fairly cheap Full PvP UAX pack 50 dollars U.S. Create a GW:EN tournament championship that showcases the best players still remaining, with a nice location, and earn prizes that are a bit better than the last World championship. For those that whine they had to buy 2 pvp packs i'm sorry, tough luck. I doubt many of those people will mind if new players actually started pvping.

-Cheers

brian78wa · Sep 11, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by boko

I am speechless. I'll keep it brief and say it is a horrible idea, and I dun't think I am gonna bother elaborating more on that part. I did plenty already. I dun't think anything I say will reach you nor do I think you even stepped foot in a pvp arena.

I used to PvP all the time. Had you read previous posts. You would have seen that. Stopped PvP when all the Elitism really got too much to handle.
And just because YOU think its a horrible idea doesnt make it true. Ive used many many builds including ones like I had mentioned. The ones that counter both melee and casters worked very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

Not sure why PvPers are posting here.

Reading Brian78wa is giving me a headache, worse with each post.

Ignore the nonsense , don't argue with the people that lack any understanding of balance or Pvp, make a few suggestions that you hope Andrew Patrick might like and move on.

I suggest a fairly cheap Full PvP UAX pack 50 dollars U.S. Create a GW:EN tournament championship that showcases the best players still remaining, with a nice location, and earn prizes that are a bit better than the last World championship. For those that whine they had to buy 2 pvp packs i'm sorry, tough luck. I doubt many of those people will mind if new players actually started pvping.

-Cheers

First of all if I give you a headache then dont read them Second I DO understand PvP.
Just because my opinion is different than yours doesnt make it wrong.
This is what I HATE about most people. If you dont agree with them then they are stupid dont understand are wrong etc etc.
Just because you think one thing doesnt make it right.
You people need to get off your little pedestals seriously.

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

I think A Net only failure was trying too hard to please the pvp community and dont think that skill balance needs to be anywhere near what the pvp community makes it into. There are only a few skills that really needed to be balanced and I dont think alot of skills needed to be nerfed to the degree that they have been, and I agree with the guy that said everything can be countered. The main problem with the pvp comminty is the elitism which needs to be toned down, and I agree with everyone that said the titles are a problem. It was really a good idea on anets part and I dont think anet intended for them to be what the community turned it into.

I really wish this kind of post from people who have never played anywhere near the top level of the game would stop. You clearly underestimate how important balance is in this game, because you have never been in a situation where it was required. Thus, you are ignorant to the detrimental effects of poor balance and overpowered skills. For the sake of argument, just think about this - there is a skill in the game, which instantly kills the target. The downside is, it's got a 3 second cast, a 30 second recharge, and costs 25 energy, and is elite. Would you say that skill is balanced? According to your argument that everything has counters, it is. You can interrupt it, use Signet of Humility on it, or energy deny the person who wants to use it.

The problem with the thinking of "there is a counter so it's balanced" is that the counter can be nullified, or there may be more things that the counter to that particular skill must be used on. You can easily say "just Diversion it" about a skill, or "just interrupt it", but in practise you won't be able to 100% of the time. The skill can be cancelled, you can have Sig Humil interrupted, the guy can run Glpyh/Mantra of Conc. or Resolve. He can run Glpyh Lesser also, with a Mantra. Yes, there are counters, but they can be stopped, and in the actual environment of play, you won't always have ideal conditions where your counter will work, because your resources may be used on something else.

Quote:

Observer Mode is unfortunately another problem. I really like alot of what observer mode and the idea behind it, unfortunately what the community has turned it into is not what it was intended to be used for. It is now as someone else said just a build copying tool, and it contributes to everyone running the same kind of builds and the ultimate skill balance issue that always follows.

The only problem with Observer Mode is that match length and skill balance has been affected so as to make matches more exciting to watch.

Quote:

Elitism: dont add perks to the game that contribute to it. Its nice to have rewards for accomplishments but maybe the rewards could be something that doesnt contribute to elitism. Get away from titles.

There isn't really elitism in the use of titles, it's a common myth. If you're referring to rank 9 and aboves wanting to group with others of the same rank, it is merely because they know that those players are experienced in that area of the game, and would rather party with them than someone who is less experienced, in a pug situation. Titles mean nothing when you have people on your friends list who want to play.

Quote:

Observer Mode: Its nice to have something to help people get into PvP, but unfortunately that is not how it has been used by the community. Both established PvP guilds use this as well as newly forming PvP guilds as a simple build copying tool. Newer PvP that I joined try to just copy high end builds and run it without even understanding the strategy behind it, lol. (Farenheight and Byron [x guildies] know this all too well) I like what guru has that just simply looks at some builds and discusses the general strategy behind them and the metagame every so often. Or maybe thats found on GW.com, been a while since Ive read any of that stuff, mostly given up with PvP because of what it has become, sadly. I just hope GW 2 doesnt have all the problems that GW has developed. Looking forward to it.

People running the same build is not a problem with the game, as there will always be some builds that function better than others. Teams will quickly begin to play that, or find reasonable counters to fit into their own builds. The problem comes when those builds are too overpowered and the game is completely stagnant and requires very little skill to excel in (as is now).

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofevil

VoD at 30 minutes is a complete borefest.

Seriously, with 18 minutes much of the game has been decided already (in fact, much of a game has usually been decided within 10-15 minutes, and if it hasn't more time won't break the deadlock).

I disagree. There's a post in the Gladiator's Arena section on my reasoning for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

I think thats kinda the point that was being made.
Unless youre r6 or with friends you dont get a group. A r0 can be better than a r6. r6 doesnt always mean that youre better(not saying it that some arent better but not always) First time I did HA was with my guild all of r0 we were facing a ranked guild around rank 100 iirc and we beat them with ease.They all came in ranking us with there silly emotes. and they got beat. So the point is quit with all the elitism and maybe PvP may be revived.

Rank 6 shows you have some experience, nothing more really. Of course, given the question of taking someone with experience, or someone without, who would you take? It's the same in any form of PvE, and don't even bother saying you would take a new player over an old one.

Quote:

Not really. Some of the pugs out there are better than people you trust.

Rank discrimination only comes into the fold when you are trying to get someone you do not know. There is no other time rank discrimination is used, unless jokingly.

Quote:

Chance IS what would be fun about 1v1.
Who wants to play something that you win all the time?

Rock paper scissors is not fun. Losing before the match begins due to not having any way to win unless the other team/person makes a ridiculously bad mistake isn't fun at all. Winning is fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

SF is not overpowered, fire eles are supposed to be powerful. I have crushed ranked SF teams with groups of unranked players. It can be countered, before the nerf, but id imagine a Hardcore PVPer
like yourself would know that wouldnt you. Cant counter SF? Please.

Something having a counter does not mean that thing is balanced. You know why SF was imbalanced? Because it was ridiculous damage in a huge AE that required absolutely no skill to have a decimating effect. You know what's still bad about it? The fact that in GvG you have these things called Knights, Archers, and a Bodyguard, that will all quite happily ball up and let you run however many copies and nuke them into nonexistance.

Gigashadow · Sep 11, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

One reason PvP is dying is because there is nobody to replace the people being lost through attrition (attrition is natural for any game).

It is very very difficult to get online friends from other games, who have never played Guild Wars before, into GW PvP. I certainly tried. These are people that aren't interested in the PvE campaigns, and yes, they bought the UAX packs (these don't unlock weapon mods and runes btw). Annoyances like click-to-move and the inability to jump aside, the learning curve for GW PvP for someone who has never even played the game before, is way too harsh. They get absolutely decimated in random arena, for example. I suppose you could say "Screw them then, they suck and aren't dedicated enough", but if you do, understand that's why you aren't going to get any more people playing.

Also, the in-game community in this game, in both PvP and PvE (as well as on the forums for that matter), is absolutely horrible, so when they don't know anyone else who is on, they really do not want to group up with strangers any more. Part of the reason for the horrible community is that there is no accountability - in conventional mmorpgs, there is the concept of a home server with its own community, and people actually care about their own and their guild's reputations. In GW, you won't run into the same person twice, or even recognize guild names, so few people seem to care how they treat others.

There needs to be more of a stepping stone for people to ease themselves into PvP. I think a large casual pvp instance map, with a larger number of people on each side, with various objectives (think something along the lines of WoW's Alterac Valley), and no NPCs at all, could work, and would be more forgiving for prospective new pvp players than Alliance Battles or Random Arena.

Sinnocent · Sep 11, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

To get this part out of the way; I'm not a hardcore GW player.

With that said, with most MMO's, or even online console based games, I enjoy PvP aspects of gaming. It's fun. Well, sometimes it's fun.

Only speaking for myself and from my standpoint I would be more attracted to furthering my PvP experience in GW if I wasn't chastised for every little thing.

I even see it in this thread. Mixed messages so to speak.

I'm told to run builds from wiki because they're supposively proven to be highly successful and I get chastised for running the same thing everyone else has.

Then the times I get creative, take serious time creating and tweaking a personally made built that can adapt, hold offense and defense, and hold a good chance for helping the team win. Not just throwing in anything and everything that works in PvE, but actually picking skills that can adapt to certain pvp situations. Actual consideration of who I may be paired with and who we may be up against. What happens? I get chastised for not running the proven and successful cookie cutter build - even when the one I have created and tweaked has been pretty successful.

I don't even ping my builds anymore. I've come to the conclusion I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

But I'm always open to ideas and suggestions. So I've ask for advice and opinions on either current builds, or tweaks on new ideas. The top 3 responses I get usually are:

1) "Noob"
2) "wtf?"
3) "LOLphail"

In fact, there are only 3 people I've ever met in pvp areas who have actually whispered me in game and sat down with me to discuss builds, possible changes, and approaches I could take. Not a very high statistic, which I find unfortunate, but nonetheless, we both learned, laughed, and did some designing. It was fun. That "f" word I thought was really important to everyone.

In the end though it's sometimes a no win situation for players, like myself, who have a great desire to further their pvp experience, but simply can't bring themselves to find the effort, or desire, to enter that atmosphere where you don't pretend you're not as expereinced, for we haven't owned the game since its first release date, but get chastised for it constantly when you're trying to learn more of the ropes. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If the team fails because of anything I've done wrong, instead of whispering me for 10 minutes calling me names, why not work with me, as an adult with actual human intelligence, to improve our success? Honestly, it hasn't been a once, or twice thing. It's been a lot.

I also feel I'm probably not the only one with this perspective, of a somewhat casual player, wanting to become more versatile in the pvp area, but are discouraged from doing so because they either a) Can't get unbiased and polite help, or b) Even when/if they do get the assistance, they're still scoffed at.

So that's my detraction from pvp. I'd like to become a well rounded pvp player. Play in an environment that, even if it's a crushing defeat, we can all still laugh, lick our wounds, and try again. I just can't ever seem to find that environment though. I find myself in the one that, even in a crushing defeat, the players suffer uncontrollable tourettes attacks, and when asking for advice, I get more uncontrollable tourettes attacks.

Anywhoo, I'm sure I've stepped too close to a fire I should have stayed away from, but that's ok. I'm secretly a pyromaniac; although not so much a secret anymore...

And before I get accused of it, this isn't a rag on "leetness". Truth is the few very helpful players who've striked up convos with me to help have been, or were, the long time pvp only players, or primarily pvp'ers. To further truth, it's the long time experienced players I want to learn from. I just don't want to learn it in the form where I'm treated like a 9 year old, or called every name in the book like I'm still in high school.

brian78wa · Sep 11, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Rock paper scissors is not fun. Losing before the match begins due to not having any way to win unless the other team/person makes a ridiculously bad mistake isn't fun at all. Winning is fun.

Sure winning is fun but not if its ALL the time. A challenge is more fun than winning. Which was my point

moriz · Sep 11, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

there's a difference between a challenge (odds stacked against you, but you can win) and something that's impossible (you simply cannot win).

again, you have demonstrate that you have zero knowledge of pvp mechanics, nor the mental capacity to understand them. please stop posting.

Yichi · Sep 11, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

Sure winning is fun but not if its ALL the time. A challenge is more fun than winning. Which was my point

So going into a match where you know youre going to lose because of your build and having absolutely no chance of success is your idea of a challenge?

Im so glad you have NOTHING to do with balance or high end PvP...

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

First of all if I give you a headache then dont read them Second I DO understand PvP.
Just because my opinion is different than yours doesnt make it wrong.
This is what I HATE about most people. If you dont agree with them then they are stupid dont understand are wrong etc etc.
Just because you think one thing doesnt make it right.
You people need to get off your little pedestals seriously.

This re-enforces my post. Firstoff you give serious PvP players a headache because you dont have a clue about playing PvP at any sort of resemblance of a serious level. Yes you have ideas and theories on PvP, the problem is that EVERY one of them are wrong and you dont understand that concept. There have been a few worthwhile people that have posted in here that actually know PvP matters, community, metagame, and playstyle that is going on in the current PvP scene. The rest of you are posting useless trash liek a 1v1 tournament or make polymock PvP or some bullshit about how you couldnt get into that r9+ pug because youre only r3 and think you deserve to play with any group forming in Tombs/HA.

Reality check. There will be some people who will understand PvP and be able to play it at a top level and be successful. There will be many many many more who fail at it. The ones that fail at it are usually the ones bitching, complaining, and ranting about elitesim or that we have too many skill balances or even the dumbshit idea that PvE balance is more important than PvP skillbalance. There have been several good posts from many players who do play PvP regularly and have a good knowledge of what they are talking about. Unfortunately there have been far too many posts from people who quite honestly have no reason to post there thoughts or ideas other than to try and make themselves look intelligent and like they have a clue, but turn out to be just some random bullshit that is either wrong, or based off of PvE gameplay.

Kool Pajamas · Sep 11, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Someone else said this but I agree that "3 2 1 spike" ruined pvp. The longer the game has gone on, the more spike builds that have come about. That plus a lack of skill balances. I would have liked to have seen more frequent balances. 4+ months of nothing sucked. Especially when those 4+ months were filled with the worst spikes we've ever seen in the game.

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

That is simply not true. Teams have run adrenal spike since the BWEs.