Curse

SotiCoto · Sep 30, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Flu, I understand your concerns. I even appreciate what you're saying. But in the end, the /report system is necessary to make the game a better place for everyone. In general, if you're reported a few times, you're not likely to get any action on your account. If you're reported a lot, but it's clear from the reports that it's a concerted effort (harassment) by a group, again, I feel sure you'll be safe. You can always appeal an account action to Support. But in the end, honestly, the system will be good for the game, and the game will be better for the system.

May I ask that you give it a few days, even a week, and see how things shake out? First of all, we'll like make some small modifications, based on player feedback. Secondly, a few days or a week will give players a better view of how the system works and how much it improves the game. If it is found that people are getting blocked unjustly, we'll definitely change it. I say we all take a look in a few days, and thanks to everyone for your feedback.

I disagree 100%
The game was just fine without the report system. People played, had fun... all was well in the world. Likewise... there were leechers who don't care too much for the game but just wanted the points.... and likewise were after their kind of fun. There are "griefers" and spammers who likewise are doing what they consider fun.
There may well be disagreements there, as such people can clash with other players.... but life is like that. People do not agree with each other. Sometimes they just need to find some sort of neutral ground or try to stay out of each other's way.

What the report command is doing though.... is trying to bring about Communism.... and the funny thing about Communism is that it is quite seriously elitist. 51% of the community can now have fun at the expense of the other 49% .... Does that sound good to you? It doesn't to me. Does it sound NECESSARY to you? It certainly doesn't to me.

I believe the presence of the griefers and leechers is a SMALL price to pay for a fun and secure game... where one needn't fear every moment that a mob of idiots with power far beyond what they should have is going to charge in and slam down the report function just because they don't agree with the way one person chooses to have their fun or go about general business.

I value freedom.
Every time a freedom is taken away... yes, I resent it greatly.
Every time a freedom is taken away to compensate for the weakness of a few people and their inability to cope with their surroundings.... THAT is when it goes WAY too far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It is completely pointless to talk to you. You are not listening to any word of what people (not agreeing with you) are saying. It seems illogical that you are trying to make a point with this disrespectufl ign while not trying to understand the point people are making.

But I guess I'm not going to be understood so let's play it simple: did you ever loose one of YOUR baby to cot's death? (this is NOT, and never will be, what I'd wish to anyone, sincerely)

When you are basing your argument on rhetoric alone, you have NO business talking to me about logic. "Respect" is a rhetorical matter and is unbound by logic. Whether one has lost babies to cot death and whether it is sad or not is completely and utterly irrelevant.
The point people are making is that they are too weak to just cope with the way the game goes, and would rather sacrifice their freedom for protection. I personally cannot justify such a course of action... and will quite gladly fight for my right to be "disrespectful", irrespective of whether I act on that right or not.

Give it a few more weeks and everyone will be calling each other "comrade"...

arcady · Sep 30, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Being able to report harassment and foul language are vitally important to any good policing system for an online community. I second NoXiFy's comment about whispers.

It would be nice to be able to target from whispers in general. I have the same problem when trying to join PUGs I see advertised in chat - if the person didn't use party search I have to run around until I see them. Of course, they should have used Party Search, but even still, for /report, it would be nice to be able to click on a name in my chat bar and simply have a pulldown to either chat back, ignore, report, invite, trade, etc...

Something like this:

hyro yamaguchi · Sep 30, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The /Report system gets a resounding NO from me.

Reason: The vast majority of people are extremely prejudiced. They have their own notions on what should and should not be allowed... absolutely ZERO consideration for how others (even those they personally don't like) may choose to play for their own entertainment..... and will abuse a system like this toward those ends.
One alone isn't a problem.... but when you get a lot of people agreeing on the same ridiculous bias (as will often happen).... then it tends to get decided simply by weight of the majority. They impose their will on any would-be individuals who might not be like them... and destroy the game for them.

What we end up with is mob rule.... whereby the idiots with the most similarly idiotic friends control what does and does not happen in game... Leaving such power in the hands of children is ridiculous... and NO... it will not "sort itself out over time".... it will only end up with those same idiotic children in charge... and anyone with even a slightly contrary opinion on how things should be getting permabanned.

Ditch the report system.
Leave the leechers and the griefers to their business. Their fun will also make them enemies.... and if that bothers them then they will change their attitude. If it doesn't bother them.... then so what? Work around them. The majority of people don't do that, and if anything it just adds an unpredictable element to the game to make it more interesting. And honestly, people should be allowed to do such things, much as any given individual should be allowed to oppose them on their own terms.
The people screaming for the game to be policed for them are those who are too weak to deal with life as it comes and take matters into their own hands if necessary.

I mean... do I go crying to all and sundry because I live in a city where things DO get stolen and people DO get killed? Of course not. Honestly... I don't care. I make my own security measures to ensure I don't fall victim to such things... much as I'd expect anyone else to do, rather than whine to the police about it. I value my freedom more than my life or my material property.

Communism doesn't work.
Don't do it.

Seriously.

Not to get into a philosophical argument or anything, but ethics is usually defined as what the majority thinks is right and wrong.

Seriously I LOL'd your post. People whine about killings and theft? Yeah, people can make such a big deal about small issues right :P Dude, you just wrote one of the biggest QQ posts ever and cry about how people whine so much...

And, communism? Funny guy. Not only is that comparison another big QQ , but it also doesn't make any sense at all, since this: majority vote, is the opposite of communism, in which the government, or in this case Anet, defines what should happen.

I really don´t get why people hate this system so much, it is the best update in a big time, in fact, it´s the first one that doesn´t murder the game type it should improve.

How can this be abused? You can only report people you played with,. and the majority is needed, so just like democracy it is the best you can possibly get, even though it isn´t perfect.

rangersaurus · Sep 30, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The /Report system gets a resounding NO from me.

Reason: The vast majority of people are extremely prejudiced. They have their own notions on what should and should not be allowed... absolutely ZERO consideration for how others (even those they personally don't like) may choose to play for their own entertainment..... and will abuse a system like this toward those ends.
One alone isn't a problem.... but when you get a lot of people agreeing on the same ridiculous bias (as will often happen).... then it tends to get decided simply by weight of the majority. They impose their will on any would-be individuals who might not be like them... and destroy the game for them.

What we end up with is mob rule.... whereby the idiots with the most similarly idiotic friends control what does and does not happen in game... Leaving such power in the hands of children is ridiculous... and NO... it will not "sort itself out over time".... it will only end up with those same idiotic children in charge... and anyone with even a slightly contrary opinion on how things should be getting permabanned.

Ditch the report system.
Leave the leechers and the griefers to their business. Their fun will also make them enemies.... and if that bothers them then they will change their attitude. If it doesn't bother them.... then so what? Work around them. The majority of people don't do that, and if anything it just adds an unpredictable element to the game to make it more interesting. And honestly, people should be allowed to do such things, much as any given individual should be allowed to oppose them on their own terms.
The people screaming for the game to be policed for them are those who are too weak to deal with life as it comes and take matters into their own hands if necessary.

I mean... do I go crying to all and sundry because I live in a city where things DO get stolen and people DO get killed? Of course not. Honestly... I don't care. I make my own security measures to ensure I don't fall victim to such things... much as I'd expect anyone else to do, rather than whine to the police about it. I value my freedom more than my life or my material property.

Communism doesn't work.
Don't do it.

Seriously.

Where to start... even if people are prejudiced, you can;t assume that all of the biases people have are negative. It is more than possible for people to have biases for good. It is possible to for the community as a whole to band together and boot out the 'idiots' as you call them, the power works both ways. You have completely assumed that all of the power falls into the hands of a malevolent group of people, when you don't know if that is the case.

Even if I grant that the 'children' will have the power, leaving them to their own devices with no checks and giving the community as a whole no possible recourse to deal with it makes no sense at all. In fact, you stated that they should be able to have some mechanism of recourse:

Quote:

The people screaming for the game to be policed for them are those who are too weak to deal with life as it comes and take matters into their own hands if necessary.

This is exactly what the system is. It is a mechanism for individuals to take matter into their own hands and police themselves and not have other do it for them. And lastly:

Quote:

I mean... do I go crying to all and sundry because I live in a city where things DO get stolen and people DO get killed? Of course not. Honestly... I don't care. I make my own security measures to ensure I don't fall victim to such things... much as I'd expect anyone else to do, rather than whine to the police about it. I value my freedom more than my life or my material property.

What the hell does valuing freedom over your property and your life have to do with a system of reporting abuse in an MMORPG?

SotiCoto · Sep 30, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Being able to report harassment and foul language are vitally important to any good policing system for an online community. I second NoXiFy's comment about whispers.

Your link RedExed.

And what constitutes "foul language" is entirely subjective.
A hundred years or so ago I would have been belted repeatedly for saying "damn" in public.
Are you saying we should bring that back?

"Good policing systems" aren't necessary.

Take Phantasy Star Online for example.
By the end... the original was policed entirely by the players... not by design, but by simple matter of the fact that the staff couldn't effectively combat the hackers. Thus it fell to the benevolant hackers to fight back against the crackers... and in some respect that became the very fun of the game itself.
According to a friend of mine, even after my Dreamcast broke.... the clan I formed in PSO of benevolant hackers, sworn to protect the non-hackers from the PK-clans actually became quite large and widespread.... and I only wish I could have been there to see it.

But I would rather play in a system like that where the people AS INDIVIDUALS have the choice to fight back against the system AND others on their own terms..... than in a strictly policed Communist society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangersaurus

Where to start... even if people are prejudiced, you can;t assume that all of the biases people have are negative. It is more than possible for people to have biases for good. It is possible to for the community as a whole to band together and boot out the 'idiots' as you call them, the power works both ways. You have completely assumed that all of the power falls into the hands of a malevolent group of people, when you don't know if that is the case.

Honestly.... though I am flawed in that sometimes I will slip on the terms myself.... I am not one for believing in "good" things and "bad" things. Both need their chance to represent themselves... and even if you might consider a bias "good", it is still a prejudice that in the course of freedom and fairness has no business being there.
The community cannot band together and boot out the "idiots" for the simple reason that the idiots are in the majority... and tend to act as one if given half the chance.

Quote:

Even if I grant that the 'children' will have the power, leaving them to their own devices with no checks and giving the community as a whole no possible recourse to deal with it makes no sense at all. In fact, you stated that they should be able to have some mechanism of recourse:

Children are by definition weak as individuals.... Give them power in a group though, and they will wash over everything you've ever cared about and destroy it without a second thought.

Quote:

This is exactly what the system is. It is a mechanism for individuals to take matter into their own hands and police themselves and not have other do it for them. And lastly:

Oh... but it isn't an individual point any more.
In the past there was no interaction between complaints. One issue someone might have had stayed completely separate from the next person's issue. That was individual basis.
Now they all use the report... and even if I get reported by 20 different people for 20 different things that they all seem to dislike about me.... that still amounts to 20 reports against me...
People aren't individuals any more. The report function makes a lynch-mob of them.

Quote:

What the hell does valuing freedom over your property and your life have to do with a system of reporting abuse in an MMORPG?

The fact that I have worked my butt off playing Guild Wars.... accumulating items, exploring the game, gathering titles, training and improving my characters. I have dedicated time to that... playing the game as I wished to play it... And I can't afford to lose it all just because a bunch of people bundle together and decide that they don't like me... even if I barely even knew they were there in the first place, and was minding my own business.

HawkofStorms · Sep 30, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

The /report system is working GREAT, especially in RA, which it is seriously fixing.
I suspect most of the people complaining about it either
a) were the leechers or quiters themselves
or
b) haven't actually played any/much RA since the update.

I've played RA for ~5 hours so far, and let me tell you it is a LOT of fun now. I haven't been able to say that about RA for over a year when I started more competitve stuff like ABs, HA, and GvGs.

I Need Coffee · Sep 30, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

How is this going to affect people going into FA and the Quarry to work on their Cartographer title?

hyro yamaguchi · Sep 30, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The /report system is working GREAT, especially in RA, which it is seriously fixing.
I suspect most of the people complaining about it either
a) were the leechers or quiters themselves
or
b) haven't actually played any/much RA since the update.

I've played RA for ~5 hours so far, and let me tell you it is a LOT of fun now. I haven't been able to say that about RA for over a year when I started more competitve stuff like ABs, HA, and GvGs.

QFT

Haven´t AB´ed yet though, has that improved as well?

cebalrai · Sep 30, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

/report could use a little tweaking. Anet has a plan I'm sure.

Aside from that the only thing it's done is save ABs and RAs.

Excellent work. Pity it took so long, but Anet is on the right track for sure.

rangersaurus · Sep 30, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The fact that I have worked my butt off playing Guild Wars.... accumulating items, exploring the game, gathering titles, training and improving my characters. I have dedicated time to that... playing the game as I wished to play it... And I can't afford to lose it all just because a bunch of people bundle together and decide that they don't like me... even if I barely even knew they were there in the first place, and was minding my own business.

It sounds like you are just concerned with getting banned by a group for no reason. While this is a valid concern and one that I am sure many people are worried about, it doesn't necessarily mean the whole system should be removed. If there is a conscious effort to review cases and weed out the illegit case, then the system will function in a positive way. So I think there needs to be multiple checks to make sure a claim is fair and legit, but to scrap the system all together makes no sense.

allience · Sep 30, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

i was in an AB battle today and i saw the green msg that sum1 was reported for leeching. i have no idea who reported that person and i'm sure it was abusive because were were doing very well and nobody even complained about the said person leeching.

i think the system is flawed and will get abused by many kids playing this game. furthermore, u have to realize that ppl HAVE a life. ppl may need to afk for various reasons. hell even in our gvg team it has happened that sum1 had to afk in the middle of the match.

the worse part is the fact that ppl can report eachother even in pve. it's horrible that random ppl have that power over u. this system really takes out the fun from the game. i feel uneasy every time i join a group. on top of it, if i start suggesting some different skills or heroes, ppl take it as bad behavior and threatened to report me.

this will backfire on u ANet. theres a reason why communism didn't work. i don't know why i even bothered to make this post because i know that u will keep this system in place. and u won't even read my post because there are much more that approve of this system.

as for the ppl that claim to like this new feature, i give u 1 month until u start crying over the forums to have it removed. young ppl are attracted by new things but fail to foresee the consequences. this will be like 6v6 in heroes ascent, an epic fail that was supported at first, only to be hated shortly after.

bamm bamm bamm · Sep 30, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I've only tried it in alliance battles, but so far it works like a dream. I don't know if it does this already as I haven't tried it, but you might want to disallow reporting until, say, 10 seconds after the match has started. Sometimes I get this weird lag that holds me in the spawn point until the gates open, which might be misconstrued as leeching. Other than that it's great.

Punches · Sep 30, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I think you guys are definitely onto something with this system, and I'm interested to see how it pans out once all the tweaks have been made. I am pretty much a solely PvE player so my concerns/suggestions are as follows:

1: Not having alot of experience in PvP, I do enjoy testing builds out and playing in RA for fun from time to time (always using builds with a win in mind, or a contribution to the team, never for griefing). I am hesitant to do so now as I'm fearfull of being reported because the build I am experimenting with is unpopular. My account has always been in good standing and I would like to make sure it stays that way.

2: I would like to see the reasons for a report in PvE, specifically towns/outposts, more clearly defined in the report menu. There is currently no clear way to send a report of someone attempting to buy/sell accounts, repeatedly selling/buying in allchat, etc.

3: It would help my understanding of the system if we were a bit more informed on how it works on your end. I may have overlooked this info if it has been posted elsewhere, but when a report is sent to you is it accompanied by a screenshot (so that we should report verbal abuse, spamming, etc. while the offence is still visible on our screen)? Is it prioratized by how many different players report someone for the same offence? I want to be sure if I am reporting someone for what I feel is a legitimate reason that it isn't going to come back around and bite me on the rear as a false report.

Thanks for always taking our concerns and opinions into consideration. I look forward to a finished system that can help keep Guild Wars a friendly, social environment.

-Naughty Vampire God

lyra_song · Sep 30, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Need Coffee

How is this going to affect people going into FA and the Quarry to work on their Cartographer title?

Yes. Gaile i think this issue needs to be addressed.

glountz · Sep 30, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I disagree 100%
The game was just fine without the report system. People played, had fun... all was well in the world. Likewise... there were leechers who don't care too much for the game but just wanted the points.... and likewise were after their kind of fun. There are "griefers" and spammers who likewise are doing what they consider fun.

Considering how much the RA and AB districts have grown this week, that people complained about leeching and leaving, you're wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

What the report command is doing though.... is trying to bring about Communism.... and the funny thing about Communism is that it is quite seriously elitist. 51% of the community can now have fun at the expense of the other 49% .... Does that sound good to you? It doesn't to me. Does it sound NECESSARY to you? It certainly doesn't to me.

You obviously don't know anything about communism to make such a lousy comparison. A virtual world were denouncement would be the rule would ressemble more to Mccarthyism, USA 1950's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I believe the presence of the griefers and leechers is a SMALL price to pay for a fun and secure game... where one needn't fear every moment that a mob of idiots with power far beyond what they should have is going to charge in and slam down the report function just because they don't agree with the way one person chooses to have their fun or go about general business.

To the definition of many, leechers and and leavers were representing a great insecurity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

I value freedom.
Every time a freedom is taken away... yes, I resent it greatly.
Every time a freedom is taken away to compensate for the weakness of a few people and their inability to cope with their surroundings.... THAT is when it goes WAY too far.

You don't value freedom. You value anarchism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The point people are making is that they are too weak to just cope with the way the game goes, and would rather sacrifice their freedom for protection. I personally cannot justify such a course of action... and will quite gladly fight for my right to be "disrespectful", irrespective of whether I act on that right or not.

You obviously are too weak to cope with the current system. Oh, you have no more insurance to be a jerk without consequences now? My bad. I won't cry for you.

Mac Sidewinder · Sep 30, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I think some people need to look up the word communism and read its meaning. "A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members." Now what does this have to do with the new report system?

I think its a good idea. If people are abusing others or the game then they need to be punished. Too many people respond with "use the chat filter", "use the ignore list". Evidentally this is not working well enough or it would not have come to the point of having to have a report system.

There does need to be come sort of check and balances to make sure that this system is not abused and I'm sure that is what Anet is now trying to do.

How is my being able to report someone of abuse or harassment an infringement on your ability to play the game the way you want. Unless thats the way you want to play the game. Which would be wrong in the first place.

If you are worried that the majority of the people may dictate how the game is played then welcome to a Democratic society. But you have to remember that in such a society there are checks and balances that govern how and when such changes are made. If Anet didn't listen to the majority then they would simply be cutting their own throats. And evidentally the majority are tired of all the crap that has been going on and want something done about it.

If people can't police their own actions then I guess its time that someone else does.

You can post the flames below.

Zehnchu · Sep 30, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

I don’t think any report that is dismissed should go unpunished. If a persons report against another player doesn’t result action taken upon them, then that person who did the reporting should be punished more severely. This will make people who use this command more reasonable for their actions.

This also should apply to those who go to just to report 50 bots a day. If one report turns out that one person out of 50 isn’t a bot at all then the person who did the reporting should be punished and most severely since mistakes can be made and honest people accounts can be in risk of being banned.

Also those players who are legit farmers and not botters names should be put on a list to automatically excluded them from further false reports of them being summated against them. And a punishment to the person who reported it.

There are cases where all players really need to think twice before they /report if you let the majority of people off the hook for false or dismissed /reporting you are just going to create a new problem.

Also I think Anet needs to sit down and discuss what exactly and define what they consider as /reportable offences and punishments according to the new command before fully implantation. And also add that to the main sit as well as at the log in warning people about use and misuses of the /report system. The more people made aware the less abuse will take place.

If you are going to implement then it something that should be taking lightly and the use of /report should be used for legitimate reasons only and action be taken of those who break the rules and abuse the /report system equally.

Punches · Sep 30, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The point people are making is that they are too weak to just cope with the way the game goes, and would rather sacrifice their freedom for protection.

Um, no-one ever had the "Freedom" to leech, spam, verbally abuse, scam, or grief. These are things that have always been against the ULA and the fact that alot of people refused to abide by it is irrelevant. What you are calling a removal of "Freedom" is simply a tool with which to enforce rules that have always been in place. It would be great if it wasn't neccessary to enforce them in such a way, if the ingame society was such that each individual player took responsibility to be self-enforcing, but that was and is far from the case.

Now if your point is that in impleminting these tools we are doing so at the risk of being faslely reported (for running an unpopular build, lagging being confused as leeching, or other things which are not supposed to be covered by this system but may be affecting innocent peoples accounts anyway), then although your argument was beyond extremely melodramatic, I would say I somewhat agree with that aspect of it. However it is a very new system and the Dev team is already asking for feedback and stating that it will go under several reforms, and I have confidence that in the end we will have a system which balances the ability to report people who truly deserve it for violating the ULA, while at the same time takes steps to avoid abuse and protect innocent players from being victims of that abuse.

Mac Sidewinder · Sep 30, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

Also I think Anet needs to sit down and discuss what exactly and define what they consider as /reportable offences and punishments according to the new command before fully implantation. And also add that to the main sit as well as at the log in warning people about use and misuses of the /report system. The more people made aware the less abuse will take place.

I fully agree with Zehnchu's point. People need to know exactly (very specific) what is considered a reportable offense. And if they submit false reports that there will be consequences.

Servant of Kali · Sep 30, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Report system in RA is OK. Not perfect but it's ok.

Fort Aspenwood leechers removal is inadequate. You need 4 people IIRC. That's really difficult to get considering how lazy and mute some people are. I tried FAing today to see how good it is with this system in effect. The result was: leavers and leecher. I was the *only* one who reported a leecher (which means I got penalty). No one else in the team said a word whole game. Pathetic.