Curse

DreamWind · Sep 26, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

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Originally Posted by strcpy

Yes really - he said it was designed to be competitive from the ground up, not PvP was what they intended it to be and tacked PvE on or anything about the order done.

Yea...meaning even the PvE was designed in PvP in mind. Thus, they intended the game to be far more PvP oriented than it is today.

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PvE was developed first, PvP was developed second

Show me evidence of this and I'll show you evidence to the contrary. Do you know how many times Anet has changed their official stances with this game?

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in the beginning one *had* to PvE to get unlocks for PvP.

Yea...PvE mechanics being tied onto PvP were a large factor in its downfall over time.

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If anyone remotely knows the history of how the game was played (and by telling us how it was developed you are implying you know it) they are not thinking if they think that Anet originally intended any thing other than what they have repeatedly said - both as equals.

I don't mind them being equals. It is when the presence of one takes away from the other is where I have a problem.

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GW isn't a Competitive Online Game, it isn't an Online RPG, it is a Competitive Online RPG.

Eh, I can show you evidence where it said specifically "competitive online game" but I'm too lazy to find it. All I have to say is, look at the ads of older boxes of GW compared to newer boxes. Older stresses competitive, newer stresses rpg and choosing how you want to play. If that isn't PvE changing the original ideas of the game, I don't know what is.

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And, finally, that type of attitude is exactly what I describe as what killed PvP. And I still see no way for a technical fix to it

Eh, this argument is bad and has been picked apart in so many other threads that I don't really want to go into it here.

strcpy · Sep 26, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yea...meaning even the PvE was designed in PvP in mind. Thus, they intended the game to be far more PvP oriented than it is today.

Probably. At the least PvP was considered the "end game". Did I ever say otherwise? In fact that tends to be the "competitive" part that I said most PvE's want to ignore. I also agreed that there has been a shift towards PvE (this seems to be a constant of this post - an inability to read what I wrote and only read what you want me to say *sigh*).

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Show me evidence of this and I'll show you evidence to the contrary. Do you know how many times Anet has changed their official stances with this game?

If the search here worked worth anything then I would, it's been quoted on the forums many many times. It *explicitly* states the order developed - do you have a quote otherwise? The best I have seen is the "GW was developed from ground up to be competitive" and that says nothing about which was done first. There is a reason why that, and only that, video is the main "evidence" against the PvE was developed first people.

And, still, I don't see why that matters. Development on a large project follows what is called a "critical path" in software engineering, that is the developers track what chunks of the development take the longest to do and schedule around that. They do not schedule development around what chunk they find to be the main idea. Due to the number of models, scripts, and enemies needed for PvE it is *obviously* the critical path and they would be idiots to do otherwise. They aren't idiots.

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Yea...PvE mechanics being tied onto PvP were a large factor in its downfall over time.

Again, I disagree. No new players is it's downfall over time and that is more based on the community sucks. PvP had began to die (much as PUGS have on the PvE end) well before any of the things cited. The number one complaint - by far - has always barrier to entry, otherwise known as "elitism".

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I don't mind them being equals. It is when the presence of one takes away from the other is where I have a problem.

Except they didn't. At worst (or best case for your argument) they had to split development time and spent too much on PvE. Then again, had the PvP community been remotely friendly and accepting of new players then they would have spent more time on it I'm sure (back to that whole "who makes us more money" thing - can't fix the community with technical changes). To note, had they not had hench and later heroes PvE would be in the same place - no one wants to play something that isn't fun for hours upon end hoping to one day make it to the fun spots (and is why the UAS PvP'ers left to go elsewhere also, but they were gone *well* before anything you speak of).

Technically, after Balthazar's Faction and the Battle Isles, I can't see anywhere that PvE encroached on the PvP end - in fact it is pretty much the other way around. All the classes and all the skills are looked at nearly totally from a PvP perspective (one can argue how well they do so, but that is different) and new PvE areas do not impact PvP in the slightest.

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Eh, I can show you evidence where it said specifically "competitive online game" but I'm too lazy to find it. All I have to say is, look at the ads of older boxes of GW compared to newer boxes. Older stresses competitive, newer stresses rpg and choosing how you want to play. If that isn't PvE changing the original ideas of the game, I don't know what is.

First, it is hard to find it outside of off the cuff comments - no one is that careful. The game has always been and still is a competitive online RPG - do you disagree with that or are you just trying to score points? I want to see this proof (or heck, even evidence) that it isn't a Competitive Online RPG, especially given how the game is structured.

You will note that I agree that the emphasis has moved much more towards PvE so I'm not sure how the second part is disagreeing with me? However, you can't have it both ways. You can't have GW being primarily a PvP game that puts all their resources in PvE. It can either focus on one over the other or try and keep them equal. Given that both sides seem to think the other is it's nemesis I would guess that they did the old compromise thing quite well - that being a compromise is something that makes neither side happy (and thus treat them fairly equal).

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Eh, this argument is bad and has been picked apart in so many other threads that I don't really want to go into it here.

Yea, because obviously PvP has TONS of new players. It is a vibrant growing community that the only (or even the main) complaints of any one is skill balances and Halls not having the favored team formats. Err, maybe not, maybe it *is* the elitism and barriers to entry 95% of the newer players complain about.

If you are mainly a PvP-er: your choice. Telling someone to suck it up and live with it usually results in someone not doing so, especially when they can easily say no and go play the part of the game they found fun (or go play another game where that attitude isn't there). Outside of "I did it, suck it up" I haven't seen any "picked apart" and we now see how well that argument works. That's OK to feel that way - after all it *is* true - however it will result in few new players and a slow death (exactly as we have seen in PvP). Maybe after it dies we will see something come back along that is decent to play, those that say "suck it up" having gone elsewhere. Again, that attitude is what caused the death of PvP regardless of how true the point you are making is.

=HT=Ingram · Sep 26, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

strcpy Wrong my friend The first incarnation of GW during beta was PvP arenas... Then they added the alpha builds to PvE into the beta environment... The reason? PvE from alpha was poorly made and ultimately Anet has been trying to rid itself of that particular history cause it had to be completly trashed and reworked from the ground up. Basically the Alpha build that only a handful of people outside of Arenanet ever played was BAD very bad and as such scraped... They moved on to PvP cause that was what was working at the time... with UAS active that is...

Indeed it was well after the 3rd beta that Lions Arch was presented as PvE for the first time... and the 4th before the current revision of Ascalon region was accessible. The 5th beta was basically Prophecies up to the desert... and then the pre launch beta (which had limited access to Droknars with almost NOTHING in snake dance). And finally Prophecies launch... Its also worth noting that the presearing launch that allowed a temporary jump of PvP characters into PvE was not until beta 5, I believe. just shy of the prelaunch... I was one of the lucky few that had The best of the best PvP stuff on a PvE character for the last few betas... It was a bug that was quickly fixed through numerous reporting, but it didn't matter cause we were all going to be reset in the end anyway. But from the beginning Ingram of Haz, my trusty Beast Master was originally a PvP character and he had seen it all during beta with out being recreated until the reset at launch.

So Please I could give a flying fig for PvE or PvP and which is more important. All I was EVER saying it was what happened, I was there, I should know. As does any number of beta testers that have been in the game for well over 3 years now...

-Loki- · Sep 26, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

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Originally Posted by strcpy

Yes really - he said it was designed to be competitive from the ground up, not PvP was what they intended it to be and tacked PvE on or anything about the order done.

I guess you missed the part where he refers to 1000 people watching 2 guilds play GvG as the ultimate expression of that competition they were striving for? They wanted Guild Wars to be a PvP game. They changed their minds somewhere between the last beta event and Prophecies retail release.

TabascoSauce · Sep 26, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Jeff Strain had a speech on MMO design at GC2007. Link follows.

http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php

Mr Strain references PvP once in the speech, and that merely as a list as to what player types are actually incorrect to stereotype in MMOs, specifically GW. If you read the rest, he is pretty much talking about PvE.

Whatever the original intentions or design of the game, the PvP community is a small minority when compared to the PvE community.

I'd have to agree with strcpy, the focus from ANet has gone to PvE, and EotN seems to back that up.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Cebe · Sep 26, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

I guess you missed the part where he refers to 1000 people watching 2 guilds play GvG as the ultimate expression of that competition they were striving for? They wanted Guild Wars to be a PvP game. They changed their minds somewhere between the last beta event and Prophecies retail release.

This is one thing I'm not getting my head around. I never had GW from the beginning, though I really wish I had. I bought GW when Factions was released. But considering GW was "intended to be a PvP game"...the Prophecies map is HUGE. It's the largest, and longest game of the three imo (not least because it takes so long to level up, for new players at least)...There's a awful lot of PvE content in Prophecies alone. It really didn't seem to me that it was supposed to have a PvP focus when I first bought Prophecies (to add on to Factions) as a complete newbie to Online RPGs.

-Loki- · Sep 26, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

This is one thing I'm not getting my head around. I never had GW from the beginning, though I really wish I had. I bought GW when Factions was released. But considering GW was "intended to be a PvP game"...the Prophecies map is HUGE. It's the largest, and longest game of the three imo (not least because it takes so long to level up, for new players at least)...There's a awful lot of PvE content in Prophecies alone. It really didn't seem to me that it was supposed to have a PvP focus when I first bought Prophecies (to add on to Factions) as a complete newbie to Online RPGs.

B ut there was no endgame, that's the point. Once you finished the campaign, aside from UW and FoW, there was nothing to do. Arenanet added Sorrows Furnace and the titan quests to give PvE a bit more of an endgame, when they realised a good majority of people who bought their game didn't want to play PvP when they finished the campaign. The whole idea was play PvE until you finish it, put it down and wait for the next campaign or play PvP. But most people didn't want to do either. They wanted endgame grind. They wanted a reason to continue playing after they finished a campaign that wasn't PvP.

strcpy · Sep 27, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

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Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Basically the Alpha build that only a handful of people outside of Arenanet ever played was BAD very bad and as such scraped... They moved on to PvP cause that was what was working at the time...

So you disagree with me by saying the started with PvE and then moved into PvP? Or did you just not say what you really meant? Other than the beta's and what they told us of their internal stuff we don't know what they scrapped or didn't. However your time line says the developed PvE, didn't like it, then worked on PvP which fits the time line I gave also and I am wrong?

So far, the only explicit statements they have given on the order confirms what I said and Ingram's given time line (though he doesn't seem to agree with his own time line either). Other than that it is assuming someone meant something they didn't say one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

It really didn't seem to me that it was supposed to have a PvP focus when I first bought Prophecies (to add on to Factions) as a complete newbie to Online RPGs.

That is because it didn't - it didn't focus on either one. They were intended to be equal and no split in the community. It didn't work that way and some seem to need their side to be the ultimate winner. PvE was what you started on and played for fun or for prestige items, PvP was the endgame stuff and you played competatively. You couldn't PvP without playing PvE and there was little to do (other than farm for FoW armor) after you beat the campaign. After a month or two into release the two started parting ways - it had begun (although in small ways) when I first started playing and quickly separated from there.

I'm not sure that the two communities can ever really be "whole" in the sense that Anet started with, then again I'm not sure they can not be. Heck, many will not even believe what Anet tells us when it matches 100% with classical software engineering practices and is the logical way to go about working on the game and many will proceed to take the order they developed something to be it's "worth".

IMO most of the "fixes" since I started only served to separate them and cause more complaint - of course I do not know what would have happened had they ignored those complaints also. Most people really do not know what they want when it comes to software design (and that isn't limited to games either). Until they got their wish one of the main complaints/requests (and arguably the number one) on the forums was that characters can not enter an area by being run there, only by getting there through the story line - and we have factions that does exactly that and is hated by the very people that wanted it.

I can't say I'm any better on what my "wants" list with respect to PvP was from the beginning, but what we got didn't end too good either. I can't blame Anet either - if they didn't do it they would be blasted for not listening, if they did they are blasted for doing something people didn't like.

=HT=Ingram · Sep 27, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

No I am saying it was never presented to the public as a PvE game cause the PvE Alpha was never really presentable back then... The PvP portion that was worked on from the beginning in Alpha was however, so that's what took the public's eye at E3 from the beginning... Both were started on at the same time, but ultimately PvE had a major lag time in development because what they had just was not working...

So what they presented to the world was a PvP rich environment, and that's is what got everyone's attention, and for many Brought them away from WoW and EQ and others such titles to participate in GW beta events, and ultimately GW launch... No one disputes that audience was a large one. However Now that audiance balance has shifted. Also not disputed. After some marketing analysis I'm sure Anet relized that Campaigns were not going to make any money just from PvP... Not in the numbers they needed to sustain their Mission Criteria of No subscription fees ever...

So it was off to mostly PvE content, and its been the most rewarding part of the game ever since. and eveyday the PvE lands and missions and expansions grow, and PvP remains pretty much the same as far as content, more people are playing the PvE part. so the analysis held true... The bad part is the people that really came to GW from the first E3 presentation feel a little cheated. Because it went from a UAS No grind needed, to a Grind heavy PvE game in their eyes... And basically thats the truth. thats exactly what happened... But it is what makes the money for Arenanet. and that is why GW2 will most likely be PvE based, with intermixed PvP, similar to apenwood or maybe alliance battles... in the main servers...

However I happen to know they are working on another concept for battle ilse PvP style playing that will come to GW2, that will basically be 100% separate from the rest of the game (NO PvE characters allowed). Think more along the lines of the events with limited skills selection sets during the competition... (Pick 3 from UAS, given 5 from core for event type thing) then duke it out... Not quite polymock, in that you turn into different races and all, but similar in concept on a much larger scale...

The other PvP that is integrated into the main part of the game will effect the PvE world as things happen... Want to go on a dungeon raid. Well if the PvP part looses maybe that area will not be accessible till they win. Or maybe the things down there will change by who is winning in the PvP part of the PvE game(more likly). Think alliance battles but it changes the zones and whats in them as things change in the battles...

Also the whole time shift mechanism looks to be interesting too. Day time activities and adventuring will be different from night time activities and adventuring. Don't worry its not real time. its sequenced more like top of hour, bottom of hour type of thing... Though it may also be Dist 1 is night Dist 2 is day dist 3 is night dist 4 is day. I dont think they have decided how thats going to work yet... They just mentioned that component being a part of the new game eventually in one of the interviews...

So I hold to my statement... PvP was what Anet presented to the world in the beginning as what Guild Wars was all about.
Its not about grind its about skills...

But as the game evolved the PvE part of the game became the focus for the majority of players looking for a free MMO not really caring to much about PvP as end game content... So each successive campaign added a end game reward because PvP was not appropriate as a reward for most of those players in PvE anymore... As that population outgrew the die hard PvPers, the attitude in the community emerged and it was raging...

Anet Tried to bring the 2 together and that just made things worse for some...

Anet continues to support PvP as much as possible with skill nerfs and balances FIRST AND FOREMOST because PvE can always adapt to any such nerf. Where as PvP balance can be significantly hurt by an overpowered skill that is exploited ina way that its not designed to be used. Thus the new PvE only skills that will likely never change (unless completly broken or doing things that its not suppose to by design) because they will never effect PvP.

I'm side tracking now, so I'll leave this chapter done.

However I do want to point out 1 more thing... a good 60% of the things the community has conceived of, has been adopted and developed for the community by Arenanet...

Guild hall services (guild becomes a town for your guildies to do commerce in)
Alliances with multi guilds
Rune, Dye, Rare materials, Traders
End game rewards
Rare Green weapons
unique Rare weapon and armor Crafters in Elite areas of the game.
Storage chest, and later additional storage tabs and materials tabs.
Titles (AND not making them TOO easy to attain, but not impossible either)
Armor Insignias and Weapon inscriptions
Skill Tomes
Even several quests (Gwen's quests, Several Optional quests with EXP gold rewards)
Hard mode

Every one of those came from concepts and ideas for the game from the community... How they were implemented obviously was Arenanet themselves as they could not always be exactly what was asked for to be fair to everyone in the game, but basically thats how GW as it is today came to be. So we got what we all asked for, and the PvE community is by far the most vitreous populace on fan forums. And the ones that take the time to think out and work with others to make it better before presenting it to Arenanet for consideration. That is why we love this game and the developers that make it. Its part of what we ourselves wanted and came up with...

DreamWind · Sep 27, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

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Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

However I do want to point out 1 more thing... a good 60% of the things the community has conceived of, has been adopted and developed for the community by Arenanet...
[*] Guild hall services (guild becomes a town for your guildies to do commerce in)[*] Alliances with multi guilds[*] Rune, Dye, Rare materials, Traders[*] End game rewards[*] Rare Green weapons[*] unique Rare weapon and armor Crafters in Elite areas of the game.[*] Storage chest, and later additional storage tabs and materials tabs.[*] Titles (AND not making them TOO easy to attain, but not impossible either)[*] Armor Insignias and Weapon inscriptions[*] Skill Tomes[*] Even several quests (Gwen's quests, Several Optional quests with EXP gold rewards)[*] Hard mode

Every one of those came from concepts and ideas for the game from the community...

So we got what we all asked for, and the PvE community is by far the most vitreous populace on fan forums.

If you want me to be completely honest, only 1-2 of the updates you listed are things I even care about. Some would even argue that a some of those listed were BAD for the game. As for the rest, I can think of at least 10 other updates that would have been more important.

So while they did make a lot of community wanted changes, I can tell you that some of the more important game changes were ignored or delayed for ridiculous periods. Perhaps the PvE/PvP conflict shows itself again?

Xx_Sorin_xX · Sep 28, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

they still are mixed to a degree.

skill updates being one major thing that shows them mixed. balancing PvE messes up PvP and vice versa. which is probably why PvP and PvE will be exclusive in GW2

strcpy · Sep 28, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

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Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

No I am saying it was never presented to the public as a PvE game cause the PvE Alpha was never really presentable back then... The PvP portion that was worked on from the beginning in Alpha was however, so that's what took the public's eye at E3 from the beginning... Both were started on at the same time, but ultimately PvE had a major lag time in development because what they had just was not working...

I mostly agree, I'm just not sure why told me I was wrong because you are saying the same thing.

The only quibble is I just don't think it took that long for it to be sold as a PvE game. I purchased it somewhere between a month to two months after release and, at that time, the community had already split somewhat. I almost didn't purchase the game because I was afraid the "PvP that has a little PvE game" crowd was correct, however there were more "PvE that you can go from casual to hardcore PvP" - which is the game I wanted and the game I received. Already there were WAY more PvE based message boards and fan sites - again why I decided to give it a go.

The other is that I don't think *either* side is what it was all about from the beginning - or rather it was all about *both* sides. It is irrelevant which parts were started first or which parts were in beta first. That has more to do with development time than anything else - if they want their project to be done anywhere close to on time it *must* be that way (again, that is standard software engineering). I can't see how a game focused mostly on PvP had the mechanism for unlocks and such at release, nor can I see a game focused mainly on PvE push you that strongly into PvP.

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So each successive campaign added a end game reward because PvP was not appropriate as a reward for most of those players in PvE anymore... As that population outgrew the die hard PvPers, the attitude in the community emerged and it was raging...

As someone who is in the PvE mainly crowd I can tell you why *I* don't PvP - as I said the community sucks. Those rewards are really only relevant to the more hardcore players - while they are important they constitute only a small percentage of the player base. Most PvE's will not do too much with the end game areas (however, most long term players will), like the actual story line most people play it once and move on. Be careful you don't confuse "forum users" with "most players" as they are VERY different in their playing. PvP *should* have been what kept a lot of those gamers around.

At one time RA and TA was quite a bit of fun - I could go play there and have fun most times of the day. Then we got Balthazar's Fction - instead of people playing to play and have fun you had a HUGE spike in players only playing for easy faction. They leeched, ragequit, and exploited the running system to get skills they shouldn't have. You always had *some* level of that, but it went from fairly rare to pretty much every time you entered a match.

From that point on there was no easy casual progression into higher end PvP and the low end stuff was Not Fun. Few PvE'ers are going to want to put up with it, however in the early days you had quite a few that found they liked it and moved into the higher ends and those like me still played quite a bit of it on the lower end. Now, lower end is nothing more than people grinding for faction (many through exploits) and high end is near impossible to make it into without being dedicated and having more time that most people have. That results in no players - no new ones and you will always have some attrition of your current player base. And to note - I'm not blaming Anet here, Faction was heavily requested and made sense at the time.

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Anet Tried to bring the 2 together and that just made things worse for some...

Agreed, however I think forcing the PvP crowd into an "RPG Mentality" was the main problem. UAX on PvP *only* characters and leave PvE characters the same would have been MUCH better than what we have now. Heck, many PvE'ers see the PvP end as unlocks for heroes (I know it is the main thing I use it for and is the number one suggestion on the forums) which makes the above mention "leech" problem even worse. I must say that at the time I was one that thought UAX was the wrong path and faction was a great idea, but in hindsight I was wrong. It changed PvP to something you played for fun (or to climb the ladders) into something you played for faction - "farming" and "PvP" should never be used in the same sentence yet many, if not most, of the people in PvP are faction farming.

I hope the stuff added in todays update forces people to be better. I *want* that type of play I had at the beginning too - I clearly remember a few big smiles playing RA and TA. It also sounds like Anet has similar thoughts to what is causing the current problems with lower end PvP too.