Curse

Kusandaa · Nov 02, 2007, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

The Death Magic skills that *are* worthy of Elite aren't really directly Minion Master skills - though of course we can use them. If Order of Undeath had some way to cancel itself then I would easily list it as "great", it is VERY much worth the status in terms of raw damage but it is too easy to have something go wrong and have to sit and watch as you die and nothing anyone or anything can do about it.

I've NEVER died by OoU. I make sure I stay in the backline when I cast it, I kite, I self-heal. If I take too much damage and my self-heals aren't working well, the monks are going to heal me and I'm going to live. With vamp minions and let's say, N/Mo with Heal Area or a N/D with Mystic Regen+Infuse Condition+Dark Bond... (I still prefer the N/Mo, but that's me) and if your MM is careful... he's not gonna die easily.

Anyways, any good elite has a backdraw or counter, it's pretty much normal.

blue.rellik · Nov 02, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

I still stand by what I said, I'll even say there are still no good elites for a MM. I qualified that by saying (and what people jumping on me happily ignored - only bolding the part that was easy to bash) that the skills were not bad, just not worthy of being "elite".

You will note this isn't saying the skills are bad, just saying they aren't really "Elite". If anything the arguing going back and forth is quite strong evidence that they are *not* deserving of Elite status. Most of them are Elite because they unbalance *other* builds or if they were not they would be too easy to abuse with other elites.

The Death Magic skills that *are* worthy of Elite aren't really directly Minion Master skills - though of course we can use them. If Order of Undeath had some way to cancel itself then I would easily list it as "great", it is VERY much worth the status in terms of raw damage but it is too easy to have something go wrong and have to sit and watch as you die and nothing anyone or anything can do about it.

No point arguing, you're one of the spoilt people that expects an elite to do everything

A11Eur0 · Nov 02, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Jagged Bones is one of the most awesome MM elites I've seen...and I can't wait to get it. Ever since seeing the MM's in Duncan's dungeons pop up within seconds from it, and live forever until you killed the summoners, I've wanted it for my heroes.(because without huge micromanagement or just putting it on any shamblings that I pull up, it just won't work for me...I'm too impatient.)

I like my flesh golem too...seeing a yellow 75 pop up in the midst of a bunch of 19-25's is just fun, and being exploitable is just too cool.

dont feel no pain · Nov 02, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Hmmmm there's almost always an elite that would come in useful if you didnt think you would need one for example:

Warrior: Skull Crack
Ele: Elemental Attunment
Ranger: Practiced Stance
Mes: Signet of Illusions or Mantra of Recall
Necro: Plague Signet
Monk: Any are good
Rit: Ritual Lord
Sin: Assult enchantments
Derv: Wounding Strike
Para: Song of restoration

they're not spot on, but they all have good uses with the primary pro

Holly Herro · Nov 02, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

The best players, play without elites.

I know, that's why they call them elite skills. Because they're for people that ARE leet enough to not use them.

I'm confused :S

Crom The Pale · Nov 02, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

There are many many builds that work perfectly well with no elites, some work even better without an elite.

The vast majority however do need or can be improved by the addition of an elite skill.

That being said I find it quite humorous to complain about what other people chose to play with in a game. If your having problems with a mission/quest/dungeon and somebody joins your party with a skill bar that make the hench look like lvl 31 bosses then ok youve a right to complain, but on the whole it should not matter what skills other players chose to play with.

HawkofStorms · Nov 02, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

Hmmmm there's almost always an elite that would come in useful if you didnt think you would need one for example:

Warrior: Skull Crack
Ele: Elemental Attunment
Ranger: Practiced Stance
Mes: Signet of Illusions or Mantra of Recall
Necro: Plague Signet
Monk: Any are good
Rit: Ritual Lord
Sin: Assult enchantments
Derv: Wounding Strike
Para: Song of restoration

they're not spot on, but they all have good uses with the primary pro

I'll disagree with the ones in bold. Practiced stance and plague signet are both pretty aweful, and practiced stance can't be thrown on any bar since you need a prep that is worth using with it.
And well, sin attack chains are pretty rigid. You can't just throw a skill in there (though Assult enchantments is good). I'd say like Way of the Assassin or Flashing Blades is a good "might as well use it" sin skill.

Antheus · Nov 02, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

I still stand by what I said, I'll even say there are still no good elites for a MM. I qualified that by saying (and what people jumping on me happily ignored - only bolding the part that was easy to bash) that the skills were not bad, just not worthy of being "elite".

I always run [skill]Icy Veins[/skill]. Reasonably cheap, heavy damage, works even with no minions. I tried OoU, but came to conclusion that when MM is running with minions, it doesn't matter what you have - it's when MM doesn't have minions that they are wasted spot.

Tyla · Nov 02, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

and practiced stance can't be thrown on any bar since you need a prep that is worth using with it.

[skill]choking gas[/skill] mixed with [skill]flurry[/skill] and [skill]needling shot[/skill] mass interrupt ftw!

Snow Bunny · Nov 02, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I always run [skill]Icy Veins[/skill]. Reasonably cheap, heavy damage, works even with no minions. I tried OoU, but came to conclusion that when MM is running with minions, it doesn't matter what you have - it's when MM doesn't have minions that they are wasted spot.

QFT.

Soul Reaping Elites are almost always handy. Even Soul Bind, especially in RA, and especially with Parasitic Bond

Skyy High · Nov 02, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Sigh...yet again, all of the wishy-washy, "I have a build that does just fine without an elite!" posts don't prove anything. If you want to prove that a build does not need an elite, you need to post the build. Otherwise, we'll just sit here endlessly going, "N-uh!" "Ya-huh!" "N-uh!" "Ya-HUH!"

HawkofStorms · Nov 02, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

[skill]choking gas[/skill] mixed with [skill]flurry[/skill] and [skill]needling shot[/skill] mass interrupt ftw!

Umm read the post I'm quoting again. Praticed Stance can't "randomly" be thrown on any Ranger bar, which was my point. The build you just propossed isn't random, its set up deliberately to use that elite. When you set up a build around an elite, it easy to find synergy.

A11Eur0 · Nov 02, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

NO elites can be just 'thrown into" any bar. What are you talking about?

Barrage can't be tossed into any ranger bar...because it strips preparations and requires you to use a bow. Toucher ftl. Beastmaster ftl.

Some elites are more useful than others, such as pun shot and BHA, skull crack and flourish(into a non-adrenaline bar), icy veins, etc.

zwei2stein · Nov 02, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Sigh...yet again, all of the wishy-washy, "I have a build that does just fine without an elite!" posts don't prove anything. If you want to prove that a build does not need an elite, you need to post the build. Otherwise, we'll just sit here endlessly going, "N-uh!" "Ya-huh!" "N-uh!" "Ya-HUH!"

Yes, all it takes is single PvP grade eliteless build.

strcpy · Nov 02, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I've NEVER died by OoU. I make sure I stay in the backline when I cast it, I kite, I self-heal. If I take too much damage and my self-heals aren't working well, the monks are going to heal me and I'm going to live. With vamp minions and let's say, N/Mo with Heal Area or a N/D with Mystic Regen+Infuse Condition+Dark Bond... (I still prefer the N/Mo, but that's me) and if your MM is careful... he's not gonna die easily.

Never - not once? Never had Chilblains (or other enchant stripping) hit you with those enchants the only thing keeping you alive? Never had pop-ups that caused the monk to focus on you and let others die? Never cast it, be low on health, and then have one of the times the AI decides to mob you and die from it? Then you are either *really* lucky or do not play the build very often. I suppose you could only cast it when you are known to be safe from the above things, but then I am going to assume that you aren't saying the skill is so powerful that it is worth it to take even if you almost never get to use it (a mediocre skill that is used is better than an "vanquish all of area" button that is never touched). It either works great or you die - there is pretty much no in between.

I still find, over all, the most effective MM is to spam minion raising skills as often as possible keeping up 10 fresh minions. The areas this doesn't work well (corpse light areas) aren't going to be very good for a MM no matter what and I switch my build over to something else. I also tend to find the best minion buffs to be from another member of the party, not something I do. There is no *need* for any of the elites here and if they increase the speed in which you clear an area it will be so small as to be unnoticeable, though one can certainly use them.

Quote:

Anyways, any good elite has a backdraw or counter, it's pretty much normal.

Of course, everything in the game has a counter. Many have fairly heavy drawbacks yet are still quite good. OoV is *really* heavy on the drawback - it would be MUCH more useful if they reduced the sacrifice (and I assume they would also reduce the extra damage - which would be fine by me) or made some way to cancel it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

No point arguing, you're one of the spoilt people that expects an elite to do everything

Yea, that's obviously what I'm saying. That's why I always run Ursan Blessing now - I only need one skill!!!!1LOL!!!111!!

Curse You · Nov 02, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I can't think of a non-farming build that works better without elites, but I can think of a build that uses only elites.

Load this skill template:

OABDQ8xWB5B4lAC4lAeJ

ensoriki · Nov 02, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

Hmmmm there's almost always an elite that would come in useful if you didnt think you would need one for example:

Warrior: Skull Crack
Ele: Elemental Attunment
Ranger: Practiced Stance
Mes: Signet of Illusions or Mantra of Recall
Necro: Plague Signet
Monk: Any are good
Rit: Ritual Lord
Sin: Assult enchantments
Derv: Wounding Strike
Para: Song of restoration

they're not spot on, but they all have good uses with the primary pro

Charge, has use no matter where you go really, thats why Devona has it, cus if she didn't screw that >.>

Ele: True

ranger: no experience with skill

Necro: indeed

Rit: Spirits strength too!

Monk: Smite elites ftw?

Sin: lies, if you have no elite to use as an assassin
Shadow meld/AoD/Shadow Form >.>
Lol If your gonna die might aswell Shadow Form first *runs*

dont feel no pain · Nov 02, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I'll disagree with the ones in bold. Practiced stance and plague signet are both pretty aweful, and practiced stance can't be thrown on any bar since you need a prep that is worth using with it.
And well, sin attack chains are pretty rigid. You can't just throw a skill in there (though Assult enchantments is good). I'd say like Way of the Assassin or Flashing Blades is a good "might as well use it" sin skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Charge, has use no matter where you go really, thats why Devona has it, cus if she didn't screw that >.>

Ele: True

ranger: no experience with skill

Necro: indeed

Rit: Spirits strength too!

Monk: Smite elites ftw?

Sin: lies, if you have no elite to use as an assassin
Shadow meld/AoD/Shadow Form >.>
Lol If your gonna die might aswell Shadow Form first *runs*

Nobody's ever right, but i did try to choose a mayaswell throw it in elite for each.

and as for practiced stance, its pretty usful when used with any short duration prep such are barbed arrows or chocking gas, or even seeking arrows, and when it comes to long duration preps.... welll they last pretty god damm long with this elite, i think its ok, if not magebane shot is another good option.

Skyy High · Nov 02, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Burning Arrow would probably be the best, "screw it, throw it into my build," elite for a ranger who's using a bow and decently high marksmanship.