Curse

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 13, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Background:

In another thread titled PvP is slowly dying a discussion of skill balance came up where basically in summary everyone agreed that simply by nature of guild wars design the game can not be balanced 100% of the time. This is not saying that it doesnt need be balanced within reason, just simply that it will never be perfectly balanced. Because of this the potential to lose a battle by skill choice alone does and will continue to exist in the game. Although I think this potential is relatively small and that both teams have an equal opportunity to find themselves in either an advantaged or disadvantaged situation, it is large enough to warrant fixing. One balance just seems to leads to formation of new teams that require balancing and the cycle continues.

Possible Alternative Approach To Solution:

Incorporate portable AOE effects into GvG sort of like some of the stuff in AB.

Maybe there could be different flags that had a large AOE effect at the flagstand to benefit the team controlling it. Maybe there could be items that reduce damage or have a positive or negative effect on health or energy, reduce certain types of damage, blocking, movement speed, etc. when picked up and carried into an area.

How might this work:

It would require teams to recognize when by makeup of the team that they are facing or by the location that they are playing that they are disadvantaged and understand why they are disadvanted, and it would give them a way to change the situation to sort of equalize or possibly reverse the situation for a period of time.

Could this be taken advantage of:

possibly, other teams could use such effects to put them in an even more favorable situation.

Might there be ways to prevent it from being taken advantage of?

Possibly, their may be ways to limit or prevent some things from being used in ways that would be overpowered.

This is just a theoretical suggestion to a very complex problem and would require testing and alot of refinement. It is a different approach that could prove be helpful.

Also looking at the posts in the thread titled PvP is slowly dying will give more indepth look at the background of this suggestion. I do not think that skill balance is the only problem with the PvP world though, and there is alot of insightful information in that thread related to other possible ways to improve the PvP world in general.

Winstar · Sep 13, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

please no AB effects in GvG. The problem is not the setup of GvG matches itself, other than perhaps the the 18 min VoD, but too much passive defense and in gereral the AT system. The real damage was done a long time ago in the release of nightfall which ushered in a mass exodus of top players.

Chicken Ftw · Sep 13, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Current/recurring problems in PvP: Lack of skill balance, no championships, seasons that aren't fun to play, no real incentive to play (titles don't count), every time a skill/class is added to the game it screws with balance/mechanics (I'm looking at you, shadow stepping), certain guild halls give advantages to one side or the other... the list goes on. I'm not seeing where your suggestion addresses any of those, just adds a new, clunky mechanic to it all. Sorry, but from what I can tell, your "fix" would add a new problem, really.

Yichi · Sep 13, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

Incorporate portable AOE effects into GvG sort of like some of the stuff in AB.

Maybe there could be different flags that had a large AOE effect at the flagstand to benefit the team controlling it. Maybe there could be items that reduce damage or have a positive or negative effect on health or energy, reduce certain types of damage, blocking, movement speed, etc. when picked up and carried into an area.

This is possibly one of the absolute DUMBEST ideas that has come across to help PvP. If anyone logging in to Guildwars that wants to PvP to play AB, guess where they are going? Im sorry but anyone that wants to actually GvG, does not want to go into a match to play an Alliance Battle style of match.

ANET tried this on a couple maps with different effects and they were generally viewed as a failure. This would also simply because then it becomes a Build Wars situation again. This is the same thing as the hexes on jade isle discussion is that you're going to have teams that use that specific hall to do nothing but exploit the facts about that hall. This will not promote balanced play, this will not eliminate the build wars situation simply due to the fact that after your team that has no chance of competing in that match is forced to retreat and never gets an opportunity at those effects, it puts the other team at an even greater advantage.

Im sorry but based on your responses and ideas in the other thread and this one as well, please stop trying and let people with REAL knowledge of gvg provide much better input.

Vanquisher · Sep 13, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Please stop posting stuff like this.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 13, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

The real damage was done a long time ago in the release of nightfall which ushered in a mass exodus of top players.

Because they had already went through 6 months of bs playing with characters and power creeped skills from factions, that all they saw was a repeat of the prior. Now everyone complains of the ultra defensive builds, go figure.

Yichi · Sep 13, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Because they had already went through 6 months of bs playing with characters and power creeped skills from factions, that all they saw was a repeat of the prior. Now everyone complains of the ultra defensive builds, go figure.

Thats only because it went from one extreme to the other with no real viable middle ground.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 13, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Thats only because it went from one extreme to the other with no real viable middle ground.

Bingo. Thing is though, those extremes in the past went on for far too long, lets not have a repeat of the past!!!

IMO I'd have to say that we are much closer to having that middle ground, a few things need to be tried or addressed though

Vanquisher · Sep 13, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Block on 80% of attacks doesn't seem close to middle ground, nor does 90% of Guilds just counting down from 3 to 1 and having no variation in their play. Honestly it feels like it's October 2005 all over again.

Skuld · Sep 13, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

PvP needs more charr.

Faer · Sep 13, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Give all characters 90% chance to reduce damage taken to 0.

That'll fix PvP right up.

makosi · Sep 13, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Thinking outside the box like that was adventurous but I think simple balancing of skills is key. It's not an easy job but it must be done and Ensign drew up a vast list of proposals in early June [I think that was the date] that were welcomed by most users. Doing so requires the nerf stick and we all know how the community reacts to it.

Time for Anet to toughen up, pull their fingers out and weild flame retardent shields because it insights upset but is beneficial on the whole.

fenix · Sep 14, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

It's nice that people care enough to post their theories on what should be done to fix PvP. But please, have SOME experience in PvP first. And no, I don't mean AB and RA. If you want to write suggestions on how to fix GvG or HA, make sure you know HOW TO PLAY THEM.

D E C E P T I V E · Sep 14, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

I have played this game since realease and do have some PvP exp in GvG. I led a guild that was ranked in the top 400 at one time, and have been in other guilds that have been in the top 500 I know that is going to be a laugh to the pro pvp crowd, and I dont like to bring PvP exp up here because it seems like most people here are the hardcore pvpers that elevate themselves up to the highest level of the game and feel that they are the only ones whos opinions should be valid. Then the whole thing just seems to go downhill from there.

Fact is I myself dont feel that you really need all the exp that the pro pvp crowd will attest to in order to know something about this game. Just a note and a reality check to all those claiming that it takes so much time, dedication, and experience to really play this game with skill at its top level.
Naturally people will play better with experience but you dont need nearly the amount of experience thay most of the "pro" pvp crowd will attest to. Its really not that hard, and the major difference and where the reality check comes in is that to execute you skills perfectly in this video game called guild wars all that is required is that you understand what you are doing, what you are doing is what you should be doing in the overall scheme of your team strategy, and the you ckick a button. Its not as in real life games like football where it takes more than the click of a button to execute a skill such as perfectly passing a football 65 yards downfield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

(1) By it's very nature, Guild Wars can never be truly balanced. The goal then, should be to keep the game as close to balanced as possible - to have Chess pieces that look and feel different (skills, professions, weapons, character hairstyles etc) but maintain the same abilities and purpose as the piece they're modeled after (think attack, defend, utility and knights, bishops, pawns etc) so as to reward the players that use them more effectively within their strategy or counter-strategy (head-to-head, split, gank, push, collapse etc).

(2) Many good players in the game tend to exagerate or overestimate the skill it takes to be good at GW. To be fair, only a handful of people from past top guilds have ever pm'd me to rage about losing to unknown/low ranked/smurf-accused players like my old guild running non-gimmick builds.

But any intelligent gamer with the ability to process lots of information and a sense of awareness can be great at Guild Wars if they so desire (usually match/strat callers). Lacking these, any person with decent reflexes, decent computer, decent internet connection to the game servers, and decent ability to follow commands or work as part of a team can be good at this game (doing what caller[s] asks while knowing when/where to deviate or act on your own so no one has to babysit you)..

So in the end I say this suggestion, and even I myself admit in the OP that it is a kind of rough one, may not be a solution and may only possibly prove to useful in some ways, do not care what you think of it. The real experts of this game are its developers and I trust that if they see it and think its worthwile they will look into it. If not so be it. Im just trying to help. Of course you the effects suggeted couldnt be anywhere near something like block all attacks 90% of the time, that would be ridiculous.

Why would they only be interested in listening to those at the highest level of the game anyway. They are by far a miniscule minority. Also when it comes to PvP there is sort of a conflict of interests I think. They are interested in staying at the the top and of course arent going want to or admit that some changes might be needed if they think it might jeopordize their ability to stay there. I for one do not care about being at the top level and am just offering unbiased observation.

Tailoring a game too much to the hardcore crowd will only make a failing game or kill a thriving one as the vast majority of players are not hardcore. I will add nothing further.

Foe · Sep 14, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

just remove paragons from gw =)

fenix · Sep 14, 2007, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Fact is I myself dont feel that you really need all the exp that the pro pvp crowd will attest to in order to know something about this game. Just a note and a reality check to all those claiming that it takes so much time, dedication, and experience to really play this game with skill at its top level.

No, you really DO need experience. This is clearly the case, as you have been laughed at by everyone who is serious about PvP. Coincidence?

There is no way to just "do X and PvP is fixed". It's too late. Anet have ruined PvP, and won't be able to fix it aside from removing everything after Prophecies.

Sha Noran · Sep 14, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Here's outside the box: Split PvE and PvP into two entirely seperate games. Leave PvE where it is now. Roll back PvP to the night before the release of Factions. See who complains.

fenix · Sep 14, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Here's outside the box: Split PvE and PvP into two entirely seperate games. Leave PvE where it is now. Roll back PvP to the night before the release of Factions. See who complains.

WOW WHAT A DUMB UPDATE NOW I CANT CASUALLY PVP WITH NF SKILLS AND HAVE TO DO PVE ONLY WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH

PvPers would love it, as we wouldn't have to deal with crappy classes and such.