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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17   #541
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Good Job Anet!

i cant really see the big deal with pets leaving no corpses, doesnt affect me really much.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25   #542
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Originally Posted by Antheus
The numbers come from grind.

It wasn't until grind titles were added that player numbers went up. PvE = grind. The more, the better.

While GW was designed with different concept in mind, that has changed. The main attraction for masses is maxing out the titles. The main attraction of Diablo was item farming.

Who is upset over bp nerf? Tombs farmers. Nobody has mentioned Urgoz, for example. And tombs, of all places, which has poor loot, is very easily done with any build (this isn't 2005 anymore, hundreds of new skills were added), most of which are faster than bp.

As long as there is grind, players will flock to GW. And that's the bottom line. Just look at crying over loot scaling. Hard-core farmers ragequit, there was no impact on the rest.

I wonder what will happen once Ursan gets nerfed.
You ppl just are not getting my point. Stop nerfing everything, no pet corses is a stupid nerf and why does it affect me, the pve'r because somehow pvp has found a way to exploit it. I'm an so tired of my game being changed because of pvp. It's annoying. but whatever. I don't like the changes, I'm not impressed with the barrage buff. Keep your corpses but dont disable my skills either then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
In GW, skill nerf = player support. Believe it or not, PvP would utterly suck if nerfs and buffs weren't implemented every now and then. These current changes are a pretty good example that aNet DOES listen to players, provided those players know what they are talking about of course. Can't go game balancing around players who are baed.


Could be me, But I would have nerfed clumsiness instead of ineptitude tbh. The recharge on clumsiness is still insane.
My point exactly pvp vs pve, and of course the good of pvp ALWAYS out weighs the good of pve.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27   #543
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The one thing that sets gw apart from every other lammo mmo is it's PvP/PvE system... it works well and makes the game popular. Fighting each other is useless... why don't some of you try to hold your guilds together. /point /laugh /roar /flex /laugh
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29   #544
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I tried to read the whole thread but give up after 20 pages. Forgive me if my following points have already been made.

Like most people, I don't understand why the pet nerf is needed. If it is exploitable in PvP by Necro, then just don't start killing it the moment you see it! Kill the darn master. I thought you real players know how to select priority target unlike dumb monsters in PvE. So easy fix by a small change in gameplay tactic.

Now what's the point of sacrifying 2 skill slots to bring a pet in PvE? Just so you can have an idiot wandering around who does not deal much damage and is easy to be killed by lvl24+ monsters?

To those who keep saying certain builds are boring (like B/P is boring, MM is boring,...), you must be hating variety! You may not like it but there are certainly other people do. Why forcing people to only play few certain builds? Different people prefer different playstyles.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35   #545
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Thanks God they ain't touching the Dervs ...
[`] for sins.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37   #546
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Originally Posted by Taurucis
BLS: That was pretty much a stupid and unneeded change. Sins have an abundance of lead attacks and about... 4? 5? offhands. You're giving us a bottleneck here.
- It was too powerful with all the hexes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Exposed Defenses: ...Rigor Mortis?
- Rigor Mortis is much better, yes. Thankfully that would restrict the ganking Assassin to /N secondary and she wouldn't get attack speed boost from Warrior secondary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
HotO: This is a completely bucketbrained nerf, what's the point behind it? How about we remove the knockdown altogether or something and rename it to Useless?
- Maybe a bit heavy-handed, but deserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Impale: IMHO this one isn't that bad, but to make up for it the spell should be given full range.
- It's good that now there's a delay between massive spike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Trampling Ox: I don't have EotN so I don't really care much...
- The most epic argument ever. "Well, I don't have Warrior so I don't give a crap." "Well, I don't play PvP so I think Soul Reaping should give twice the energy it's giving now for my PvE Necro."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Way to make a hated class, be even more hated. <clapclapclap>
- Clearly the nerf was put because Mesmer should be hated class. Keep up the good work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Maybe this will make capping WoH in Thirsty River a little easier, heh heh.
- Aren't you funny guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Now that you've gone and done what players said to do... oh, a few MONTHS ago... how about you remove the bloody timer?
- Yup, can you believe it? They finally do as the community says and gets smacked in the face because of it! Must be a grateful job. I hope for their sanity they aren't reading this shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Barrage: You ruined my Margonite farming, a tiny little amount of damage gain to Barrage won't make up for it.
- Yeah, clearly a single casting of Splinter Weapon and Barrage should drop clump of monsters' health by 40%. Skills are powerful enough when they kill on one hit. Why don't they just give some Godmode cheat code so these jokers would stop the PvE whine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
EW: What's your deal with ruining every possible way I can make some GP, Anet?
- I really don't understand what Energizing Wind has to do with your GP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Magebane Shot: Good buff, but it's now about on par with D-Shot.
- I believe it's a bit better skill than D-Shot with half the recharge, cannot be blocked status and full damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Player Pets: Alright Anet, you've really taken the cake this time. If you want to smack rangers with a nerf so bad, why don't you just make it so that pets don't leave corpses in PvP?
- Um... I think this was more of nerf to Necromancers than Rangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
Again, I don't have EotN, so Mhenlo could be a meteor shower-divine healing monk specced in Healing for all I care.
- You're just trying hard to ignore all the good things ANET is doing to the game. Again, this was something that community suggested and ANET did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
I never thought I'd meet the day where I'd have more fun with WoW Model Viewer and GIMP than Guild Wars.
- Then why don't you gtfo to your WoW Model Viewer instead of coming here to troll, seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurucis
What's your plan Anet? Make all farming builds rely on grossly overpowered EotN skills? Good good, make my alliance and friends list hate me even more than they already do.
- I can tell you what's their plan with this update. Their aim to create balanced environment in PvP where there is no such lame shit as infinite energy healers, hex overload and thumpers with knockdowns and dazes on top of that. At least it should have appropriate cost.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37   #547
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You ppl just are not getting my point. Stop nerfing everything, no pet corses is a stupid nerf and why does it affect me, the pve'r because somehow pvp has found a way to exploit it. I'm an so tired of my game being changed because of pvp. It's annoying. but whatever. I don't like the changes, I'm not impressed with the barrage buff. Keep your corpses but dont disable my skills either then.
So you're tired of changes, and want more changes?

Yes, it sucks if you played one character and one build for the past 2 years. This isn't representative though.

Quote:
Now what's the point of sacrifying 2 skill slots to bring a pet in PvE? Just so you can have an idiot wandering around who does not deal much damage and is easy to be killed by lvl24+ monsters?
Pets are not MM's minion fodder. That was just a side effect.

Quote:
To those who keep saying certain builds are boring (like B/P is boring, MM is boring,...), you must be hating variety! You may not like it but there are certainly other people do. Why forcing people to only play few certain builds? Different people prefer different playstyles
The self-contradiction in this post is huge.

BP still works just as it has. Everywhere, where mobs leave corpses. The point of BP is having a tank with orders necro providing healing and extra damage. Add a GFTE into the mix and possibly barbs/MoP and you've got a BP.

Biggest problem is that BP isn't dead, or even affected by this. Look into variety, and realize how BP can vary to work around the pets change without smallest problem.

Except for one place where there are no corpses.
Last edited by Antheus; Nov 14, 2007 at 05:43 PM // 17:43..
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38   #548
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Makes me want to play a Paragon...

and A/D is next... Dervs will get nerfed in PvP soon... someone will complain to anet that an A/D wiped their whole party
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39   #549
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Originally Posted by DDL
Nobody is refuting this, but you do have to appreciate that from the PvE perspective it often looks like a long line of "if it ain't broke, change it for the worse". Essential changes to the overused PvP skill builds propagate over into the PvE realm where the problems were usually not there in the first place.

So at least try to understand WHY people find this sort of thing annoying.


Also, to be perfectly honest, you can't go balancing a game around players who are top-level AWESOME, either: you end up making a game where you need to be twitchy as a ferret and twice as cunning just to get anywhere. And the general incidence of such people in the game buying population is...small. And most of them are playing counterstrike.


"Baed" is an entirely relative concept, to boot: if someone can't do stuff you can, are they bad? Does that make you "average"? Everyone has their own definition of "bad", and the definitions rarely overlap.
I can agree with you on this one considering they balance the skills based on the 8v8 gvg combat, Considering that maybe this is a big maybe that 1/4 of GW is PvP only it is prolly less than that. I do not see how GvG is considered High End PvP (lets go gvg guys and hold out till VOD and hope we kill more archers, LOL that is not even close to high end combat nor fun in anyway) the same goes for HA 8v8 builds lets dance around and wait till their monks are out of energy. Come on how and the hell is this considered high end PvP combat??? Lets make a HoH holding build and stand their healing the ghostly hero non stop for 10 mins WOOT. Again not even considered remotly high end in my book and alota others as well.

Anet is balanceing the game based on a small precentage of players and baseing that on a smaller pvp battle base, Ha and GvG. This kind of balance is not balance in any manner they fix 1/4 of the GW communitys complaints and only cause more problems for the other 3/4 of the GW population that thinks the same way I do.

How is VOD and Heal the ghostly untill we win Considered a form of Fun or High End????????????

High End PvE will teach you more about the game than a 20 min VoD gvg ever will.

the only way to fix the problems with overpowered pvp builds is to seperate the PvP balance from PvE this would easily please the MAJORITY of the GW population.

Dont get me wrong a good PvP battle is always fun but kiteing around for 20 mins waiting and waiting for the right time to (GANK) is not fun at all. and that seems is what has happened to GvGs and HA.
Last edited by IslandHermet; Nov 14, 2007 at 05:45 PM // 17:45..
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43   #550
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Originally Posted by moriz
assassin changes: really, these do not affect pve'ers because let's face it: pve assassins don't use these skills.
Just because you probably don't use these skills doesn't mean that nobody uses them. I actually run all 3 of those skills in my PvE knockdown build, so this nerf just about made me tear my hair out.

First of all, HoTO was severly limited in the first place; it's only a knockdown if you can find somebody all alone. If there's even one pet/spirit/ally near him, this skill degenerates into a dual strike that does 18 points of damage max with 12 points in dagger strikes. Even a normal dagger attack does more damage than that, which is ridiculously pathetic.

Secondly, assassins are supposed to be the class that shadow steps in, spikes a target for damage, and then retreats to safety. Making the casting time of impale 1 second instead of 1/4 second removes all its capacity as spike damage. The assassin basically has to shadow step in, unload his full dagger attack chain, which takes a decent bit of time anyway, and then has to stand around and get wailed on while waiting for impale to cast. And considering that impale has half range, this forces the sin to stay near his target for an inordinate amount of time. This completely contradicts the purpose of having the sin class in the first place.

The nerf to trampling ox was not quite as bad as the others, but if you look at the amount of damage it does now compared to the other dual attack skills, it still does a relatively small amount of damage for the utility it provides (eg, must hit a crippled foe to knockdown, where other skills that do more damage are unblockable, inflict unconditional deep wound and bleeding, cause splash damage, etc...). Keeping the knockdown conditional while decreasing its damage seems like overkill.

However, I wasn't too disappointed to see black lotus strike nerfed; I was actually kind of glad. Everyone and their mom used a BoA sin with black lotus strike in PvP, so maybe now we'll see some more original PvP builds instead of the same cookie-cutter crap, now that BoA sins can't bypass the lead attack and manage their energy at the same time.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46   #551
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the only way to fix the problems with overpowered pvp builds is to seperate the PvP balance from PvE this would easily please the MAJORITY of the GW population.
Ursan Blessing.

One skill PvE.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51   #552
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Originally Posted by Antheus
Ursan Blessing.

One skill PvE.
-.- Ugh...Please stop mentioning this.

It only exists in GWEN. Not everyone has GWEN.

Even within those who own GWEN, not everyone uses this skill.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51   #553
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Originally Posted by Burning Blade
Like most people, I don't understand why the pet nerf is needed. If it is exploitable in PvP by Necro, then just don't start killing it the moment you see it! Kill the darn master. I thought you real players know how to select priority target unlike dumb monsters in PvE. So easy fix by a small change in gameplay tactic.
- Well, the pet can die pretty easily from AoE and Ranger has no intention to keep it alive because it will be used to create minions, which will then fuel energy of Necros. Have you ever played PvP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning Blade
Now what's the point of sacrifying 2 skill slots to bring a pet in PvE? Just so you can have an idiot wandering around who does not deal much damage and is easy to be killed by lvl24+ monsters?
- For the record nothing has changed for Rangers who bring pet. Have you played PvE after the patch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning Blade
You may not like it but there are certainly other people do. Why forcing people to only play few certain builds? Different people prefer different playstyles.
- Oh wow... you think increasing the power of, say, Assassin gankers and decreasing power of viable counters has nothing to do with the fact that serious GvG teams are forced to use third Monk as a runner, lest they risk their base getting wiped by a single Assassin.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52   #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- It was too powerful with all the hexes.
Umm, the thing I didn't like was that an off-hand got taken away. There's tons of lead attacks out there but only a few off-hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Rigor Mortis is much better, yes. Thankfully that would restrict the ganking Assassin to /N secondary and she wouldn't get attack speed boost from Warrior secondary.
That's another skill I need to buy for my assassin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Maybe a bit heavy-handed, but deserved.
Well, it's not like it's an unconditional knockdown... It was one of the few Assassin skills that needed good judgement to use. You couldn't just hop in and spam 12345 and expect to kill your target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- It's good that now there's a delay between massive spike.
Eh, isn't that the point of Assassins? Spike damage, and then run for your life? That's sort of like taking away their essence... might as well play a Dervish/hammer warrior if you want to do slow killing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- The most epic argument ever. "Well, I don't have Warrior so I don't give a crap." "Well, I don't play PvP so I think Soul Reaping should give twice the energy it's giving now for my PvE Necro."
Actually, since I've never used Trampling Ox before, I'm not sure how the skill synergy was pre-nerf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Clearly the nerf was put because Mesmer should be hated class. Keep up the good work.
Well, what would you do to a class that was completely ridiculed and neglected? Make it even worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Aren't you funny guy
Sometimes, I like to say that "I am more sarcastic than sarcasm incarnate."

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Yup, can you believe it? They finally do as the community says and gets smacked in the face because of it! Must be a grateful job. I hope for their sanity they aren't reading this shit.
Actually, the "SR doesn't trigger on spirits" was suggested a few months ago, but Anet put the SR timer instead. So now that SR doesn' trigger on spirits, shouldn't the timer be removed? That would give the players exactly what they asked for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Yeah, clearly a single casting of Splinter Weapon and Barrage should drop clump of monsters' health by 40%. Skills are powerful enough when they kill on one hit. Why don't they just give some Godmode cheat code so these jokers would stop the PvE whine?
Well, Splinter Weapon and Barrage were like peanut butter and jelly, with Splinter-Barrage being your PB&J. What Anet did is like completely liquifying the jelly but making the peanut butter easier to spread on your bread, if you get what I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- I really don't understand what Energizing Wind has to do with your GP.
The 3-man Foundry farm. IIRC it can't be done too easily if EW isn't maintained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- I believe it's a bit better skill than D-Shot with half the recharge, cannot be blocked status and full damage.
They're roughly on par, with Magebane Shot coming out a little higher.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Um... I think this was more of nerf to Necromancers than Rangers.
A nerf to both, you could say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- You're just trying hard to ignore all the good things ANET is doing to the game. Again, this was something that community suggested and ANET did it.
Again, I haven't used to EotN Mhenlo, so it doesn't really affect me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- Then why don't you gtfo to your WoW Model Viewer instead of coming here to troll, seriously?
Because I'm not on my main computer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aapo
- I can tell you what's their plan with this update. Their aim to create balanced environment in PvP where there is no such lame shit as infinite energy healers, hex overload and thumpers with knockdowns and dazes on top of that. At least it should have appropriate cost.
Umm.. actually, I was talking more about PvE when I put out my thoughts on the update o_O;
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54   #555
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shadowmage61, for Pve: Moebius --> Death Blossom spam with critical agility. That wipes the floor with playing SP crap in PvE, so stop whining and go run it.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01   #556
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Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
shadowmage61, for Pve: Moebius --> Death Blossom spam with critical agility. That wipes the floor with playing SP crap in PvE, so stop whining and go run it.
That's exactly the kind of crap that gets skills nerfed in the first place, when everybody uses the same freaking build. Plus, if I wanted to play a char that did massive AoE damage, I'd make a nuker. I play assassin to single out important targets and kill them while my team deals with the rest... in other words, I play the assassin class like it was meant to be played. And don't assume that I use the cookie-cutter shadow prison crap in my PvE build, I actually come up with my own builds instead of copying the ones that everyone else is using.
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03   #557
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
-.- Ugh...Please stop mentioning this.

It only exists in GWEN. Not everyone has GWEN.

Even within those who own GWEN, not everyone uses this skill.
took the words right out of my mouth even the UgH.

I like how he comments on the ursan for some reason and not on the how do people consider VoD/Ganking/Heal ghostly High end PvP????
this skill balance based on such a limited player base is well, just funny and I love it when they cry the cookie cutters got nerfed.
If only everyone made there own builds and did not use Wiki or Guru build fourms we would have a lot less cookie cutters which in turn equals less build nerfs because not everyone is running the exact same skill bars. who woulda thought.
Last edited by IslandHermet; Nov 14, 2007 at 06:12 PM // 18:12..
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07   #558
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I think the key thing here is to realise that PvE people don't want the game to be EASIER.

They don't want it to be harder, either, fer sure: so changes to skills intended to close PvP loopholes which do nothing to PvE other than make it marginally (or sometimes less marginally) harder are annoying.

It would be nice, honestly, if it could remain basically the SAME.

As has been pointed out, PvE does not change, or at least: the E part doesn't. Monsters are predictable, you can formulate plans, it's all good.

PvP does change. PvP HAS a metagame of build and counter-build. PvE doesn't have much of a metagame, but is nonetheless dragged down and forced to comply with the restrictions enforced on the PvP metagame.

Sometimes, and fairly rarely, someone will discover a loophole in PvE (like the hilarious Splinterbarrage) which clearly is out of balance, if fun...and this will get nerfed. Fair enough, it really WAS a bit of an exploit. This rarely has a significant effect on PvP, though: the environments are too different. I doubt barrage has..well, any place in a PvP environment.

Essentially, though: try and understand that "not wanting skills to be made weaker for no PvE-based reason" is NOT the same thing as saying "MAKE PvE EASIER PLOX".

PvE does have balance, and to be honest, the balance PvE has right now is more or less about right: assuming you're in a very coordinated group of clever peeps, you can breeze through most stuff..in which case you can slowly lower the number of people in your party to give yourself a challenge. If you can't get a coordinated group of clever peeps, you can STILL manage to do ok if you just flood the map with enough stupid PUG peeps, or henchies. You still get a sense of achievement.

For those who are really pimp, they can do it all again in HM. Great!

It's the challenge that makes it fun, not the winning. As noted, if winning was everything, we'd all be running around pretending to be bears.

Is everyone? Nope.


It's just worrying to see changes being made to balance PvP with no apparent reference to their concommitant effects on PvE.

Also, the pet thing..is ugly. UGLY. :P
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07   #559
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Man, they killed the dmg on horns :S. Oh well
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Old Nov 14, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowmage61
That's exactly the kind of crap that gets skills nerfed in the first place, when everybody uses the same freaking build. Plus, if I wanted to play a char that did massive AoE damage, I'd make a nuker. I play assassin to single out important targets and kill them while my team deals with the rest... in other words, I play the assassin class like it was meant to be played. And don't assume that I use the cookie-cutter shadow prison crap in my PvE build, I actually come up with my own builds instead of copying the ones that everyone else is using.
So then why are you so bummed about these SP nerfs. Everybody using a build doesn't get it nerfed. The build being overpowered gets the nerf. Alot of warriors use mending.. has it been nerfed?

In PvE i'd much rather see an assassin using moebius builds to constantly pressure mobs. It's not like your party of 8 can't take a monster down fast enough so why have a char slot doing that once every 20 secs?
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