Curse

Ctb · Sep 06, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Furthermore, if you really don't care about items (as some of you have said), then the fact that the crafters won't talk to you below a certain rank doesn't affect you at all.

Except that it's content we paid for anyway...

Quote:

but I don't think a few extra points of damage or a few seconds more duration is actually significant enough to warrant the amount of crying it has generated.

Except that it's content we paid for anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

People really are being pathetic to suggest that it requires grind to reach rank 5 and get access to armor and weapons.

And the armors being available at rank 5 has what to do with the huge number of new skills that are tied to titles?

Quote:

You can tell its the people who either havent played the game properly or havent even tried.

Ah, yes, the GWG promise. If somebody doesn't play the way you do, they're Doing It Wrong. I might suggest that you should try setting the game down and going outside, as an alternative take on your approach to the game as stated earlier in your post.

Quote:

It is not grind to earn points from playing the storyline.

There is no storyline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Where were these complaints when Factions came out?

What are you talking about? The release of Factions caused even more consternation than GWEN has so far, and there were fewer people on the forums at the time. In fact, Factions is still a sore spot with a lot of people. I hated it so much and felt so ripped off by the abrupt shift in focus that Factions brought on that I eventually lost interest in the game completely for a good eight or nine months, and I refused to buy Nightfall for some time because I was afraid I'd get ripped off again.

Factions generated a HUGE backlash from a lot of people.

Quote:

Guild Wars has always had Grind, whether you define Grind as clearing an area for a reward, or getting Faction to move on in the campaign, or going on infusion runs!

You apparently don't know what grind is. Completing relevant quests to advance a story line is not grind by any reasonable definition.

Quote:

they are effective at rank 1

So is Sever Artery, but it's nothing compared to a rank of 9 in swordsmanship, what's your point?

Quote:

GWEN satisfies the needs of both the casual and hardcore player.

No, it doesn't. That's why there's an argument over it..

Well, actually, I'm complaining because GWEN is "okay", but hardly worth the $40 price tag.

freekedoutfish · Sep 06, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

And the armors being available at rank 5 has what to do with the huge number of new skills that are tied to titles?

You dont need those skills to complete GWEN at all. I havent used them! Again Anet is not forcing you to use these skills at all, its purely optionall.

You are not under any disadvantage to not have them or use them. Just as your not if you dont get the armor. Its all optinal, and your not forced to increase these ranks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Ah, yes, the GWG promise. If somebody doesn't play the way you do, they're Doing It Wrong. I might suggest that you should try setting the game down and going outside, as an alternative take on your approach to the game as stated earlier in your post.

Well if peopl arent doing somet wrong, then why are so many ppl having issues increasing rank. Im not and ive managed rank 4 on nearly all of them from just doing quests and dungeons ONCE.

earning another 10k wont take any effort. So explain to me why other ppl are having issues if their playing correctly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

There is no storyline.

Oh grow up, that is a moronic thing to say and you know it! It that your counter arguement against actually playing the quest and dungeons to get reputation?

You just dont like the storyline so you dont so that means there isnt one?

Compared to the need for points in other campaings, GWEN is far easier and nicer on the player! Your not forced to earn the points, your not required to have the points.

The points are purely for unlocking little extras to use if you choose to and want to and they are not necessities. You go into GWEN with max armor, max weapons and a wide selection of existing skills.

Anything new that GWEN gives you is just a nice touch, something new to own and wear and maybe use. But none of it is necessity and you just have to be patient to earn the points from playing the game, to then later unlock stuff.

Is that realy too much to ask to just play the game, earn the points and then get stuff?

Im walking evidence that earning points is not hard and can be done very easily. Your just being argoant and stubborn to not believe me and i can only conclude u havent even tried to do quests.

TabascoSauce · Sep 06, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I'm reading this thread through again, and it looks like the posters who are supportive of ANet and grind in GW:EN are ready and willing to talk about anything except the issue being raised - that grind in Guild Wars, particularly including GW:EN, is increasingly rewarded with access to superpowerful skills.

Lets put it back on track.

The most egregious example that I know of is in Factions, with "Save Yourselves!", a warrior skill that requires 8 adrenaline that adds +100 armor to all party members for 3 to 6 seconds.

Someone before me mentioned that "what, its only a few more seconds". In this case, that is doubling the duration of +100 armor. That is not a trivial difference.

These are PvE skills, so the fact that there is no competitiveness in PvE is brought up all the time, which is patently false. If there was no competitiveness, then anyone would be welcome into PUGs, right? If we were not competitive, then why have uber skills that require grind grind and grind? Why even make these skills in the first place? The fact that they exist shows that certain "concerned fans" feel entitled to more than just a label for their efforts. Those fans are posting in here because they feel... entitled?

Set the wayback machine.

The original premise of the game was simple - you get to level 20 quickly, max out, and compete on player skill and ingenuity. Call it a levelling of the field, so that other games can have their 70 levels of power-curve to appeal to those type of power-gamers. That was the premise, and promise. A different game for a different gamer.

As we all know, the idea behind the game was that players go through the PvE storyline, and then graduate to PvP where they would stay. But fortunately or unfortunately, the majority of players stayed in PvE and completely disregarded PvP. They kept playing, and looking for rewards for their playing, which did not exist in the quantity and quality that they are today. No super skills, no extra stuff - just little tags that you can attach to your name to show that you have gone the extra mile.

But then came the entitlement grinders. "Waaaah, I have put 4 thousand, six hundred, and seventy-two hours of my life into this game, and I think I should have an advantage over those who only have 800 hours!"

That meant that the tags needed to have a bite, to satisfy their little egos and allow them to have a qualitative difference over players with lives, or families, or jobs.

You entitlement junkies are supporting this premise, and for some reason I find that all your arguments are hollow to me - considering that I was at the Prophecies BWE, I knew the game then, and I know the game now. It is not quite the same game.

There is nothing wrong with having titles to show in-game accomplishments. Having, no make that needing super-powerful skills tied to them breaks the original premise of the game. I see the occasional new player post a question about raising the max level in these forums, and they are informed that this is not going to happen and go play WoW kthxbye. So, why was that again?

It you find that the entitlement grind and rewards suits your game play style, then kudos to you, but you can forget trying to convince me that it is in my best interests to support the game going to an entitlement grind paradigm. I bought the game based on the fact that the PC magazine interviews before Prophecies said "No Grind!". There are games that have power curves in abundance, and as time goes on GW is heading that way. That may be your type of game, but it is not mine. I am surprised that you are trying and trying to change this game to fit into your entitlement filled world, as opposed to going to a game that already has your playing style preferences!

So remember, who is asking for a tougher game? Hard Mode? Maybe....the people with the +100 armor skill?

They are exactly the players who do not need the help. Giving them a super powerful skill is also sheer vanity, that has an in-game effect as opposed to being just cosmetic.

PvE is not competitive? Then you get cracking using that +100 armor to help out the noobs who really need help getting past those tough missions, you altruistic guys and gals. Oh, you haven't the time to do charity cases and boot players who ping bad builds? Yeah. GG. Glad to know you think the game is all "My Little Pony" non-competitive.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Gattocheese · Sep 06, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

GWEN...new title GRIND!

Yeah, how else do you think Anet is going to keep you playing Guild Wars for a year and a half. There is literally no content in the game that they promised. So they do whats easy for them and make massive grinds so people have something to do. I personally would of liked to grind for armor or weapons if they were not crappy reskins. I am not gonna grind for meaningless titles. I believe alot of people are dissappointed in this expansion, and people will stop playing guild wars sooner than later. Anet doesnt care because they got our money already.

Burst Cancel · Sep 06, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Except that it's content we paid for anyway...

Except that it's content we paid for anyway...

What's your point? That all content in the game should be available without grind? What about weapon skins that cost 100k+XX ecto? Or Fissure armor? Or titles? You paid for all of that content, but you have to grind for it.

The fact that you "paid for content" does not, in any way, imply that said content must be given to you unconditionally. It would be more accurate to say that you paid for access to content, and certainly, GW has lived up to its end of the bargain in that regard. It's not as though other players are getting things for free that you are required to grind for.

In short, your thinking is entirely without merit.

freekedoutfish · Sep 06, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I have to disagree on this idea that the original premise of GWs was to play the storyline, complete pve and then move onto pvp.

Ive played this game from the start and i played with the full intention of doing pve and never setting foot into pvp. I dont like it and I knew that from the start.

But you have also missed the major point that all these title connected skills are optional and only there to add a bit more interest to the gameplay.

You can complete all 3 campaigns and the expansion without using SS, LB, Luxon/Kuzack or GWEN pve only skills. They dont give any advantage or make the game easier or harder.

Ive never used any of them and I doubt I will (except LB gaze obviously).

You also fail to mention that these pve skills tend to be overpowered and you dont need to max the title out to get huge benefits from them.

I am only on rank 7 Norn and I already gain a +85 health bonus when I display it. That isnt maxed out, but its damn nice.

I dont love the idea of Anet adding all these title connected pve only skills, because its unrealistic that I will ever max the luxon/kuzack or GWEN race titles, and I seriously doubt I will ever get the full benefit.

But do I sit here crying and winging?

No, because I have no intention of using them. Ive managed 2 years without them, so... boohoo!

As for the grind to get armor, because its connected to the GWEN titles and requires rank 5. In factions you have to have more faction on the side whos armor you want, and you have to earn faction to trade it rare materials. In Nightfall you are expected to farm or trade for dozens of rare materials for vabbian armor. FOW armor requires you either spend hours farming rare materials or you trade huge amounts of farmed gold for them.

That to me would equate to factions, vabbian and FOW armor being a grind.

Yet do you see me complaining?

No! My ranger actually owns luxon armor and my elemental has vabbian armor. It took me ages to get the materials and I am in no way rich, but it looked nice.

But I have no intention of getting any future characters luxon or vabbian armor because it is a grind. I also have no intention of ever getting any characters FOW armor because its an even greater grind.

Do I make a thread complaining about that? Do I start a fuss complaining I want luxon, vabbian and FOW armor made easier to aquire because I feel its a grind to get the materials?

No.. because im realistic that I wont ever get it, and I do actually like alot of those armor sets.

I currently own Norn armor because during the preview event I did grind to rank 7 when that was required. But after playing the actual storyline for 3 days I am now on rank 4 for all the others. I also happen to live the vanguard ele armor and I would love to get it and I only need another 10k points.

But ive decided not to because I would also need materials and gold. Im realistic I wont get it.

I also notice how no one complains about the prestigage armor requiring 250 of each materials. I spent 2 days standing in an outpost in GWEN buying Superb Char Carvings for 100g to get my ninja mask and I love it and its dyed white.

But I also love the destroyer gloves, but I have no way of making the 250k needed to buy all 250 cores needed. I could farm them, but I would consider that grind.

So why is no one complaining about having to grind and farm 250 cores for destroyer gloves? why is no one complaining that they will cost around 250k to buy them if you trade?

250k to buy 250 cores is well out of reach of ALOT of players (average price being 1k from what I see), including me. I dont have the amount of gold, and I think its a grind to be expected to farm that gold or trade that gold or farm those cores.

But do I complain? No. I realistic that I wont get them as are most other poor or mid-way players.

But people complain about the armor?

So from what I understand....

...players are willing to spend hours either farming destroyer cores or trading for them, but their not willing to spend hours earning 10k more points to reach rank 5 (because you can reach rank 4 doing quests)?

Does that seem hypercrital and make it very obvious that the vast number of people who complaining about this, are the rich players who are used to just walking over to a crafter and getting what they want without any effort!

If people are willing to farm 250 materials for prestiage armor, or ectos and shards for FOW, or rubies for vabbian or shards for Luxon or Kuzack....

...then how is that any different to farming reputation points?

This isnt people complaining about grind in general. This is people complaining about grind, when it doesnt suit them and they cant get around it.

They cant get around this grind because you cany buy it, unlike shards and rubies and ectos and cores!

If you truly want this game to be equal and fair and have everything within reach of both the casual AND the hardcore players, then you need to make armor like FOW and prestiage easily within reach of both casual and hardcore players.

Your casual player wont get FOW armor or destroyer gloves, because they require hours of farming or trading for rare materials and large amounts of gold.

Yet I dont see anyone complaining about how FOW armor or prestige armor is unfair and out of reach of the casual gamers!

You cant talk about grind being a bad thing in GuildWars, when your all willing to sit back and accept its ok to have grind in other aspects of the game.

If you accept grind is ok for...

FOW armor,
Vabbian armor,
Luxon/Kuzack armor,
prestiage armor,
Elite hero armor,
DOA hero armor,
DOA weapons and
Exclusive content in elite zones,
Elite zones in general,
Needing certain sunspear to continue in NF,
Needing 10k luxon and kuzack to continue in Factions,
Gold farming in general,
Material farming in general
and others.

...then you are being a complete hypercrit by complaing about the need for rank 5 for armor, weapons and consumable in GWEN.

I expect alot of players who are complaining about this own FOW armor, or you dont mind some of those things listed above. You cant complain about grind when it suits you, and still accept it and ignore it elsewhere.

As for this idea that because you paid for GWEN you should get armor straight away...

1) There was a preview weekend. If you were daft enough to order the game BEFORE you tried it then that is your own fault.

2) You didnt buy JUST the armor. You bought the ENTIRE game and its mechanics, including the storyline which you PAID to play through. If you then get it home and complain that you have to actually play the story and earn points to get armor, you havent got a leg to stand on.

You had an opportunity to "try before you buy", and you knowingly bought the game knowing it contained a story that had to be played out in order to get access to different areas and equipment. You cant ask for a refund just because you dont like how those aspects are unlocked.

Did you give input to the design process?
Are you on the Anet job roster and are you paid a salary by Anet?
Did you personally ask them to make sure all armor didnt require ranks before it was released?
Did someone miss-lead you into thinking the armor system was different before you bought GWEN?
Did Anet state it was going to be different?

You bought that game knowing it contained more then just new armor and weapons, and you have to put up with that! You cant complain just because it isnt how you wanted it.

TabascoSauce · Sep 07, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I'm sorry bro, but you do are pointing out positions in what I am saying that just do not exist. Check this out:

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Yet I dont see anyone complaining about how FOW armor or prestige armor is unfair and out of reach of the casual gamers!

I am looking back through my post, and I see no mention of armor at all. Whoops, you mean that +100 armor bonus party-wide from "save yourselves!"? That is not armor, that is a skill. That skill is tied to a title. That title is just grind.

I'm gonna say it again.

My post focused on skills tying to titles. Titles that are just grind. That means skills are tied to grind.

I object to that idea. It goes against the original spirit of the game.

Remember that level 20 max thing? That's the proof. No grind.

I made the case that entitlement junkies were crying in their milk about how they spent 4,872 hours in the game and felt entitled.

Grinding for little tag titles, or vanity armor, is fine as far as I am concerned. The big difference is that those vanity armors and titles have no in-game effect.

Forget about vanity armor. There is a trend going on, as time goes by, more and more skills, are tied to titles, that are entirely grind based. If this trent continues, then GW2 will be full of them, and it will not be my game. That's fact.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

cataphract · Sep 07, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anoyying Spirit

Guildwars doesnt even come close to grinding you can get titles up easy i have 7 20s max all char slots max and they take a day if that each to get to 20 you want a grinding game go play maplestory or ragnarock then you will experience countless hours of doing repetative tasks which dont really get you anywhere

I'd QFT this if I knew what it's supposed to mean.

freekedoutfish · Sep 07, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I am looking back through my post, and I see no mention of armor at all. Whoops, you mean that +100 armor bonus party-wide from "save yourselves!"? That is not armor, that is a skill. That skill is tied to a title. That title is just grind.

Ok lets talk about the titles and how their connected to the pve only skills! Even though I have already somewhere.

Do you need these skills to complete any of the 3 campaigns or GWEN?

Answer = no!

Ive completed GWEN without using any of those fancy pve only skills.

These pve only skills are not necessities, you dont need them or need to use them. They are no different to armor or mini-pets as being something you collect and can choose to use, to make your game play a bit more fun and interesting.

But you dont have to have them or use them. And even if your title is a low rank, these skills are still quite effective. My Norn rank is 7 and that gives me +85 health, and at rank 5 you get around +70 health. That is quite impressive and not even maxed.

Now if (for some reason) you feel you want these pve only skills to be 100% effective, you can then choose to grind those titles to max beyond what is achievable from quests and dungeons.

But if you dont choose to do that, you are disadvantaged at all. Having your pve only skills maxed out, wont make you any better then they other player. It wont give you an edge.

If you havent noticed, most of the pve only skills basically do what other profession based skills do. It just means you can combine a healing pve only skill without having to have monk as either secondary or primary.

They do pretty much the same thing as existing skills, but their slightly more overpowered.

Atleast Anet isnt forcing you to use these like it did the LBs gaze.

Anet has been very user friendly with GWEN by not forcing you to do or choose anything ingame. There is no pressure to use any of the pve only skills or to increase any ranks.

You dont need any of those to complete the game or do the quests and dungeons. Its a very open ended game full of choices and options. Options that might make your gameplay more fun and interesting, but they wont give you an edge or an advantage.

Stop winging about the titles in GWEN being a grind because your not being forced to grind them. Its not like in factions where you need a set amount to proceed or in NF where you need a set SS level to continue.

You could ONLY complain if Anet was forcing you to grind these titles, but their not! End of story!

The pve only skills, the armor, the weapons and the consumables are all just nice little extras that you can unlock or improve with a higher rank. Their not necessities that you need for the game. They are just there to make the game more interesting if you want them too. They help mix things up and make it more fun.

But you dont need high ranks or maxed titles to take advantage of them, and again reaching rank 5 is no stretch to do.

No one is forcing this one you, and if you take this game that seriously that you need to have 100% effective skills, then you need to get a reality check. Its just a game and you dont need to own ever skill, every armor, every weapon and have all your skills do 100% dmg or what not.

The other major factor is this...

...you had the chance to try the game before you bought it. You also knew from the pve only skills in factions and NF how the system would work. You knew the pve only skill would be title connected. We had all ready the previews and knew how it all works.

Also did Anet state the armor would work differently? did they promise it would be the same mechanism as in propherices? No!

I notice no one complained when they changed the armor mechanism in factions and it required you to kill the end boss everytime to get access. I didnt love that at first, but I got used to it.

Things change, but Anet hasnt made it that hard to unlock things and they have made these skills very effective even at low ranks. Stop complainging about stuff you knew was going to happen. Why did you buy the game when you knew it would work this way!!!

freekedoutfish · Sep 07, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

I'd QFT this if I knew what it's supposed to mean.

I think what he was trying to say is go play an alternative MMO/RPG online and you will soon see that by comparison GWs have very little grind. Any and all grind in GWs is mostly optional and not required to continue in the storyline and to complete the game.

The only thing that could be considered a necessery grind in GWs is making the gold and materials for armor and weapons.

Other then that, there is no grind that could be considered necessery!

Grind like farming, maxing titles, exploration, iding items and opened chests are all optional and its your choice to do that. For the most part Anet does not force you to do those things and you can quite easily progess and survive in GWs without doing them.

Maxing titles and collecting more armor after you have a max set, is nothing more then luxary and something to do in your spare time. You might get small benefits from maxing certain titles (like luck or effecting pve only skills), but nothing that will give any huge advantage to the game.

Even at low ranks, most pve only skills are still quite effect and over-powered!

Basically there is very little grind in GWs that could be considered a necessity to playing the game. Any grind that does exist is purely optional and something extra to do outside of the normal storyline and quests and so on.

This is why its just daft that people complain about grind in GWs because you dont have to grind anything to progress.

Its not spending hours in WoW mining materials or fishing to craft a weapon or make clothes or make food. Its not like in WoW where you cant continue the game unless you level up high end to kill certain creatures, so you do nothing but spend days killing over and over again till your high enough.

GWs is far better and friendly a game for leveling up, and giving us weapons and armor and all the necessities to continue and complete the game. Anything outside of that is just optional and your not forced to do it.

TabascoSauce · Sep 07, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But if you dont choose to do that, you are disadvantaged at all. Having your pve only skills maxed out, wont make you any better then they other player. It wont give you an edge.

+100 armor party wide. Nope, no better.

No edge there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You could ONLY complain if Anet was forcing you to grind these titles, but their not! End of story!

There is a trend going on, as time goes by, more and more skills, are tied to titles, that are entirely grind based. If this trend continues, then GW2 will be full of them, and it will not be my game. I do not want that to happen. I am against this trend. There is no "end of story", I'd think I'd like to see an "end of grind-based titles that have overpowered skills". What part of "bad trend" are you unclear on?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

freekedoutfish · Sep 07, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

+100 armor party wide. Nope, no better.

No edge there.

There is a trend going on, as time goes by, more and more skills, are tied to titles, that are entirely grind based. If this trend continues, then GW2 will be full of them, and it will not be my game. I do not want that to happen. I am against this trend. There is no "end of story", I'd think I'd like to see an "end of grind-based titles that have overpowered skills". What part of "bad trend" are you unclear on?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

The only added the pve only skills because of the arguement about nerfing all skills to benefit pvp. I serously dought that GW2 will be extensively all pve only skills that are connected to titles.

Maybe a small handfull, but not most.

As for the existing pve skills, yes it would be nice to have 100+ health all team wide. But do you need that skill to complete GWEN? nope!

Just make sure you have decent monks and you dont need these things. My entire point is that its about choice. There really isnt alot in GWs that Anet forces you to do outside of quests, missions and dungeons.

Most of the stuff that people here have equated to grind are all optional aspects of the game. As I say... Anet isnt forcing you to use these pve only skills, and aside from the 10k requirement in factions and the rank1 in SS, Anet hasnt forced you to grind anything.

It just astounds me that people complain like their being forced into increasing these ranks and grinding these points. They do really sound like kids in the school playground being forced to do their homework.

Or a kid in a store complaining he wants sweets, but his mother is saying he cant unless he eats his dinner first. It really sounds that pathetic to me and im sorry that it does.

Your all complaining about increasing ranks to either unlock or improve completely optional aspects of the game. As I said in an earlier post...

...no ones complaining you need 250 cores for destroyer gloves, and that seems rather excessive to me considering to buy that many will require 250k atleast (going by current costs). Or some major farming grind, which I dont personally enjoy and that would be my idea of grind.

That puts them out of range of most players, except the rich. Yet you dont see anyone complaining and you would expect the poorer groups to do so! I think that shows that its the rich players who complain more then anyone. Like a spoilt brat in a store who wants sweets and cant have them.

Etta · Sep 07, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

If you don't like the trend, don't follow it. If you don't like the grind for title, don't grind for title. It's not like you must be rank 8 to finish the game. Still rather annoying when you can't buy the armor right away, still r5 is not even that hard to get.

korcan · Sep 07, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

+100 armor party wide. Nope, no better.

No edge there.

There is a trend going on, as time goes by, more and more skills, are tied to titles, that are entirely grind based. If this trend continues, then GW2 will be full of them, and it will not be my game. I do not want that to happen. I am against this trend. There is no "end of story", I'd think I'd like to see an "end of grind-based titles that have overpowered skills". What part of "bad trend" are you unclear on?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

3 seconds of +100 armor compared to 6 seconds of +100 armor is hardly a huge advantage. considering that that skill takes 8 adrenaline to activate, its not like you can constantly spam it whether it lasts 3 or 6 seconds.

and just like "save yourselves" all of the other pve only skills tied to rank are just as effective at a lower rank.

rank discrimination is purely pvp, pvers dont care if your pve only skills arent maxed, and that onlys if you pug.

unfortunately, grind based mmos make lots and lots of money. have you seen sales for wow? you cant blame anet for wanting to add to their bottom line, even if it means gw2 will be more world of warcrafty. but im sure they wont forget about their casual player base either.

tmakinen · Sep 07, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Ok, can everybody who complains about grind look the issue from the point of view of ANet and the larger player community? ANet has said that it's design philosophy is skill over grind. How does this relate to different items in GW:EN?

1. Armor and weapons. They don't even enter the equation because the difference is purely cosmetic - e-peen if you want. Some players want to look 'unique' and the only reasonable way to make this possible is to implement grind: you want it, you work for it. This is completely in accordance with the basic tenet and different options are available to different players so that everybody can be happy.

2. Consumables. These items do provide an advantage, and acquiring them in large quantities requires some grind. But here ANet has been catering to two different players. Those that are skilled do not need consumables. Everything in the game can be accomplished without them. Those that are less skilled have the option to become more skilled, or failing that, to a certain extent ameliorate the lack of skill with grind. In the end all players can be happy for meeting their objectives but a skilled player still has the advantage - he can complete things in a fraction of the time a grinder needs. If there weren't any consumables, some players wouldn't have any realistic options to complete some tasks, and would probably stop playing altogether.

3. PvE only skills. Quess what, it's the same thing as with consumables. If you have skill you won't need them. If you don't have skill you can perhaps grind your way to a level where your skill meets game requirements. But skill is still better than grind.

GloryFox · Sep 07, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

posted by freekedoutfish
You cant talk about grind being a bad thing in GuildWars, when your all willing to sit back and accept its ok to have grind in other aspects of the game.

If you accept grind is ok for...

FOW armor,
Vabbian armor,
Luxon/Kuzack armor,
prestiage armor,
Elite hero armor,
DOA hero armor,
DOA weapons and
Exclusive content in elite zones,
Elite zones in general,
Needing certain sunspear to continue in NF,
Needing 10k luxon and kuzack to continue in Factions,
Gold farming in general,
Material farming in general
and others.

I'm sorry you fail because nothing you listed makes you any more powerful than someone else who have beaten the game. Thus it used to be you would have a level playing field with any other player who played longer, skill over grind. Grinding for power, especially at the rate they require, however (skill power) does not allow a level playing field for someone that beat the game in comparison to someone who plays 8 hours a day 7 days a week, suddenly the game does not offer a level playing field. It is a far different thing Maxing to level 20 for Max ranks on a normal skill than maxing faction needed to get a PvE skill to its full benefit. Furthermore in the case of armor one only had to grind to earn money for said armor. With GWEN you have two investments, quest grind for skill power and money. With one character its no big deal, but with one of each class say 10 characters, one of each class it becomes a great deal of both grind time and money invested. I want to play the game as it was not how it is now. You have already lost me as a customer for GW2, just as ANET has lost many of my ingame and real friends for GW1.

Its a fact ANET has changed the vision from Skill over Grind to Grind over skill. You cannot deny this with the introduction of PvE skill grind being what it currently is. I am not suggesting all PvE skills should be max when you get it I am suggesting the amount be reduced to something obtainable with multiple characters. The amount MAX should be within 50,000 for each PvE faction so that when you MAX out one character you can go one to your next character like you used to, or just enjoy your skills and play the game. I find myself playing the game less with people and grinding more for skills.

Anyone else find something wrong here, I want to play the game for fun with multiple characters not grind for skills all day long. If this is what ANET thinks is fun I AM LOOKING FOR A NEW GAME PERIOD.

ANET your vision has changed, what the hell is wrong with you?

lord dragon · Sep 07, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I'm sorry you fail because nothing you listed makes you any more powerful than someone else who have beaten the game. Thus it used to be you would have a level playing field with any other player who played longer, skill over grind. Grinding for power, especially at the rate they require, however (skill power) does not allow a level playing field for someone that beat the game in comparison to someone who plays 8 hours a day 7 days a week, suddenly the game does not offer a level playing field. It is a far different thing Maxing to level 20 for Max ranks on a normal skill than maxing faction needed to get a PvE skill to its full benefit. Furthermore in the case of armor one only had to grind to earn money for said armor. With GWEN you have two investments, quest grind for skill power and money. With one character its no big deal, but with one of each class say 10 characters, one of each class it becomes a great deal of both grind time and money invested. I want to play the game as it was not how it is now. You have already lost me as a customer for GW2, just as ANET has lost many of my ingame and real friends for GW1.

Its a fact ANET has changed the vision from Skill over Grind to Grind over skill. You cannot deny this with the introduction of PvE skill grind being what it currently is. I am not suggesting all PvE skills should be max when you get it I am suggesting the amount be reduced to something obtainable with multiple characters. The amount MAX should be within 50,000 for each PvE faction so that when you MAX out one character you can go one to your next character like you used to, or just enjoy your skills and play the game. I find myself playing the game less with people and grinding more for skills.

Anyone else find something wrong here, I want to play the game for fun with multiple characters not grind for skills all day long. If this is what ANET thinks is fun I AM LOOKING FOR A NEW GAME PERIOD.

ANET your vision has changed, what the hell is wrong with you?

Ashame but so true. Only option we have when we get bored with the other 3 games or Anet pulls the plug when GW2 comes out. Hitting C, Space Bar over and over is just not exciting to me.

For those that like it, I am glad for you. You like the change and I appreciate it. But, please remember, the rest don't look at it as an acomplishment, we just kinda chuckle.

freekedoutfish · Sep 07, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I'm sorry you fail because nothing you listed makes you any more powerful than someone else who have beaten the game. Thus it used to be you would have a level playing field with any other player who played longer, skill over grind. Grinding for power, especially at the rate they require, however (skill power) does not allow a level playing field for someone that beat the game in comparison to someone who plays 8 hours a day 7 days a week, suddenly the game does not offer a level playing field. It is a far different thing Maxing to level 20 for Max ranks on a normal skill than maxing faction needed to get a PvE skill to its full benefit. Furthermore in the case of armor one only had to grind to earn money for said armor. With GWEN you have two investments, quest grind for skill power and money. With one character its no big deal, but with one of each class say 10 characters, one of each class it becomes a great deal of both grind time and money invested. I want to play the game as it was not how it is now. You have already lost me as a customer for GW2, just as ANET has lost many of my ingame and real friends for GW1.

Its a fact ANET has changed the vision from Skill over Grind to Grind over skill. You cannot deny this with the introduction of PvE skill grind being what it currently is. I am not suggesting all PvE skills should be max when you get it I am suggesting the amount be reduced to something obtainable with multiple characters. The amount MAX should be within 50,000 for each PvE faction so that when you MAX out one character you can go one to your next character like you used to, or just enjoy your skills and play the game. I find myself playing the game less with people and grinding more for skills.

Anyone else find something wrong here, I want to play the game for fun with multiple characters not grind for skills all day long. If this is what ANET thinks is fun I AM LOOKING FOR A NEW GAME PERIOD.

ANET your vision has changed, what the hell is wrong with you?

I dont mean to sound rude, but english your first language? because I didnt understand most of what you wrote until the very last paragraph.

I understand that having to re-do the same things can equate to being grind if you have more then one character. But you choose to make a new character with full knowledge that you need to re-achieve alot of these things.

As for the arguement about PvE skills being conected to titles. As I have said about 1000 times now, you dont need those skills to play the game. They are purely there to offer something new to try.

PvE skills, armor and weapons are not necessities in GWEN. You enter the game with max armor, max weapons and a wide selection of skills to use. Anything else you unlock or purchase in GWEN is just a nice little extra to try out and use instead.

But sorry, I really didnt understand the vast majority of the first and second paragraphs so I cant really comment on what ever you meant about armor.

lord dragon · Sep 07, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

As for the arguement about PvE skills being conected to titles. As I have said about 1000 times now, you dont need those skills to play the game. They are purely there to offer something new to try.

Let me ask you a question please.

Have you ever done DOA?

Have you ever done DOA with a pickup team?

Without level 4 lightbringer, good luck in finding one.

To get that you have to grind. It is not the skill involved, it is sensless killing again and again. EOTN is not just one title to do this with now, but multiple titles. I didn't like that aspect of Nightfall, but it was only one title. Now we are talking taking a bad idea and expanding it to extremes.

You argument of you don't need to skill to complete the game is correct. You don't. But what happens when you have a title 8 with a skill and a level 1? The level 8 gets picked because it is interpreted he is better.

The smart players know that this is not the case. Just means the player mindlessly hit c, space bar over and over.

These to unbalance the game and for the PVE player.

freekedoutfish · Sep 07, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

Ashame but so true. Only option we have when we get bored with the other 3 games or Anet pulls the plug when GW2 comes out. Hitting C, Space Bar over and over is just not exciting to me.

For those that like it, I am glad for you. You like the change and I appreciate it. But, please remember, the rest don't look at it as an acomplishment, we just kinda chuckle.

When you bored with all 3 games?

I've got near to 2 years of playability out of this game, and that is just on ONE character. Ive done prophercies, factions, NF and now GWEN and done most everything you can except elite zones.

That also includes doing all HM missions too and I loved that and it added months more playability.

Have you honestly done EVERYTHING you can in GWs on just one character?

Even if you have got bored with all 3 games, for a game to last 2 years is very impressive and you cant criticise Anet for that. Most other games I have ever played last about 3 weeks and then gather dust on my shelf.

But with GWs ive played nearly ever night for 2-3 hours like an addiction. To try and suggest that Anet dont have a clue about how to keep people interested is just nonsense.

But every game has its limits and a lifespan. Did you honsetly think GWs content was going to last for ever and continue to give you endless supplies of stuff to do?

Ofcourse it gets boring after a while of playing. Ive been there and felt that myself. I nearly left the game until HM was added.

But even when you have done everything... what is so bad about just spending the time you have maxing titles? what else was Anet meant to do, to add more life to the game?

Honestly... you list stuff that Anet could have done to add more life to the game other then add titles to max?

They gave us 3 campaigns with hundreds of quest and dozens of missions. Hundres of weapons, dozens of armors, elite zones, dungeons, heroes to develop and loads of other content that has last a long time.

But there was bound to be a point where they ran out of ideas...

....titles were a great addition for those who had done everything. Yes it may be grinding to max them out, but we have titles that cover alot of aspects.

Exploration,
Mission completion,
Iding rare objects,
Opening chests,
Mini game playing,
Faction battles,
Hero battles etc etc etc etc...

...there is bound to be a title to cover someones taste and if you wish to max them out you can. If you done want to... then you dont have to.

Seriously... tell me what else Anet could have done or added to increase the life span of the game?