Curse

zknifeh · Nov 14, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

*Grabs a torch and gathers an angry mob to hunt Izzy*
horns was perfectly balanced skill, with a reasonable condition to meet.
i could see how trampling ox was a bit too strong and always thought it should do about the same dmg as hoto.
now hoto is pure garbage making most reasonable builds useless to lack of damage.
i say its a bit better than [skill]jagged strike[/skill]
BRING HOTO BACK!!! and buff trampling ox by about 5-8 dmg more!

Sekkira · Nov 14, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

So...someone/team comes along with a unique build that catches your "balanced" team off guard and wins a few times and you dont want it nerfed?

When some team comes along with a unique build that happens to shit all over your balanced build and the only way to effectively counter it is to change from a balanced build to one that specifically is designed against said build. That is imbalance.

There's a huge difference between bringing protective spirit to counter large single attack damage and bringing shields up to counter the damage from ranger spike.

Full Metal X · Nov 14, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Pet corpses, which have been in the game since the beginning, are now stupidly overpowered?

They could cause problems in spirit/heroway in which the thumpers pets died and the necro made minions from them, giving the other 3-4 necros in the team infinite energy and super powering barbs.

Shadowfox1125 · Nov 14, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Next update. Player corpses aren't exploitable. =P

Sins were hit hard either way you look at it. SP sins are dead, thank god. But, Impale got hit by the nerf bat.. I loved Impale.
I used EW for Destroyer Core farming. Well I guess I can still farm, but less efficiently.

Fates · Nov 14, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

They could cause problems in spirit/heroway in which the thumpers pets died and the necro made minions from them, giving the other 3-4 necros in the team infinite energy and super powering barbs.

and this is new, or even common?

Shadowmoon · Nov 14, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by øln

Did exploitable player pet corpses make that big of a difference in PvE?

Urgoz and Tombs, most useful was B/P, which used a MM to make meat tanks from the dead pets. Honestlly they nerfed the splinter instead of fixing VoD, buff barrage just to say i'm sorry, but then nerf the main producer of meat shields.

Orinn · Nov 14, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

That's exactly what PvPers don't want. Which is where the call for nerfs come from. Don't any of you pay attention?

I try, I really do, but I have to agree that calling for nerfs on the forums to anything that actually beats "balanced" on a regular basis, has become second nature to a lot of people. Adaptation is not necessary, just throw around around catchphrases like "degenerate gameplay" and "bad for the game" if it beats balanced, and keep insisting that the devs nerf it. Eventually, the devs cave, repeat until "metagame" means nothing more than "what flavor of balanced do we want to run today?"

A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen.

And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP.

B/P_Ranger · Nov 14, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

The more I think of it.. I am so tired of this game and its freaking elitist attitude... a casual player like me isn't allowed to play I suppose, because I dont want to build another character, because I don't want to discover another build...you have effectively screwed me out of playing the game. There is no need for my build.

Maybe I should just give up on my favorite type of games Diablo 2 GW and go to some shooter game like Halo that isn't nerfing their players every time they turn the f around

Full Metal X · Nov 14, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

and this is new, or even common?

Back in B-Spike HA days they always took minions to give themselves infinite energy. So no, its not new, and Spirit way was common in HA, but noone cares about HA so who cares.

AKA Infinite energy is baaaed

Spike · Nov 14, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

If anef keep going like this, thier won't be enough people left playing to pay for the server upkeep.

Lhim · Nov 14, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaje vhanli

It seems to me the more they try to "balance" Guild Wars the more imbalanced it gets... -_-;;

The Devs should read this and meditate on this; letting it sink in firmly. Honestly, the changes they're continuously making over the months are .... I'll keep it polite.....not encouraging.

Fates · Nov 14, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

I try, I really do, but I have to agree that calling for nerfs on the forums to anything that actually beats "balanced" on a regular basis, has become second nature to a lot of people. Adaptation is not necessary, just throw around around catchphrases like "degenerate gameplay" and "bad for the game" if it beats balanced, and keep insisting that the devs nerf it. Eventually, the devs cave, repeat until "metagame" means nothing more than "what flavor of balanced do we want to run today?"

A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen.

And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP.

Good post. Apparently saying "Good post." wasnt enough so here's some more.

raddaman · Nov 14, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Stop talking, please.

HoTO has been a good Assassin skill for so long its not funny.
HotO was not imbalanced before Nightfall, it was not imbalanced AFTER nightfall.
Horns required an off hand, most duals do.
However consider horns effect, it was not high damage , but you got a knock down. Before Nightfall this and Iron palm were really the Only assassin skills to
activate Falling spider, the other 1 being Mark of instability, but its 20 second recharge made it undesirable...at the time.

hoTO was just a skill, not under powered, not Imbalanced. it was just a skill.
Saying it needs skill to play? There are BUILDS that should require skills to play.

And then there are just skills.
Some skills should, some it does not matter.
hoTO is just like entangling asp, How can you say its over powered?
Entangling is only good due to paradox.
HoTO has gone from a decent skill (that people did not take ALL the time, because it was a skill that was viable sometimes and sometimes not)
to shit.

Think of the warrior skills that do Horns job (knockdown + damage)
if horns was turned into a warrior skill right now...they probably wouldn't even take it (hammer warrior)

because its shit right now.
Especially on a class that would use it a lot more if Balance was to arise.

Horns....you stayed good through good times bad times....and now they killed you.

Either you or I are missing reading comprehension

. I liked the skill. You had a chance to not finish of the combo if you fail at the game and didn't see the target standing to another, and allows a monk to ignore you if he stands next to someone else.

You have me confused, as the only nerf was damage, but you say the only reason to take it is the knockdown.

Out of the only well-known bar where it wasn't necessary was SP. You need the deep wound, and your bar is already small. Twisting fangs was the only Deep wound skill, and no need for a 6 skill combo. When Impale got the deep wound boost, there was no reason to use twisting fangs (plus the fact that imaple needs only 5e down cost). You have your cake and eat it too with a knockdown, high damage, and room for an IAS. Had they known that they should kill impale, no deep wound or less damage, they would have no reason to kill HotO because they would have to re run TF.

Depends on how they adapt it for warrior, as the good knockdowns besides bulls are elite and devastating has no+ damage.

A skill that requires thinking should be better than one that does not. Protection should be better than heal, SoJ sins should be dead, etc.

Llint · Nov 14, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

I try, I really do, but I have to agree that calling for nerfs on the forums to anything that actually beats "balanced" on a regular basis, has become second nature to a lot of people. Adaptation is not necessary, just throw around around catchphrases like "degenerate gameplay" and "bad for the game" if it beats balanced, and keep insisting that the devs nerf it. Eventually, the devs cave, repeat until "metagame" means nothing more than "what flavor of balanced do we want to run today?"

A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen.

And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP.

Alright bro, we'll just bring back old IWAY, vimway, ranger spike, pre-pre-pre-pre-pre nerf gale, discord, paragon way, ritualist spirits, FoC, Chain lightning, Ether renewal, smiting, Rao etc etc etc so the metagame doesn't get stale and I won't have to run FoTM's. Woot. Go us.

lg5000 · Nov 14, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by B/P_Ranger

The more I think of it.. I am so tired of this game and its freaking elitist attitude... a casual player like me isn't allowed to play I suppose, because I dont want to build another character, because I don't want to discover another build...you have effectively screwed me out of playing the game. There is no need for my build.

Maybe I should just give up on my favorite type of games Diablo 2 GW and go to some shooter game like Halo that isn't nerfing their players every time they turn the f around

I'm a casual player, I play mesmer and I am more than interested in other skills because I do need to know which skills can be interrupted, what's an enchant and what is and what isn't a spell. Don't wanna put backfire on the ranger that doesn't have any spells

What's soo wrong with learning a new build? With experimenting with new builds?

Zeek Aran · Nov 14, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

When some team comes along with a unique build that happens to shit all over your balanced build and the only way to effectively counter it is to change from a balanced build to one that specifically is designed against said build. That is imbalance.

There's a huge difference between bringing protective spirit to counter large single attack damage and bringing shields up to counter the damage from ranger spike.

What's wrong with bringing a single skill? What's the reason for nerfing sins? Ineptitude, any form of blind, just a single skill can ruin THEIR whole chain. I don't understand how Izzy can find that unbalanced.

CyberNigma · Nov 14, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llint

Alright bro, we'll just bring back old IWAY, vimway, ranger spike, pre-pre-pre-pre-pre nerf gale, discord, paragon way, ritualist spirits, FoC, Chain lightning, Ether renewal, smiting, Rao etc etc etc so the metagame doesn't get stale and I won't have to run FoTM's. Woot. Go us.

Well if you can bring all of those back and they're playable against each other, then you've got your 'balance' right there lol.. with variety even.

Llint · Nov 14, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Well if you can bring all of those back and they're playable against each other, then you've got your 'balance' right there lol.. with variety even.

Okay... I mean ... Wow... I dare you, DARE YOU, to try and beat ANY of those builds, without a DIRECT COUNTER.

Edit: Bolded for emphasis.

ensoriki · Nov 14, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by zknifeh

*Grabs a torch and gathers an angry mob to hunt Izzy*
horns was perfectly balanced skill, with a reasonable condition to meet.
i could see how trampling ox was a bit too strong and always thought it should do about the same dmg as hoto.
now hoto is pure garbage making most reasonable builds useless to lack of damage.
i say its a bit better than [skill]jagged strike[/skill]
BRING HOTO BACK!!! and buff trampling ox by about 5-8 dmg more!

jagged strike> horns of the ox.

1 second bleeding that you can spread to multiple people.
That also activates on If ally attacks skills from paragons/monks/rits

horns

you get 18 damage more..On the weapons with the weakest damage in the game. Conditional Knockdown, that any skilled team would learn. Horn's made people think about their position? PVP your going to tell me thats bad, to make people want to position themselves? Horns made sins have to consider who to target than just pick a target 12345, because you needed a target who was really away from others.

Anyways

horns recharge is longer than jaggeds (by many times)
meaning Jagged can activate, when Ally uses a skill clauses far better than Horns.

Thats something people forget about jagged.

Spammable bleed, that is good for activating clauses.

Horns...no...15 seconds (or was it 12) for additional 18 damage.

Considering sins will usually hit about 6-14 damage (average) and 32 crit (60 AL)
thats not allot, that means horns will really do

+10 damage at 13 dagger mastery

so 16-24 damage per hit, 42 damage if you crit.

thats 36-48 damage total, 84 damage if your LUCKY, and Actually my math for the crit is off. As I've never seen horns hit for that high from a crit even before the nerf >.>

regardless if it does that 84 damage, believe it or not is still total crap.

1 its based of luck, 2 crits are based off multiplication not stacking.

IF guardian is used as defense with its 50% chance only.

And the normal sin has a less than 50% chance (about 30 ish %
you show me how thats fair?

its probably more about 68 damage if you crit.

PvP you call that balance? A good skill conditional knock down thats simplest counter is basic POSITIONING?

Just want to hammer that in.

Prove me wrong if you want to.

B/P_Ranger · Nov 14, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

I'm a casual player, I play mesmer and I am more than interested in other skills because I do need to know which skills can be interrupted, what's an enchant and what is and what isn't a spell. Don't wanna put backfire on the ranger that doesn't have any spells

What's soo wrong with learning a new build? With experimenting with new builds?

I do experiement to some degree, and I have, excuse me had a build that worked awesome for me...

Distracting shot, Savage shot, Barrage, Pain inverter, healing, rebirth, comfort pet and charm pet..

I play maybe a 3 hours a week, and changing your skill bar wont matter, because when it comes down to it, it will only be a matter of time before its nerfed again.

I left diablo over this kind of attitude, and I'm honestly sick of it.

I am tired of my character being screwed with because of f'ing pvp