Curse

cellardweller · Sep 05, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Isn't it possible that the people who are enjoying the game, are playing instead of on this forum? Considering most of the time people come here only because they're frustrated with the game. You don't need to answer that, because none of us will really know the real numbers behind it.

We can make certain inferenences by the fact that there are more posts and complaint threads about the mandatory grind than every other change that I can recall. More than the AoE changes, more than damage reduction, more than soulreaping - The only thing that has come incited anywhere near this level of outrage is lootscaling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

It just seems like the idea you're trying to push, ie. lowering the standards and requirements so we don't have to work so hard for it...
goes against what the thing I like about guild wars, and if it went in your direction I wouldn't be pleased.

Before lightbringer titles, there wasn't a single in game advantage that you had to work for. If you wanted to "work" for something you were given cosmetic upgrades in the form of titles and flashy emotes.

VitisVinifera · Sep 05, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

good points cellar. We can't deny that as time goes on, anet is tying grind to advancement

it seems all new eotn titles are tied to character improvement, it shows how little original content there is

lord dragon · Sep 05, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

There are some good suggestions, but then there are some crazy stupid people out there that thinks they got the right idea, but if we listen to everybody, then the game wouldn't get very far either. (This is in no way directed at you, just a reason why you can't just take everybody's suggestion)

I agree with you that they are suggestions. But, when enough people complain about the same things, then the developer should, if they care anything about the customer, look at it and acknowledge that they are. Not listening to the majority in any business is going a direction that will put you out of it. Now, if you have a monopoly, you can do this. GW doesn't have that luxury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

As far as I'm concerned it still is a casual game, the endless rush to grind, the "timing of the quests" are all self-imposed deadlines. When they say it's a casual game play, they mean there's no imposed incentive to play or you'll lose $15 monthly fees. The game doesn't penalize you for going AWOL for a month. When you come back to play, everything's the same, you're not suddenly incapable of handling the environment or PvP becomes entirely out of your level range. This is how I percieve it at least.

Let me be a little clearer here. There are quests in this game, that you do not come into contact with a town until you have completed them. In the other 3 games, you had about 45 min to an hour of play to get to a town. Now, some take a few hours to complete, then, when done, you must complete the next one to get to a town. This was of very poor design compared to the other games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

It certainly shouldn't be a surprise to log on to a game after AWOLing for a month to realize many players have 15k armors, such system has been there since Prophecies. So really, nothing has changed.

I agree about the armors. I really don't care about the armors. They are ugly as sin, so there is no loss to me. If they had looked anything like the concept art, I would probably care. The way they are, there is no loss in not getting them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Couple of A+ students have passed the test, and the C-students couldn't make the hurdle because studying was too much "grind". They ask the teacher's to reduce the passing grade so that they too can pass. I don't see how this is different than how it is.

Because, as I have stated before, this is not school. GW is not trying to teach us anything. This is a product that is put out for the enjoyment of the player. If the player feels they got duped, like I have, then they have every right to complain until something is done. This is not the product they advertised and talked about in interviews with the press. This is not the product that anyone expected. This is not the product that a large portion of the population wanted. Let GW offer my money back, I would take it in a heartbeat and become quiet. Let them satify the customer. If enough people asked and got it, then GW would truly have an idea if anyone wanted to play this sub standard product.

I ordered one product, and recieved another in my mind.

The true way to fix this would be for those that are not happy to recieve a refund, and those that are, play it. I have a feeling that it would make for very sparsly populated areas in GWEN. We would have to see though.

Remember, if I bought WOW, I can cancel at any time. Could try it for 2 weeks to determine if it was for me before I commit. That is not offered in GW with this new game. The preview event was not enough time to see just how bad it was.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Before lightbringer titles, there wasn't a single in game advantage that you had to work for. If you wanted to "work" for something you were given cosmetic upgrades in the form of titles and flashy emotes.

I didn't go around to kill monsters specifically to raise ranks or boost my PvE skills, I went around killing monsters because I wanted to explore mountains and caves, because that's just what I enjoy. It just turns out there was an added bonus for me that my PvE skills are getting better for every enemy I kill... nice. That's just what it felt like for me. Without pursuing it directly, it just came to me as a reward for my progress... do you call that a grind?

Unlike Sunspear points, where they lock quests from you to remind you that you're still "under achieved", EotN didn't do this (not with quests and skills at least). So I can't accept PvE skills as something that should overshadow the importance of Primary quests and missions.

cellardweller · Sep 05, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I didn't go around to kill monsters specifically to raise ranks or boost my PvE skills, I went around killing monsters because I wanted to explore mountains and caves, because that's just what I enjoy. It just turns out there was an added bonus for me that my PvE skills are getting better for every enemy I kill... nice. That's just what it felt like for me. Without pursuing it directly, it just came to me as a reward for my progress... do you call that a grind?

Unlike Sunspear points, where they lock quests from you to remind you that you're still "under achieved", EotN didn't do this (not with quests and skills at least). So I can't accept PvE skills as something that should overshadow the importance of Primary quests and missions.

How close did exploring get you to the 200k faction required to get full use of the pve skills?

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

I agree with you that they are suggestions. But, when enough people complain about the same things, then the developer should, if they care anything about the customer, look at it and acknowledge that they are. Not listening to the majority in any business is going a direction that will put you out of it. Now, if you have a monopoly, you can do this. GW doesn't have that luxury.

If they haven't been listening, you would think they'd be out of business by now... after over 2 years. Either the complaints are not enough, or someone keeps going back to the game they hate to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

Let me be a little clearer here. There are quests in this game, that you do not come into contact with a town until you have completed them. In the other 3 games, you had about 45 min to an hour of play to get to a town. Now, some take a few hours to complete, then, when done, you must complete the next one to get to a town. This was of very poor design compared to the other games.

Like how WoW and Lineage 2 has every town unlocked, but you have to run for hours to get to anywhere? I don't see how that is better than point-click towns that reveal stories. It certainly wouldn't make sense that someone can just point-click to the last mission in the game at the beginning. The story is there to buffer you until you're ready and prepared for the final fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

I agree about the armors. I really don't care about the armors. They are ugly as sin, so there is no loss to me. If they had looked anything like the concept art, I would probably care. The way they are, there is no loss in not getting them.

Sounds like a casual way to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

Because, as I have stated before, this is not school. GW is not trying to teach us anything.

The example was to show that if the C- students got their way, it reduces the drive for A+ students to achieve the next time around. For example, if ranks are reduced, those people who've tried harder, got farther, would only learn that maybe they shouldn't try so hard, and when the next expansion comes around. Everything becomes easier, faster, more instant, and boredom kicks in much quicker. The sacrifice of these veteran players and grindfreaks so that new players can enjoy the game.

It's one or the other, and I can't imagine how to please them both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

This is a product that is put out for the enjoyment of the player. If the player feels they got duped, like I have, then they have every right to complain until something is done. This is not the product they advertised and talked about in interviews with the press. This is not the product that anyone expected. This is not the product that a large portion of the population wanted. Let GW offer my money back, I would take it in a heartbeat and become quiet. Let them satify the customer. If enough people asked and got it, then GW would truly have an idea if anyone wanted to play this sub standard product.

I ordered one product, and recieved another in my mind.

The true way to fix this would be for those that are not happy to recieve a refund, and those that are, play it. I have a feeling that it would make for very sparsly populated areas in GWEN. We would have to see though.

I think suggestions to improve a game instead of destroying it would be better. If you really think there's something wrong, I think there are more direct methods to address them... and these forums aren't one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

Remember, if I bought WOW, I can cancel at any time. Could try it for 2 weeks to determine if it was for me before I commit. That is not offered in GW with this new game. The preview event was not enough time to see just how bad it was.

Guild Wars have trial accounts as well. I tried it, I loved it, I bought it. WoW, won't refund the purchase of their CD as well, nor the monthly fees.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

How close did exploring get you to the 200k faction required to get full use of the pve skills?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

...Without pursuing it directly, it just came to me as a reward for my progress...

I got to rank 5, it shows how much I've done. When I've done enough, maybe one day it'll show rank 10. Until then, I'm just going to continue to have fun.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 05, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Everyone agree that ANet announced GWEN would allow character development beyond level 20?

If you actually stop and think about it, gaining ranks in each of the 4 races/factions for GWEN is just that, and really, it's nothing different than going from level 1 to level 20 in Prophecies. And unless you were trotted off to Droknar Forge from Beacon's Perch, this process was reasonably slow.

This isn't any more grind than gaining your last 15 skill points to get your character to 200 skill points. And unless I'm mistaken, one of the hottest debated topics here at Guru has been...why is there a level cap? Why does my character suddenly stop getting better? Well, for those who asked (and many did), here's your temporary solution until GW2 is released. As you gain levels in the new factions, your abilities for them improve, just like you did as a monk going from level 10 to 20.

I mean, if you started in Prophecies, and then moved on to Factions and eventually Nightfall, wasn't the only real way to improve your character to reach the next outpost/town and buy what new skills were available, and eventually run out and cap some new elites? I think GWEN is great in that it gives characters several avenues to actually develope, rather than spend a day getting everything all at once - to do what? Complain that the process of development was nothing more than Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall reduxed?

Take your time, enjoy yourself - grind is in the hands of the creator, and that's you, if you so choose.

Master Ketsu · Sep 05, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Grind is really only bad if its required.

None of the new titles are required in PvP. And good players can still play without the pve skills.

None of the armor is significantly better then old armor in any way. Its just vanity.

I can see problems with grinding...but only when its mandatory. Non-mandatory grind is just their to give players something to do when everything else is done. Nothing really wrong with it.

lord dragon · Sep 05, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I think suggestions to improve a game instead of destroying it would be better. If you really think there's something wrong, I think there are more direct methods to address them... and these forums aren't one of them.

How is asking for your money back destroying the game?

As for these forums, this is the perfect place. GW does not have forums of thier own that I am aware of but does monitor this one. Best way for me to communicate is to post here so they know and can read how dissatisfied I am.

Lady Lozza · Sep 05, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Not trying to be delibrately obtuse or anything, but what is it that people want:

1) No rewards for getting titles.
You've been good, have a cookie.

OR

2) No incentives for persueing titles?
Here's a carrot, now chase.

Or both of the above, because it seems to me that you want to remove both carrot and cookies.

Titles in themselves are not rewards for the long-term (mature) player. Titles as the only reward only appeal to those who want an ego trip, the "im uber-1337 so-stfu-n00b" players. While there are plenty of these around, there are also plenty of people who sit at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Those who started playing at the beginning prophecies spent around 6 months with nothing much to do. What do you do when you have nothing much to do? Find stuff to do! There were people who practically had Tyrian explorer titles the moment Factions came out. People had protector titles, because clearing the fog, doing all the bonuses, capping all skills was "something to do" that actually involved playing the game. Others chose to farm their rears off to afford expensive armour. Along come titles. Sure they are nice and all - but a lot of players couldn't care less about KoaBD. Just like most PvE players couldn't care less about how much faction their alliance has, couldn't care less whether or not they had a town, ESPECIALLY when they could use their hard earned faction to fund their armour. So many people went from rank 0 faction to rank 3 or 4 the weekend the faction was changed because all of the sudden getting amber gave them points to the title and while they were at it there were new skills they could ALSO purchase with faction. People FARMED the weekend of double faction to "buy" the new skills, but I don't see too many people using them.

My point is this:
Remove the carrot and people stop chasing. Remove the cookies and people stop striving. In short those who have finished the game have nothing left to do because simply getting a title IS NOT ENOUGH for a good proportion of the GW population.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

How is asking for your money back destroying the game?

As for these forums, this is the perfect place. GW does not have forums of thier own that I am aware of but does monitor this one. Best way for me to communicate is to post here so they know and can read how dissatisfied I am.

while you seem to know suggestions to save it, you suggest that everyone just pick up their refunds and leave it to rot...

cellardweller · Sep 05, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

My point is this:
Remove the carrot and people stop chasing. Remove the cookies and people stop striving. In short those who have finished the game have nothing left to do because simply getting a title IS NOT ENOUGH for a good proportion of the GW population.

Goodness forbid you might do something because you enjoy it.

arcanemacabre · Sep 05, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Goodness forbid you might do something because you enjoy it.

Let's face it, cellar, we are a dying breed of video gamers. People want their rewards at the end of their race. Many feel it's not the journey anymore, but the destination. Well, I can't deny that it is nice to be rewarded, and have something to shoot for, but I can deny that being the whole reason I play a video game - it's all about the fun you have up to that reward.

To each their own. It just sucks when it means ruining some people's fun just to make it more fun for others.

Lady Lozza · Sep 05, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Goodness forbid you might do something because you enjoy it.

Cellar, you misunderstand me completely.

I enjoy GW. I really do. I enjoy playing with friends. But what happens when you have done everything 5 times, you've helped your friends do everything on all their characters, you've helped randoms do a lot of things. There is only so long before the game becomes boring simply because you've done and seen it all not once, but as much as hundreds of times? What happens when all the friends you formed stop playing because they are bored? For me, friends keep me playing. I enjoy the game, but I enjoy the social aspect of it so much more. I don't have many titles. Most of my titles are very boring. I've got those titles by help others. To me titles mean absolutely nothing. But what is a game that has nothing to do? If you've cleared all the maps, done all the quests, found all the pretty places, and have screenies to prove it, there is nothing left to enjoy that doesn't invoke the "done it all before at least 10 times *yawn*" sensation. In a very literal sense this IS the definition of grind.

The rewards and incentives for titles as they stand would not be enough to keep me playing if all my friends decided they had had enough. However there is a proportion of the population who will always wonder - what would my character be like if I could us X skill maxed in my build. For Anet this is a GOOD marketing strategy to keep people playing in the game until GW2 comes out. Sure it isn't going to net everyone, but it will net some. Ironically it would be MORE of an incentive to make the skills incredibly overpowered at maximum rank because RPG players are always wanted to build an uber character, they want to be able to do things more easily. Those who played Oblivion on release will remember the huge spat players had when they discovered that foes levelled up with them. That the main questline became harder the more they progressed their character. Players didn't want this - they wanted to grind and then blitz the storyline.

All I see you asking for is uber-skills with no grind, thereby allowing players to play the game in one day and forget about it the next. This isn't sensible given that Anet will want to keep players interested until the sequel. This also isn't sensible give that - as you have already accused me of - people play the game because it is unknown, and when they are done the game is done too. Why do you think 2nd hand game trading has become fairly popular? Most people don't play through games more than once. Many GW players have played through 10+ times and are still finding new things to do. Take new things away from them, and they will find other games to play.

lord dragon · Sep 05, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

while you seem to know suggestions to save it, you suggest that everyone just pick up their refunds and leave it to rot...

As you so stated before, you like the game as it is. My point being, that as it is, it is worthless to a lot of us. Hence, the ones that like it can pay for it, and for the rest of us, a refund as the game is not close to what was promised during the hype.

freekedoutfish · Sep 05, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artkin

complete the primary missions....get a crappy looking green....GRIND for titles....need I say more...took me 12 hours

The titles DO NOT REQUIRE GRIND... you earn points from quests, dungeons, bounty and mini games. FGS there are numberious ways to make points.

It took me one day to get to rank 4 vanguard just doing quests and dungeons so grow up! Doing a tiny bit of farming to get an extra 10k to rank 5 is nothing compared to other titles like SS and LB.

If you cant be bothered to do quest and dungeons to earn points then why in gods name are you playing an RPG? It honestly astounds me when people winge about grind in an MMO.... what MMO or RPG does not have grind in it?

Farming is grind, killing to collect materials is grind, farming elite skills is grind, exploring is grind, earning faction points is grind and most titles are gring. Id love to see you play WoW because within 2 minutes youl be winging about the 100 times as much grind in that.

Effendi Westland · Sep 05, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

^lol

The titles do require grind mate, no way around it. Anything you do which is not needed for completion of GW:EN but just serves the purpose of raising the title is grind. Some like it, many do not.

And if you want to compare it to SS and LB, the needed points for max rank are way more then SS and LB... can you say Grindfest?

freekedoutfish · Sep 05, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

^lol

The titles do require grind mate, no way around it. Anything you do which is not needed for completion of GW:EN but just serves the purpose of raising the title is grind. Some like it, many do not.

And if you want to compare it to SS and LB, the needed points for max rank are way more then SS and LB... can you say Grindfest?

Did you miss the HUGE bit where I said you can reach rank 4 by just doing quests, dungeons and mini games?

That IS part of the completion of GWEN!!!!!!!!!!!

But boohoo if you need to earn another tiny 10k points from a bit of bounty hunting. Your talking maybe 2 or 3 runs! OMG at how hard that is to do. You all behave like GRIND never existing in GWs until GWEN came out! well news flash it did and it always will.. This is an RPG/MMO and they inherantly have grind. Go play something else if you dont like it.

Gattocheese · Sep 05, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

They need grind in GWEN.

Face it, GWEN is the shortest of them all. With no end game content as they promised. So how do they expect everyone to stay around for a year and a half until GW2 comes out? I strive to better my character with armor, weapons, ect.. Now the armor and weapons in GWEN are all basically crap, what is there for me except to have beaten the game and complete all the dungeons? Long hours of grinding is gonna be the only thing keeping people playing this lousy expansion for the rest of the time. Face it, you explored, you conquered, now what? You cant better your character, so grind away...........