Curse

Diddy bow · Nov 07, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

Powersellers are the scum of the earth, as they inflate prices and live off other people's hard work while contributing nothing.

I spit on them.

Gotta love ignorance

Think about it, without power traders you be stuck in kamadan for half an hour trying to get 25K for your weapon when you could get 15K on the spot

, power traders help those who hate to trade.

Jetdoc · Nov 07, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Now, since you're basically waiting around for the good high-end opportunities but the mid-range revenue stream has dried up, the profit potential is vastly lower.

Now, for the established players in the market, I assure you it still plays quite well.

Exactly. For someone that is trying to get into the power trading game, the mid-range level is where they would normally start, which is all but dead.

It's very difficult to start in the high-end game (both bankroll and knowledge-wise), so the OP may be out of luck.

Malice Black · Nov 07, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Low req 15^50 crystallines(tyrian)/no negs are the only true high end items left. All the inscription stuff is mid table. Crystallines/Reavers etc are ok for the l33t people, but no true high end stuff.

Chthon · Nov 07, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I think I'll just repost my comments from the last thread on this sad topic:

Quote:

The "techniques" of power merching revolve around exploiting others' ignorance, omitting important facts to maintain that ignorance, and lying.

It's simple really: Find people who know less about market prices than you do and trade with them. Make sure not to let them learn the information that would allow them to make a more intelligent decision. If they ask you directly about something's value, lie.

I think you can probably tell from my tone what I think about "power merching" and the people who do it...

Malice Black · Nov 07, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think I'll just repost my comments from the last thread on this sad topic:

Wow..how closed minded can you be?

Trading etc is part of any MMO.

Antheus · Nov 07, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Wow..how closed minded can you be?

Trading etc is part of any MMO.

Wow... how naive can you be?

Exploiting ignorance is part of any power trading.

Malice Black · Nov 07, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Ignorance is not an excuse. They have all the info available to them if they choose to look. If they don't look, they are fair game.

hurric · Nov 07, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I wouldn't say it's fair but again it's just in game gold.

The "spit" comment refers to scammers I think. Someone in Kamadan was wanting to buy a scythe and I had a gold ancient req9 scythe with no great mods. He didn't have enough money so he's like how about scythe for scythe and his was a green +30hp of some sort. I decided not to rip him off and told him to just use the one he already has since it had much better stats than what i was about to trade him. the extra 10-15k I could've made I thought was not worth ripping off a new player.

Jetdoc · Nov 07, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The "techniques" of power merching revolve around exploiting others' ignorance, omitting important facts to maintain that ignorance, and lying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Exploiting ignorance is part of any power trading.

I'd love for you guys to explain by what you mean by "ignorance".

If there is any reference to "market value" in your definition, I'd also love for you to define what you consider to be "market value".

Snow Bunny · Nov 07, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Wow... how naive can you be?

Exploiting ignorance is part of any power trading.

discuss pl0x.

I is not seeing it.

Malice Black · Nov 07, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Ignorance..

They have access to this forum, or any other GW forum for that matter. Any player can get an item PC'd. Players have access to the knowledge of their guildies/friends etc

There is no reason why a person should not know the current going rate for any item. Hell, go to a trade center and watch the spam...

It is no ones responsibility to hold the hands of the newbies, they learn as they go. If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside by helping the newbies, then carry on. However, it doesn't give anyone the right to judge people who don't.

/end rant

If you got this far <3

Saphrium · Nov 07, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I'd love for you guys to explain by what you mean by "ignorance".

If there is any reference to "market value" in your definition, I'd also love for you to define what you consider to be "market value".

Got from wikipedia.

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge.

Market price is an economic concept with commonplace familiarity; it is the price that a good or service is offered at, or will fetch, in the marketplace; it is of interest mainly in the study of microeconomics. Market value and market price are equal only under conditions of market efficiency, equilibrium, and rational expectations.

Anything else you want to ask without searching wikipedia?

Jetdoc · Nov 07, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphrium

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge.

Market price is an economic concept with commonplace familiarity; it is the price that a good or service is offered at, or will fetch, in the marketplace; it is of interest mainly in the study of microeconomics. Market value and market price are equal only under conditions of market efficiency, equilibrium, and rational expectations.

So, you're saying that power traders exploit ignorance of microeconomics factoring in market efficiency, equilibrium and rational expectations?

Hmmm...I would say 99.999% of the players in the game would qualify as being "ignorant", and, as a result, 99.999% of the trades that occur in game involve exploiting ignorance.

If you aren't talking about a lack of knowledge of microeconomics, I'd love for you, Chthon or Antheus to better clarify that point than taking a textbook explanation from wikipedia...

The Herbalizer · Nov 07, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Power trading like thousands of ecto is pretty much over now.

Not enough high end items.

People more knowledgable now.

Too many people doing it.

If you hate power trading. Great! Thats one less person doing it.

While your trying to buy that nice weapon or armour through just playing the game or farming which both suck, I am sitting on thousands of ecto which have taken me barely any time to make.

I love remembering my old trades like buying an item for 60k worth 3.5 million, or 120k item worth 2.5 million. Have fun farming at 15k an hour though =)

Anet dont ban you for power trading so it is not a problem.

Antheus · Nov 07, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

discuss pl0x.

I is not seeing it.

Auctioneer mod in WoW.

Auctions there are considerably simpler, but also much faster.

Since there's a lot of activity, auctions move fast. Using auctioneer mod, it's possible to quickly scan entire auction house, and get automatic suggestions for under/overpriced items, based on sales history and median sale and b/o prices.

Many players do not use auctioneer, hence creating wide discrepancy in prices. These are the "ignorant" ones.

In GW, there is no fast moving auction house, so prices fluctuate much more drastically (or remain very stable, but overpriced).

The ignorance here doesn't imply stupidity - but for majority of players it's very hard to keep up with current market prices. Obviously, most know that crystalines are worth a lot, but what about more common rare skins? Dwarven and summit stuff plummeted since GW:EN, yet it can still fetch some cash.

Even the price check forums for mods, one of the more stable markets has many prices way off.

Real life example: stock market. There, laws exist that control insider trading (ignorant vs. in-the-know).

Profits made from non-resource based commodities rely on knowing more than the other. In perfect market, power trading cannot exist, since everyone knows the true value, and the supply. All prices instantly settle around the perfect supply/demand ratio, hence no profits can be made, assuming steady supply.

Pure trading, without own supply relies on making best use of understanding of the market itself, completely abstracted away from actual mechanics of supply and demand of resources themself - traders are not concerned with those, their efficiency will merely be reflected by how well they observe the changes in them.

Quote:

Ignorance is not an excuse. They have all the info available to them if they choose to look. If they don't look, they are fair game.

It's not an excuse. But it's the core principle behind power trading. Ignorance here would be better termed as uninformed. It doesn't imply stupidity or incompetence. For someone, the 5k made may be a fair price, even if the item will be resold for 5x the amount - the original seller is uncapable (for whichever reason) of selling for higher price.

This obviously doesn't cover scams (frozen ectos, birthday presents, ...), but trading unided items is not scam.

Foe · Nov 07, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Its ebayers that you hate OP not traders...its just that many of the cheaters pretend they are traders or "retired" traders and give them a bad name. Legitimate traders dont buy minis and Crystalines for k's of ecto lol. But yeah, Herb is right of course, the economy isnt active enough to make it worth the time anyway

Malice Black · Nov 07, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Herb, I customized the req9 crystalline, 1600ecto just wasn't enough for me...only paid just over 800e for it, so no great lose.

Power trading ^^^ not buying a Stygian for 100+40 then reselling for 100+60

I'm bad for only giving the guy 800e and then trying to double/triple my money?

Saphrium · Nov 07, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

So, you're saying that power traders exploit ignorance of microeconomics factoring in market efficiency, equilibrium and rational expectations?

Hmmm...I would say 99.999% of the players in the game would qualify as being "ignorant", and, as a result, 99.999% of the trades that occur in game involve exploiting ignorance.

If you aren't talking about a lack of knowledge of microeconomics, I'd love for you, Chthon or Antheus to better clarify that point than taking a textbook explanation from wikipedia...

I am saying you should go on wikipedia and change that definition if you think you can define the two terms better.

Did I even mention anything about how power traders presence affect the market efficiency, equilibrium and rational expectations? If I didn't, why did you say I was saying that? I am saying that you can find those definitions easily and you don't, instead begging the question and ask others to define them for you; stop putting words into people's mouths.

Chthon · Nov 07, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

If there is any reference to "market value" in your definition, I'd also love for you to define what you consider to be "market value".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster

Main Entry: fair market value
Function: noun
Date: 1901

: a price at which buyers and sellers with a reasonable knowledge of pertinent facts and not acting under any compulsion are willing to do business

Quote:

Originally Posted by United States Supreme Court, United States v. Cartwright, 411 U.S. 546 (1973)

The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetdoc

I'd love for you guys to explain by what you mean by "ignorance".

The lack of "reasonable knowledge of relevant/pertinent facts" is ignorance. Specifically the lack of the knowledge that they could themselves sell the item for significantly more to someone else (or buy the item for significantly less from someone else) and find that other trading partner faster than they obtain the difference in any other way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by diddy bow

Think about it, without power traders you be stuck in kamadan for half an hour trying to get 25K for your weapon when you could get 15K on the spot , power traders help those who hate to trade.

To an extent, you're right, but I suspect that you take it too far.

Time is money. Specifically, in GW, X time is worth however much gold you could farm in that period.
If I can farm at a rate of 1k/3min (doubtful but pretend I can), and if I sell you my weapon for 15k, then go farm for half an hour, and you spent the same half an hour time finding a buyer for 25k, then I end up in the same position I would have been in if I had spent the half hour finding the 25k buyer myself -- 1k/3min gold/time. That situation is just fine, presuming I like farming more than trade spamming and you like trade spamming more than farming.

But that's not what power merching is about. Power merching is about you buying that item for 15k then selling it off for 25k faster than I could farm the 10k difference. Power merching is about taking that 10k that I could get from another buyer and putting it in your pocket. Ultimately, power merching is about putting the "customers" in a worse position than they would be in if they found their own buyers/sellers and cut you out of the loop. It's a fundamentally parasitic exercise. Dress it up in whatever rationalizations you like, but you can't get around that simple fact.

And that brings me back to ignorance. Why on earth would I trade with you if I knew I could find a better price for myself (and do so faster than I could farm the difference)? I wouldn't. No one looking out for their own best interests would. Presuming I am looking out for my own best interests, the only way that transaction would happen is if I DID NOT KNOW that I could find a better price for myself (and do so faster than I could farm the difference). That is ignorance. And its presence in the power-merchs "customers" is an absolutely necessary precondition for power-merching.

Snype · Nov 07, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The lack of "reasonable knowledge of relevant/pertinent facts" is ignorance. Specifically the lack of the knowledge that they could themselves sell the item for significantly more to someone else (or buy the item for significantly less from someone else) and find that other trading partner faster than they obtain the difference in any other way.

To an extent, you're right, but I suspect that you take it too far.

Time is money. Specifically, in GW, X time is worth however much gold you could farm in that period.
If I can farm at a rate of 1k/3min (doubtful but pretend I can), and if I sell you my weapon for 15k, then go farm for half an hour, and you spent the same half an hour time finding a buyer for 25k, then I end up in the same position I would have been in if I had spent the half hour finding the 25k buyer myself -- 1k/3min gold/time. That situation is just fine, presuming I like farming more than trade spamming and you like trade spamming more than farming.

But that's not what power merching is about. Power merching is about you buying that item for 15k then selling it off for 25k faster than I could farm the 10k difference. Power merching is about taking that 10k that I could get from another buyer and putting it in your pocket. Ultimately, power merching is about putting the "customers" in a worse position than they would be in if they found their own buyers/sellers and cut you out of the loop. It's a fundamentally parasitic exercise. Dress it up in whatever rationalizations you like, but you can't get around that simple fact.

And that brings me back to ignorance. Why on earth would I trade with you if I knew I could find a better price for myself (and do so faster than I could farm the difference)? I wouldn't. No one looking out for their own best interests would. Presuming I am looking out for my own best interests, the only way that transaction would happen is if I DID NOT KNOW that I could find a better price for myself (and do so faster than I could farm the difference). That is ignorance. And its presence in the power-merchs "customers" is an absolutely necessary precondition for power-merching.

Calm down, this is just a game.

Anyway, if someone wants to sell me something for a less value then it is worth because they can get rid of it faster, thats not my problem. If they don't take the time to find out the real price of such item, thats not my problem.

So why is it bad to buy things at low prices again?