Curse

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Heck, if you're going to bring cheaters into the mix, then what's the difference between that and buying an account with "pre-ground" characters?

Between Ecto buyers and "pre-ground" characters? Nothing, they're both cheaters and should be banned immediately. Except the titles and any added bonuses the "pre-ground" characters have is a meaningless certificate.

A trophy is a hunk of metal without the deed.
A certificate is a piece of paper without the knowledge.
And any titles the "pre-ground" character may have is just a bunch of digital text. If that includes any bonus PvE skills... then I would feel pretty cheated.

But then the problem isn't the PvE skills isn't it, it's the cheater who purchased the "pre-ground" account.

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Yes I do, and when I'm in a competition I know they don't use Ear Bite, because it's the PvP arena.

Putting your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la" does not constitute a rebuttal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Instead of whining about it I go back and play. Sooner or later I'll have enough money. The vabbi armour isn't going anywhere.

And you're quite fine with the corruption of the game for those that beleive in the spirit of competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Unless you're in some kind of grinding competition, the playing field is nice and flat, the finish line isn't going anywhere, and no other players are getting in my way.

When someone can finish the deep 25% faster (a perfect example of an area that many of the new pve skills are ideal for) because they spent hundreds of hours grinding, the playing field is far from level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

And what about these words? They want it, they work hard for it, they get it.

And the people got it by using their noggin instead of "working" don't deserve it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I don't make up theories for what goldsellers are doing. I just know that Ectos are not a good example because it's purchasable. All purchasable items are shortcuts to the loot. Kill counts are NOT purchasable, they are a direct reflection of how much has been done, how far we have gone, similar to our post counts.

If you can think of an un-purchasable alternative to keep track of our efforts, then you may use that as a subsitute price for your "flame throwing sword".

Kill counts are just as purchasable as gold or rank, there is no difference other than in your mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

And maybe next time you want to cut back on the name calling and keep this a civilized debate? then maybe none of us will be "naive"

I'm not attacking you, I'm calling the stance that pve is not competitive a naive one because it deliberately ignores plain as day facts about how the game works.

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Kill counts are NOT purchasable, they are a direct reflection of how much has been done, how far we have gone, similar to our post counts.

You say that as though you've never heard of the power-leveling services that you're trying to create business for.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

You say that as though you've never heard of the power-leveling services that you're trying to create business for.

I thought power-leveling is someone else doing the killing and the cheater just standing there. I don't think that raises any kill counts for the cheater does it?

And which title does power leveling raise?

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I thought power-leveling is someone else doing the killing and the cheater just standing there. I don't think that raises any kill counts for the cheater does it?

And which title does power leveling raise?

Do a Google search. Basically, you give them your account and some money in order to pay them to get you to level X and they hire some kid in China to spend however many hours leveling your account and give it back at level X. Or maybe they just steal your account, if you pick a "bad" company.

The prevalence of use of such services depends some on the amount of grinding in the game. If the grinding doesn't give an in-game advantage, then companies are less inclined to sell it, as no one would buy it. I don't know if there are companies out there selling GWEN title grinding, but if there aren't yet, there will be soon.

It's a little harder than buying gold, and certainly just as illegal (against the EULA or whatever), but it does exist.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

Do a Google search. Basically, you give them your account and some money in order to pay them to get you to level X and they hire some kid in China to spend however many hours leveling your account and give it back at level X. Or maybe they just steal your account, if you pick a "bad" company.

The prevalence of use of such services depends some on the amount of grinding in the game. If the grinding doesn't give an in-game advantage, then companies are less inclined to sell it, as no one would buy it. I don't know if there are companies out there selling GWEN title grinding, but if there aren't yet, there will be soon.

It's a little harder than buying gold, and certainly just as illegal (against the EULA or whatever), but it does exist.

Man, that sounds terrible. I had no idea such market exist.

But still they should increase their efforts to flush out this kind of action instead of taking away the titles. Otherwise it'll be like removing gold completely because someone is purchasing them.

genofreek · Sep 06, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

People actually give their account info like that? :O I assumed power levelers just took you somewhere with difficult monsters and ran around killing while you sit back and drink up the XP.

But I'm veering off topic, assuming this thread still has one.

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Man, that sounds terrible. I had no idea such market exist.

But still they should increase their efforts to flush out this kind of action instead of taking away the titles. Otherwise it'll be like removing gold completely because someone is purchasing them.

If you create enough demand for something (e.g., "I want max titles without grinding"), economics dictates that you'll create a black market for it.

I certainly agree that ArenaNet should try to catch and ban people who get their account leveled that way. They almost surely do so already. At the very least, if an account gets stolen that way, they're not inclined to help the would-be cheater get it back. See, for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars login screen

Players: Protect Your Account
Avoid account theft! Do not purchase or sell Guild Wars accounts, do not allow others access to your account, and do not download third-party programs.

I don't think use of such power-leveling services is common in Guild Wars. But they are important for what they say about a game. A game that too much demand for power-leveling is filled with monotonous grinding, and is not a good game.

Checking prices (without buying anything) gives useful information about a game. If they charge $40 to get a Guild Wars character to the level cap, $600 to do the same in WoW, and $2000 for Lineage, guess which game has more grinding. This is kind of like using the Iowa Electronic Markets to correct for errors in the polls and get the best possible information about who will be the next US President.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Putting your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la" does not constitute a rebuttal.

And you're quite fine with the corruption of the game for those that beleive in the spirit of competition.

When someone can finish the deep 25% faster (a perfect example of an area that many of the new pve skills are ideal for) because they spent hundreds of hours grinding, the playing field is far from level.

And the people got it by using their noggin instead of "working" don't deserve it?

Kill counts are just as purchasable as gold or rank, there is no difference other than in your mind.

I'm not attacking you, I'm calling the stance that pve is not competitive a naive one because it deliberately ignores plain as day facts about how the game works.

You seem to insist that this is a competition to see whose the bestest best player in the entire game. Why should it matter so much? If I see someone with a KoaBD title, does that mean I'm lagging behind and I need to get crackin at that title? What if I don't care about it?

And when another team finishes the Deep 25% faster than you, does that make it harder when you enter behind them? When they're done with their run, everything resets for you.

People with their crafty noggins can play better, but what about players who aren't so crafty? They're shit outa luck? The game has a relaxed environment because it doesn't force people to join the rat race competition you're talking about. A newbie 12 year old player can get just as far as a veteran 40 year old player can, even if he can't create the ultimate godlike build like you can.

Kill counts? I wasn't aware people were willing to illegally hand their accounts over to strangers to rake up kill counts. First of all, that's illegal, and like I said, removing titles because of this would be like removing gold because someone can buy gold. The problem is the cheater, not the product their buying.

Unless of course, you're talking about some other legitimate ways to buy kill counts that I'm unaware of...

Calling me Naive is offensive. I don't take that lightly. I play my game the way I want to play, I don't feel inadequate because I have lower ranks or that my PvE skills aren't as powerful. I play at my own pace and know that in the end, it's just about having fun.

But don't go thinking I'm trying to tell you how to play your game. You can play it just the way you like it. Except between us, I'm not the one saying the game is broken. I'm merely suggesting that you can relax and play at your own pace. Take it or leave it, I just don't think someone having more elite weapons and titles shouldn't mean squat to anyone other than the player who earned it themselves.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

Checking prices (without buying anything) gives useful information about a game. If they charge $40 to get a Guild Wars character to the level cap, $600 to do the same in WoW, and $2000 for Lineage, guess which game has more grinding.

Actually I have no idea, I'm sorta new to this information. Which website shows these numbers? My guess is Lineage since it's more expensive...

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Kill counts? I wasn't aware people were willing to illegally hand their accounts over to strangers to rake up kill counts. First of all, that's illegal, and like I said, removing titles because of this would be like removing gold because someone can buy gold. The problem is the cheater, not the product their buying.

To the contrary, if a significant fraction of the playerbase finds actually playing the game to be so onerous as to be willing to pay someone else to play it in their place, the product is a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo

Actually I have no idea, I'm sorta new to this information. Which website shows these numbers? My guess is Lineage since it's more expensive...

Linking gold-selling sites is probably against (or at least should be against) forum rules. Do a Google search for power leveling and you'll find plenty.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

To the contrary, if a significant fraction of the playerbase finds actually playing the game to be so onerous as to be willing to pay someone else to play it in their place, the product is a problem.

I would say the player have chose the wrong game. They should see if they're interested in an alternative game. Not everthing is for everyone...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

Linking gold-selling sites is probably against (or at least should be against) forum rules. Do a Google search for power leveling and you'll find plenty.

This is some heavy duty stuff. Apparently its $20 a level for GW and $30 a level for Lineage for the span of about 5-10 days. The site I found even said they've terminated their WoW-Power leveling service due to having too many accounts banned, lol. It's like I stepped into some serious black market stuff here.... I feel so dirty!

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

You seem to insist that this is a competition to see whose the bestest best player in the entire game. Why should it matter so much? If I see someone with a KoaBD title, does that mean I'm lagging behind and I need to get crackin at that title? What if I don't care about it?

There is unlimited demand for in game items and a limited supply. As soon as that situation arises there is competition. When you give competitive advantages to one group of the comunity at the expense of another, there's a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

And when another team finishes the Deep 25% faster than you, does that make it harder when you enter behind them? When they're done with their run, everything resets for you.

They can use their 25% more gains to outcompete me for the limited supply of items in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

People with their crafty noggins can play better, but what about players who aren't so crafty? They're shit outa luck?

Prior to grind skills, there was no in game advantage available to anyone crafty or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

The game has a relaxed environment because it doesn't force people to join the rat race competition you're talking about. A newbie 12 year old player can get just as far as a veteran 40 year old player can, even if he can't create the ultimate godlike build like you can.

You're in it whether you like it or not. The only way to make guildwars noncomptetitive would be to
1) Remove all player to player trades.
2) Fix the price on all npcs.
3) Not allow pugging.
4) Remove all pve leaderboards.
5) Remove town ownership
6) Remove all player to player communication.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Kill counts? I wasn't aware people were willing to illegally hand their accounts over to strangers to rake up kill counts. First of all, that's illegal, and like I said, removing titles because of this would be like removing gold because someone can buy gold. The problem is the cheater, not the product their buying.
Unless of course, you're talking about some other legitimate ways to buy kill counts that I'm unaware of...

The point of all that was to rebutt the your assertion that time spent grinding killcounts is somehow superior to any other measure of player achievment and should therefore receive greater rewards because people cheat. Achieving in any aspect of the game should be rewarded equally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Calling me Naive is offensive. I don't take that lightly. I play my game the way I want to play, I don't feel inadequate because I have lower ranks or that my PvE skills aren't as powerful. I play at my own pace and know that in the end, it's just about having fun.

Perhaps we're running into cultural differences, because offense was not intended. Would "you're being deliberately blind to the way the game works" be less offensive?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

But don't go thinking I'm trying to tell you how to play your game. You can play it just the way you like it. Except between us, I'm not the one saying the game is broken. I'm merely suggesting that you can relax and play at your own pace. Take it or leave it, I just don't think someone having more elite weapons and titles shouldn't mean squat to anyone other than the player who earned it themselves.

You think the new direction guildwars has taken is an improvement and that it should stay, regardless of the people its hurting. I'm saying its a violation precept that made the game great in the first place.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

There is unlimited demand for in game items and a limited supply. As soon as that situation arises there is competition. When you give competitive advantages to one group of the comunity at the expense of another, there's a problem.

Limited supply of what? What is this supply in PvE that will run out if I don't achieve KoaBD? So far it only seems like there are getting more and more of things, and the prices are dropping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

They can use their 25% more gains to outcompete me for the limited supply of items in the game.

What, in the world is this limited supply you're talking about? Kanaxai's Edge will continue to drop when you go back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Prior to grind skills, there was no in game advantage available to anyone crafty or not.

Someone who isn't crafty enough will never be able to beat the Deep with their lousy builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You're in it whether you like it or not. The only way to make guildwars noncomptetitive would be to
1) Remove all player to player trades.
2) Fix the price on all npcs.
3) Not allow pugging.
4) Remove all pve leaderboards.
5) Remove all player to player communication.

1) Someone has something I want, I have something they need. Trade. Only greed can create an imaginary competition here. It's a nice form of capitalism.
2) That's actually not a bad idea. But even though they're variables, they seem pretty fix to me most of the time. I can't see the reason why Black Dye is 7k because someone can use Ear Bite.
3) How is pugging competitive? They're my fellow teammates, not my enemy.
4) The only leaderboard I know of is the Rollerbeetle leaderboards, let me know where there's a leaderboard where the actual competition allows you to use Ear Bite.
5) What's so competitive about chit-chatting?

If its truly this competitive, why aren't you worried about getting 15k and Obsidian armors for all your characters, alot of players already have! Unless you think you can just choose what you want to compete in...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The point of all that was to rebutt the your assertion that time spent grinding killcounts is somehow superior to any other measure of player achievment and should therefore receive greater rewards because people cheat. Achieving in any aspect of the game should be rewarded equally.

I'm all for rewarding non-cheated efforts, as long as it doesn't alienate those who aren't elite enough to come up with some godly builds. Even shitty players deserve rewards for trying...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Perhaps we're running into cultural differences, because offense was not intended. Would "you're being deliberately blind to the way the game works" be less offensive?

It insults me less, but you think I'm blind for not feeling inadequate around players with KoaBD titles? The reason I love this game is because, unlike WoW, I can log off the game for a month or two and won't suddenly log back into a game where I face players 50 levels ahead of me standing outside of town waiting to just pummel me with fireballs. I come back to guild wars, and the worst I see is just other players donning their 15k armors... that doesn't affect me.

I see the PvE as Cooperative online play instead of Competitive online play, that place is in the PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You think the new direction guildwars has taken is an improvement, I'm saying its a violation precept that made the game great in the first place.

I don't think it has changed, not much anyways. Any advantage a player gets will never affect another fellow player directly. But when it does, trust me, I won't be happy either.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 06, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

Now suppose that you're in a group to something, and then the group finds out that you have low Deldrimor rank and someone else who wants to join has high Deldrimor rank, so they boot you to invite the other person. But that wouldn't affect you, right? Is that any less legitimate than booting someone for, say, not having any weapon or armor?

I think your confusing advantage with opportunity here. This doesn't stand as a legitimate advantage over me, since I wouldn't want to be a part of this group anyway. Did I miss an opportunity to group with some people who I'd rather not group with? Yes, but I'm still not disadvantaged for not doing so.

Thankfully, no, this wouldn't affect me in the slightest. And you still wouldn't have any advantage over me since it's neither here nor there when we're not grouped together.

But I will happily see you at the end of GWEN, or any campaign for that matter, still using my collector axe from Prophecies, wearing my Vabbian armor from Nightfall, still using a few skills from Factions, and having rank 3 Asura at best, and ask you the same question:
So, where's this giant advantage you had over me?

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I would say the player have chose the wrong game. They should see if they're interested in an alternative game. Not everthing is for everyone...

I'd often be inclined to say that, too. But if for Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall, this was the right game, and then for GWEN it suddenly becomes the wrong game, is the problem with the player or is the problem with GWEN?

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

I'd often be inclined to say that, too. But if for Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall, this was the right game, and then for GWEN it suddenly becomes the wrong game, is the problem with the player or is the problem with GWEN?

Good thing GWEN is an expansion, because you're free to choose to not buy it.

Guild Wars had a large community, with various different kinds of players playing for various different kind of goals. Each time a campaign came out, they catered to the same large community.

This is their first expansion, and expansions are usually designed for a specifically targeted community, like those who enjoy titles, high-end rewards, and dungeon looting. If the player doesn't like it, obviously they're not part of the "target audience".

If anything is Anet's fault, it's that they should've just came out with another chapter... and I won't argue with you there.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 06, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

I'd often be inclined to say that, too. But if for Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall, this was the right game, and then for GWEN it suddenly becomes the wrong game, is the problem with the player or is the problem with GWEN?

And therein lies the conundrum. But honestly, when it comes to entertainment value, it's ultimately up to the consumer as to its pure value. I dont' see this as a problem for either party. It's your choice. Some people find chess extremely boring to play. But why are there annual world wide chess tournaments? Because there's others that find it to be the most exciting, challenging thing in the world.

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Limited supply of what? What is this supply in PvE that will run out if I don't achieve KoaBD? So far it only seems like there are getting more and more of things, and the prices are dropping.

What, in the world is this limited supply you're talking about? Kanaxai's Edge will continue to drop when you go back.

The supply every item is limited to the rate at which the playing community can obtain them. When demand outstrips supply prices rise - its the basic principle of economics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Someone who isn't crafty enough will never be able to beat the Deep with their lousy builds.

...Unless they learn and get better

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

1) Someone has something I want, I have something they need. Trade. Only greed can create an imaginary competition here. It's a nice form of capitalism.

If someone else is willing to pay more, you've just been outcompeted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

2) That's actually not a bad idea. But even though they're variables, they seem pretty fix to me most of the time. I can't see the reason why Black Dye is 7k because someone can use Ear Bite.

Because cost (not price) is relative to income, when they can earn money faster than you, the cost to price ratio is different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

3) How is pugging competitive? They're my fellow teammates, not my enemy.

Until you're dropped from a pug for someone else because they had level 10 deldrimor and you only had 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

4) The only leaderboard I know of is the Rollerbeetle leaderboards, let me know where there's a leaderboard where the actual competition allows you to use Ear Bite.

Dragon's Throat, Altrumm Ruins, Amatz Basin, Zos Shivros Channel, The Aurios Mines, Dajkah Inlet, The Shadow Nexus, Glint's Challenge.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Challenge_mission

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

5) What's so competitive about chit-chatting?

You wouldn't want to accidently compete by trying to do something as well as someone else.

... now appart from 4, which I could beleive you might have genuinely overlooked, did I really have to explain any of those or are you just being argumentative?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

If its truly this competitive, why aren't you worried about getting 15k and Obsidian armors for all your characters, alot of players already have! Unless you think you can just choose what you want to compete in...

Yup, and I'd like to be able to compete in anything, but that can't without a level playing field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I'm all for rewarding non-cheated efforts, as long as it doesn't alienate those who aren't elite enough to come up with some godly builds. Even shitty players deserve rewards for trying...

Do they deserve to get better skills than those that don't grind... That's the problem right now, because thats what grinders are getting, shitty or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

It insults me less, but you think I'm blind for not feeling inadequate around players with KoaBD titles?.

You play how you like, grind skills or not, you can still go on and play non-competitive pve. But you're trying to deny that these changes are ruining parts of the game for huge numbers players who are invested in the original guild wars manifesto - that is what I mean by blind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

The reason I love this game is because, unlike WoW, I can log off the game for a month or two and won't suddenly log back into a game where I face players 50 levels ahead of me standing outside of town waiting to just pummel me with fireballs. I come back to guild wars, and the worst I see is just other players donning their 15k armors... that doesn't affect me.

I see the PvE as Cooperative online play instead of Competitive online play, that place is in the PvP.

I don't think it has changed, not much anyways. Any advantage a player gets will never affect another fellow player directly. But when it does, trust me, I won't be happy either.

15k armor for grind is just dandy, we're not arguing about cosmetics, grinders can have all the pretty armours they want.
Whether they're 50 levels ahead of you or have skills which are twice as effective is just a question of degrees. What if instead of pve skills, they had did add a 20 level advantage for players that killed 200k monsters in GW:EN only? How about 10 levels or even just 1? For players that were already chargrinned by r7 items, can you not see how what you think is a minor skill advantage would be to them what 50 levels are to you?

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Good thing GWEN is an expansion, because you're free to choose to not buy it.

If the GWEN skills were unusable outside of GWEN, you'd have a point. For that matter, even if only the title-track linked skills of GWEN were unusable outside of GWEN (like how Lightbringer is useless outside of Nightfall), you'd have a point. Is that the case?

It is perhaps a weakness of the Guild Wars model that future content has the potential to unbalance older content which is already released and working well. Perhaps it is a good thing and not a bad thing that GWEN is to be the last installment of Guild Wars 1.