Curse

Spike · Nov 14, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Umm... GW isn't pay to play. Once you buy it, that's all the money a.net is ever going to get. If anything, they want everybody gone to keep server prices cheaper.

Yes but if they have quit playing GW due to all the nerfs thier sure as hell not going to be buying GW2 so my point is valid. So you fail, try again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

PvPers aren't calling for nerfs in order to obtain a flat game with a single build which they will face the same thing day in day out. They're calling for nerfs to avoid that fate.

But its a self fullfiling arguement. Asking for nerfs WILL result in a flat game regardless of WHY you do it. This game is going the way SWG went. I can see the GW CU comeing and theres nothing that can be done. This SB may very well of been the first bit.

Llint · Nov 14, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

If you're correct, then it's lack of player skill bringing these nerfs and not the builds themselves. Back during the infamous IWAY days, when IWAY seemed to be everywhere, there were periods when a good group or guild got together (a few in fact) and completely dominated Halls without an IWAY build. IWAY didn't stand a chance against some of them. IWAY wasn't as overpowered, it's just that most PvPers might have sucked (this may include some of you, go figure with 4 million copies sold, someone's got to suck at PvP) to the point that they COULD NOT overcome IWAY. I remember talking with people sitting in halls laughing at IWAYers coming in and getting their asses handed to them. Eventually another team build would come in a beat them or would eventually come across a really good group that was in fact playing IWAY. When non-IWAY players (that were good) wanted to take Halls, they usually could. If you couldn't, then maybe you weren't good enough to take it in the first place as opposed to the other build being uber.

Lack of player skill and/or laziness. There are still people that play without using cookie cutter builds that can at least win a few matches against said 'overpowered' builds. Either Izzy or Ensign (maybe Gaile) was talking the other day about how so many guild teams sit until Victory or Death before even doing anything. How friggin lame is that. That is pure unadulterated laziness. Even if you lose or it takes a considerable amount of effort to go on the offensive, at least you would be playing and trying.

Do you even know why people wait til VoD to win? If not, then I suggest you take a hour break, do some research then come back to this thread.

Sekkira · Nov 14, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

If you're correct, then it's lack of player skill bringing these nerfs and not the builds themselves. Back during the infamous IWAY days, when IWAY seemed to be everywhere, there were periods when a good group or guild got together (a few in fact) and completely dominated Halls without an IWAY build. IWAY didn't stand a chance against some of them. IWAY wasn't as overpowered, it's just that most PvPers might have sucked (this may include some of you, go figure with 4 million copies sold, someone's got to suck at PvP) to the point that they COULD NOT overcome IWAY. I remember talking with people sitting in halls laughing at IWAYers coming in and getting their asses handed to them. Eventually another team build would come in a beat them or would eventually come across a really good group that was in fact playing IWAY. When non-IWAY players (that were good) wanted to take Halls, they usually could. If you couldn't, then maybe you weren't good enough to take it in the first place as opposed to the other build being uber.

Lack of player skill and/or laziness. There are still people that play without using cookie cutter builds that can at least win a few matches against said 'overpowered' builds. Either Izzy or Ensign (maybe Gaile) was talking the other day about how so many guild teams sit until Victory or Death before even doing anything. How friggin lame is that. That is pure unadulterated laziness. Even if you lose or it takes a considerable amount of effort to go on the offensive, at least you would be playing and trying.

You completely missed the point. Why do you think these non-IWAY teams could go in and shit all over IWAY? Because the only thing in Tombs was: IWAY. All you have to do it bring something in like, oh I don't know Feast of Corruption. Ball up and everyone explodes dead.

Fates · Nov 14, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llint

Do you even know why people wait til VoD to win? If not, then I suggest you take a hour break, do some research then come back to this thread.

Yes, they do it because with today's "balanced" builds, neither team can effectively do anything against the other team. Both teams can counter anything the other team does. So they wait for vod and hope they can kill faster than the other team.

A unique build, that maybe even allows a split or spike gets nerfed because the "balanced" build cant counter it. Thus you end up with more and more balanced builds, with everyone waiting for vod. Sure sounds fun to me.

CyberNigma · Nov 14, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

You completely missed the point. Why do you think these non-IWAY teams could go in and shit all over IWAY? Because the only thing in Tombs was: IWAY. All you have to do it bring something in like, oh I don't know Feast of Corruption. Ball up and everyone explodes dead.

lol so what you're saying is IWAY needed to be nerfed not because it was overpowered but because it was 1) easy to play, 2)very popular, and 3)too easy to beat with another build had anyone actually tried using another build?

wow, in that case it sounds like it's popularity that calls for the nerfs, not being overpowered, because from what you're saying IWAY was pretty damn easy to beat, and with most people playing it, you had a good probability of encountering it and beating it (assuming you didn't play IWAY yourself). So the calls to nerf IWAy were, what, an attempt to 'help' the poor souls that kept playing IWAY (obviously an inefficient build if you could roll over it like that)? How thoughtful of the elite portion of the pvp community :-) charity..

EDIT: Good answer Fates...

Balanced...equals...boring...

Sekkira · Nov 14, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Yes, they do it because with today's "balanced" builds, neither team can effectively do anything against the other team. Both teams can counter anything the other team does. So they wait for vod and hope they can kill faster than the other team.

A unique build, that maybe even allows a split or spike gets nerfed because the "balanced" build cant counter it. Thus you end up with more and more balanced builds, with everyone waiting for vod. Sure sounds fun to me.

Balanced? It's not balanced. Nobody said it was balanced.

ensoriki · Nov 14, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

actually I need to thank izzy somewhat.

I will not open Guild Wars tommorow

Instead I will work on my graphics are and Programming.

I might play Nostale, if I get a bit bored from those.

Sekkira · Nov 14, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

lol so what you're saying is IWAY needed to be nerfed not because it was overpowered but because it was 1) easy to play, 2)very popular, and 3)too easy to beat with another build had anyone actually tried using another build?

wow, in that case it sounds like it's popularity that calls for the nerfs, not being overpowered, because from what you're saying IWAY was pretty damn easy to beat, and with most people playing it, you had a good probability of encountering it and beating it (assuming you didn't play IWAY yourself). So the calls to nerf IWAy were, what, an attempt to 'help' the poor souls that kept playing IWAY (obviously an inefficient build if you could roll over it like that)? How thoughtful of the elite portion of the pvp community :-) charity..

EDIT: Good answer Fates...

Balanced...equals...boring... gameplay = who can get the first kill in. why not just /roll it? It's a hell of a lot quicker.

33% IAS and 10+ regeneration thanks to your dead pets on the class that has the best dps already. C + Space at that point dealt insane amounts of damage and while Warrior's have the best armour, they also have maximum regeneration. On a shout. Which cannot be removed.

Sure it only lasted about a minute, but how many teams can deal with 8 Warriors with 16 in Axe/Sword/Hammer dealing out crazyass damage each, on top of that was the attack skill use on the rest of their bar, which only served to increase the damage moreso. Matches wouldn't last longer than a minute.

A balanced build stood no chance against that kind of dps. The solution? Direct counter. FoC spike. A build that wouldn't ever be considered as viable anywhere else but IWAY but required a decent amount of coordination to get right.

Now tell me, how was IWAY not overpowered?

Wut Wut · Nov 14, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

I can deal with the SR nerf.....but WTF is up with the pet thing...I mean....seriously. How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO do pets not leave corpses, and how the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO was that exploited in PvE or PvP or w/e? GG on that one.

Red Sonya · Nov 14, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasuke The Betrayer

It might actually be a good idea to buff some unused skills, geez. Might make this game more interesting. Like when they buffed conjure fire,lightning etc, it started getting some use. I can't believe the pet nerf, what was that for? They should be looking at ursan, ffs.

Holy crap, Edit:

EW did get hit bad. I'm just gonna wonder how this is gonna affect many ranger builds. Also, the horn of ox nerf was fricking overkill. 15..27 to 1...11?

Haha I am simply loving it. SINS got spanked in the bud. hardy har har. That was a great BALANCE for SINS IZZY I'm lovin you tonight.

They should rethink necro SR though again since they removed spirits from them and pet corpses. Should go back to regular necro SR like it was before all the SR nerfing started.

Seems rangers got loving again after they nerfed splinter weapon, now they give them more power with that Barrage again. Rangers still need some heavy nerfing to interupts and recharges of them.

Was sad to see Word of Healing get nerfed down in healing power. My hero monks were lovin it. I used to use Glimmering Light, but, since they did improve WOH man my hero monks can finally last through some tough battles.

Overall a decent balancing act. I think they still need to bring Chiliblains back to what it used to be. Obsidain Flesh and Shadow Form Ele's are now even more of a pain in the arse in FA.

I MP I · Nov 14, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I haven't played in like two months or so. Guess what? I have no problem with this particular update. If and when, I return it still won't hurt me. Player Pets no longer leaving exploitable corpses is strange (pretty sure I'll manage). What about non-charmed animals that die in aoe? Not that I care just curious.

All this thread/update has done is proven that people get too attached to a single skill/build, and once its nerfed whine about it or threaten to rage gw if its not changed back to how it was. Makes me miss the old days when people thought up their own unique builds to own face with. Anyone can come up with new builds, just requires a little time and effort. Oh and this pic reminds me of typical whiners.

Sry but this thread needs more humor + less flamebait.

ensoriki · Nov 14, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Haha I am simply loving it. SINS got spanked in the bud. hardy har har. That was a great BALANCE for SINS IZZY I'm lovin you tonight.

They should rethink necro SR though again since they removed spirits from them and pet corpses. Should go back to regular necro SR like it was before all the SR nerfing started.

Seems rangers got loving again after they nerfed splinter weapon, now they give them more power with that Barrage again. Rangers still need some heavy nerfing to interupts and recharges of them.

Was sad to see Word of Healing get nerfed down in healing power. My hero monks were lovin it. I used to use Glimmering Light, but, since they did improve WOH man my hero monks can finally last through some tough battles.

Overall a decent balancing act. I think they still need to bring Chiliblains back to what it used to be. Obsidain Flesh and Shadow Form Ele's are now even more of a pain in the arse in FA.

Was a great sin balance for everything but horns.

Sin's will now take Mark of instability, and when we do you will piss ass for horns to return.

CyberNigma · Nov 14, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

33% IAS and 10+ regeneration thanks to your dead pets on the class that has the best dps already. C + Space at that point dealt insane amounts of damage and while Warrior's have the best armour, they also have maximum regeneration. On a shout. Which cannot be removed.

Sure it only lasted about a minute, but how many teams can deal with 8 Warriors with 16 in Axe/Sword/Hammer dealing out crazyass damage each, on top of that was the attack skill use on the rest of their bar, which only served to increase the damage moreso. Matches wouldn't last longer than a minute.

A balanced build stood no chance against that kind of dps. The solution? Direct counter. FoC spike. A build that wouldn't ever be considered as viable anywhere else but IWAY but required a decent amount of coordination to get right.

Now tell me, how was IWAY not overpowered?

Except that balanced builds (with experienced and good players) were able to cut through IWAY and hold halls at various points during that period. They were just better players at playing balanced builds against builds that were different that theirs.

EDIT: Someone brought up Magic earlier. Even in magic there are builds that will completely wipe away other builds. These are builds that are not restricted or banned. It happens. The only time something is banned or restricted is if it can wipe out EVERY other build out there. If a build can completely wipe out another build without the other one even standing a chance unless it has a counter, then that's fair game. It's a chance you take. Ultimately GW includes chance as well because you have to pick your skills before you see your opponent's skills. If you pick a bad counter then hopefully one of your teammates has one. If none of you did, then make the best of it. Playing a game like this without having to plan for 'unknowns' and being able to counter them is worthless, even more predictable than PvE is. Part of the fun of games like Magic, and even RPG PvP is that there is some element of chance (the fact that you can't use EVERY card/skill you have, but rather you must choose wisely, and hopefuly correctly). Even in realy RPGs (traditional) a mage has to prepare what spells he wants before he knows what he'll need. Not everything can be predictable and not everything should be. By making the metagame (if you call it that) to one in which you never have to worry about countering anything, you are ending up with something just as predictable as PvE. If you want it truly to be non-random, completely balanced, with no chance of deviation, then you really should not be playing an RPG PvE. You should be playing a FPS, preferably one with only one class of player and non-changing environment or a game like chess.

One of the beatuies of Magic is its theme decks. They allow for variation within the game. Some theme decks (even ones released Wizards) are superior to another one (meaning they can stomp the other one with equally skilled payers). What does the other person do? He comes back with a few new cards to counter the most common deck types he may be coming up against (such as a few counterspells if his colors allow for that, direct damage, creature removal, etc) outside of his theme a bit. If he doesn't have a counter for something he comes across, or he comes across a truly unique deck, he makes the best of it and pushes onward.

Wut Wut · Nov 14, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Haha I am simply loving it. SINS got spanked in the bud. hardy har har. That was a great BALANCE for SINS IZZY I'm lovin you tonight.

They should rethink necro SR though again since they removed spirits from them and pet corpses. Should go back to regular necro SR like it was before all the SR nerfing started.

Seems rangers got loving again after they nerfed splinter weapon, now they give them more power with that Barrage again. Rangers still need some heavy nerfing to interupts and recharges of them.

Was sad to see Word of Healing get nerfed down in healing power. My hero monks were lovin it. I used to use Glimmering Light, but, since they did improve WOH man my hero monks can finally last through some tough battles.

Overall a decent balancing act. I think they still need to bring Chiliblains back to what it used to be. Obsidain Flesh and Shadow Form Ele's are now even more of a pain in the arse in FA.

Maybe a fair thing for Soul Reaping would be back to what it was before the nerf, but not gain energy from pets or spirits. Keep pet corpses exploitable, but take away energy from pets and spirits, and maybe buff it to 4 times in the next 15? Idk.

The Meth · Nov 14, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

My take on everything

Assassins: SP sins got torn apart and then izzy spit on their bodies for good measure. Not going to comment on this, will see how it plays out.

Mesmer: It was at 20, changed to 15, was changed back to 20, people cry. Next time change it to 30 first then change it to 20 an hour later, people will praise you.

Monk: WoH is still very awesome, the nerf was just a little scale back. It still has Self targeting, 3 sec recharge and about 50-60 greater heal then the previous version.

Necromancer: Ends a lot of abusive things in PvP, though I wish this was a PvP only nerf, since in game terms it makes sense for spirits to give soul reaping, and no one cares about a little more energy for PvE necros. Hopefully we can get the 3 per 15 seconds thing scaled back, but don't count on it.

Ranger: Barrage gets a 3 point damage boost! weeeee! Sounds like a change just to get pve rangers to stop complaining about the splinter nerf, even though it nowhere near makes up for it. See the ineptitude explanation.

Energizing winds getting a big hit was probably good though maybe overdone just SLIGHTLY?

Pets not leaving exploitable corpses should really be made pvp only, I mean they already made pets in PvP get DP while PvE ones don't, why can't we have the same thing here? But in the end all this really hurts is MM's, and making someone use a different build for the 1/10th of the game without enemy corpses isn't a horrible thing.

Anyone see Magebane Shot becoming very good? Immunity to blocking should let good rangers nail most casters pretty well, considering that layers of blocking is one of the best ways to stop interruption. Savage shot and Distracting shot were already the staples of rangers, this is Part Savage + Part Distracting + unblockable + Disableing. Depending on how this goes with the meta changes it might need a small nerf.

Mhenlo: At least they admit lod we nerfed beyond the point of no return lol

Sekkira · Nov 14, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Except that balanced builds (with experienced and good players) were able to cut through IWAY and hold halls at various points during that period. They were just better players at playing balanced builds against builds that were different that theirs.

If when you say "balanced", you man "direct counter to 8 warriors dealing shit-tons of dps" then, sure.

Wut Wut · Nov 14, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

My take on everything

Pets not leaving exploitable corpses should really be made pvp only, I mean they already made pets in PvP get DP while PvE ones don't, why can't we have the same thing here? But in the end all this really hurts is MM's, and making someone use a different build for the 1/10th of the game without enemy corpses isn't a horrible thing.

Exactly what I was trying to say, but it didn't come out right for me

Gattsu05 · Nov 14, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

What's with the no exportability pet corpse? I don't care if it was being used in PvP, They could have increased the time after death before that pet leaves another corpse or something. With all these nerfs its no wonder people are leaving GW to play games like 2moons that are funner and free to play and download. If this kind of thing keeps up I'll have to take a friends advice and give up on GW and GW2 and find another game to play.

"Quit Nerfing Necros!"

Cacheelma · Nov 14, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Great update! I guess I'll rush through 67-70 and raid Kara for gears and join you guys in Zul'Aman ASAP. The place looks like fun!

o wait....where am I?

CyberNigma · Nov 14, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

If when you say "balanced", you man "direct counter to 8 warriors dealing shit-tons of dps" then, sure.

in many of the cases they were 'class balanced' as opposed to 'build balanced'