Curse

sykoone · Nov 01, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

This had gotten way out of hand. First off, it seems by Gaile's posts that she probably hasn't seen the mod at work, and is basing her decisions on what's been said here, and possibly the description on the wiki page about it. Given that this is much more than a simply "dress up" mod, before any decisions about its legality of use are made, I feel it needs to be play tested by the devs. I would by more than happy to show the devs exactly how this mod works, it's potential for use/abuse, and ways to either integrate it into the existing system or permanently disable it (should that be the final outcome).

So I say to any of the Anet staff, if you wish to discuss the future of this mod, or be instructed in exactly how it does what it does, without exaggeration, PM me here on the forums.

freekedoutfish · Nov 01, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

She's talking about how the title itself, and how it is acquired, is poorly designed.

And sadly you based alot of your post off of this...

So. Since people have the title, it is not flawed? That's faulty logic. We're talking about the acquisition of the title, how annoying it is to scrape those walls, not being able to tell if you hit a spot, *missing* a spot, having to exploit game mechanics for a small %...The list goes on, and everything in that list takes a large amount of your time - JUST to find that .01% of map you missed.

What does this mod do? It takes away the time more than anything.

She was saying the system was flawed and the sheer fact people have 100% on all maps shows it isnt. There a difference between a system being flawed and the system not being fun.

The system works, but you and others just dont find it fun!

Do you enjoy capping elites? Do you enjoy replaying missions in hardmode? Do you enjoy opening chests? Do you enjoy id'ing golds? Do you enjoy protectng NPCs in quests? There are lots of things ingame that arent fun, but that doesnt mean the system or mechanism is flawed!

Some people enjoy it and some people dont. Some people are realistic that its meant to be hard and the pleasure comes when you reach 100% after putting all that effort in.

But try to get some perspective... your not being forced to explore 100% of the map in anyway, shape or form! You dont get a benefit from it at all! Its purely an athetic thing for the map and 4 maxed titles.

I always have to hark back to this belief that people who complain about exploration dont actually care about exploring. Especially those who havent even tried and just winge before they start. I expect quite alot of people who are /signed for this idea purely want this to achieve 4 easy maxed titles.

They probably listened to some player saying "oh exploration is easy" so they run off and start doing it and reality sinks in... EXPLORATION IS NOT MEANT TO BE EASY!

Dont start winging because you started exploring thinking it would be a walk in the park. Its not!! It shouldnt be!!

Are any of the people who want this added, actually fans of exploring? Do you enjoy exploring? or are you purely doing this for more maxed titles? The mod does a hell of alot more then take away time, it makes exploration a walk in the park with absolutely no concentration needed at all.

Anyway, ive always said people can use it if they want, I have no issues there. I just wish people would stop making stupid comments like "hu, it doent make exploration easier at all..." and "its not lazey". If you want to use the mod then fine, but atleast have some self respect and admit to it making exploration easier and to it being the lazey mans way out!

I dont mind, because (as ive said) I know I did it because I love exploration and I did it before the mod existed. If someone else wants to come along and act all high-and-mighty and use the mod and then say "its not lazey", then I just have to mock them.

Ofcourse its lazey and ofcourse it makes it easier, and its just an excuse to get away from a lack of determination or inpatience! People start exploring and think it will be over in 2 weeks..... NO IT WONT! It can take weeks or months to explore. You all just want the quick way out and I wish you would just admit that, instead of trying to save your dignity.

jezz · Nov 01, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

She was saying the system was flawed and the sheer fact people have 100% on all maps shows it isnt. There a difference between a system being flawed and the system not being fun.

The system works, but you and others just dont find it fun!

Do you enjoy capping elites? Do you enjoy replaying missions in hardmode? Do you enjoy opening chests? Do you enjoy id'ing golds? Do you enjoy protectng NPCs in quests? There are lots of things ingame that arent fun, but that doesnt mean the system or mechanism is flawed!

Some people enjoy it and some people dont. Some people are realistic that its meant to be hard and the pleasure comes when you reach 100% after putting all that effort in.

But try to get some perspective... your not being forced to explore 100% of the map in anyway, shape or form! You dont get a benefit from it at all! Its purely an athetic thing for the map and 4 maxed titles.

I always have to hark back to this belief that people who complain about exploration dont actually care about exploring. Especially those who havent even tried and just winge before they start. I expect quite alot of people who are /signed for this idea purely want this to achieve 4 easy maxed titles.

They probably listened to some player saying "oh exploration is easy" so they run off and start doing it and reality sinks in... EXPLORATION IS NOT MEANT TO BE EASY!

Dont start winging because you started exploring thinking it would be a walk in the park. Its not!! It shouldnt be!!

Are any of the people who want this added, actually fans of exploring? Do you enjoy exploring? or are you purely doing this for more maxed titles? The mod does a hell of alot more then take away time, it makes exploration a walk in the park with absolutely no concentration needed at all.

Anyway, ive always said people can use it if they want, I have no issues there. I just wish people would stop making stupid comments like "hu, it doent make exploration easier at all..." and "its not lazey". If you want to use the mod then fine, but atleast have some self respect and admit to it making exploration easier and to it being the lazey mans way out!

I dont mind, because (as ive said) I know I did it because I love exploration and I did it before the mod existed. If someone else wants to come along and act all high-and-mighty and use the mod and then say "its not lazey", then I just have to mock them.

Ofcourse its lazey and ofcourse it makes it easier, and its just an excuse to get away from a lack of determination or inpatience! People start exploring and think it will be over in 2 weeks..... NO IT WONT! It can take weeks or months to explore. You all just want the quick way out and I wish you would just admit that, instead of trying to save your dignity.

i used the mod for elona and cantha..only for last few % so what..and for your info..it wasnt at all lazy way..(just because in your opinion it is lazy, doesnt mean you are right) yeah it gave me an idea where to travel too..but still doesnt have an arrow pointing here quick stand at this point you will get it..i still had to kill enemy and figure out how to get to those points to clear it...now i have these titles i will now go grind for norn, asuran, deldrimor and vanguard titles..so yeah now i can spend more time on EoN..

Karyuu · Nov 01, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

There a difference between a system being flawed and the system not being fun.

The system works, but you and others just dont find it fun!

I never said the system didn't work, I said it's not optimal. Meaning there is room for it to improve. You can try to go on a "It's perfect as is, it's perfect!" rant, but the fact that some people are spending entire days doing guesswork about something that was never meant to be about guesswork, shows to me that there are flaws with this feature's design.

Quote:

Some people are realistic that its meant to be hard and the pleasure comes when you reach 100% after putting all that effort in.

What is it with all this crap about people who use texmod supposedly not putting any effort into this title? Are you listening to yourself? Honestly. I still have to scrape every single wall. I still have to guess sometimes in what zone that remaining fog is, how to get there, survive getting there and hope I'm right and I don't have to approach it from somewhere else. Just because I'm not straining my eyes anymore trying to figure out if something is really fog or simply blurry terrain, doesn't mean that I'm not putting effort into this title track. Quit propagating this misconception!

Quote:

I always have to hark back to this belief that people who complain about exploration dont actually care about exploring.

Well, you can lump me right out of that category as quickly as you lumped me in. I already wrote that in almost every game I've played, I've been an explorer in some form - by name, by reputation, by guild rank, etc. I've always enjoyed the activity, and I enjoy being able to continue my tradition in GW. What I don't enjoy is wasting my time guessing in an activity that has nothing to do with guesswork. There are people posting here who found themselves with 100% in this title as soon as it was implemented, or who never used Photoshop or this mod or any screenshot comparisons. Kudos to them! That's very impressive, but it's also extremely rare, and I wouldn't base any conclusions about a feature solely because "They could do it, so it's okay!"

Quote:

The mod does a hell of alot more then take away time, it makes exploration a walk in the park with absolutely no concentration needed at all.

You have no idea how this mod works, what it does, how it helps, and why people use it. Quit thinking you understand people's motivations, quit thinking you understand what sort of time this mod saves, go and install it and try it out.

Seriously. You absolutely cannot jump into a discussion about something, in this manner, without seeing it for yourself.

Foul Play Leo · Nov 01, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Do you enjoy capping elites? Do you enjoy replaying missions in hardmode? Do you enjoy opening chests? Do you enjoy id'ing golds? Do you enjoy protectng NPCs in quests? There are lots of things ingame that arent fun, but that doesnt mean the system or mechanism is flawed!
:This part is true:

Are any of the people who want this added, actually fans of exploring? Do you enjoy exploring? or are you purely doing this for more maxed titles? The mod does a hell of alot more then take away time, it makes exploration a walk in the park with absolutely no concentration needed at all.
:If you have not used the mod what are you basing this off of, I have mapped with the mod and with out it after all I am one of the people that made them and like stated before even with the mod you still have to walk the walk the only thing it does is give you insight as the what you have missed same as looking at others map. And yes I enjoy exploring but after going through a zone 3 times hungin walls most any one will look for a hint to as the spot that they can not find:

Anyway, ive always said people can use it if they want, I have no issues there. I just wish people would stop making stupid comments like "hu, it doent make exploration easier at all..." and "its not lazey". If you want to use the mod then fine, but atleast have some self respect and admit to it making exploration easier and to it being the lazey mans way out!
:Just because some one that may have already been through a zone 3 or more times and then looks for something to help them out does not mean they are lazy and a loss of self respect flaming people for looking for a better way or even a hint is not the way to go:

Ofcourse its lazey and ofcourse it makes it easier, and its just an excuse to get away from a lack of determination or inpatience! People start exploring and think it will be over in 2 weeks..... NO IT WONT! It can take weeks or months to explore. You all just want the quick way out and I wish you would just admit that, instead of trying to save your dignity.[/QUOTE]
:I got more time one one toon than some have on there hole account and I have dignity in my game play and put in my time and effort into all that I do like the fact of makeing something to help out others with a title that I like you had to get as they call it the hard way. Makeing of these mods wasnot something we just hit a button and was done, we had to map the game caputer the in game map and mod close to if not more then 1000 textures. Ok enough said and yes I have respect for those who got the title the old way I am one of them:

Savio · Nov 01, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfishh

You all just want the quick way out and I wish you would just admit that, instead of trying to save your dignity.

Get off your high horse, there are plenty of GMCs who've never touched the mod who support it. There's no reason to prevent people from getting help with cartography, aside from a few players' inflated view of the GMC title.

Aera Lure · Nov 01, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

This thread has gotten way over the top. The OP is certainly making a mountain out of a molehill on this one, no disrespect intended.

The only thing TextMod does as relates to cartography is make one better able to see the fog effect. It doesnt change any other activity related to cartography one bit. Long before the mods it was easily possible to take screens of your map and overlay them in Photoshop over a 100% explore map and hit the Difference filter. Same thing.

One still has to get to the location, scrape the walls, avoid or otherwise take care of any offending mobs etc. There is no way to do this in a day or even a couple, unless you have the map in question already explored to a considerable extent and you are seeking to hit those 10-20 places you need. How you determine what those places are, be they a map checker on a Guru thread, Photoshop, TextMod, luck or trial and error makes NO difference.

The rest of the "research" the OP cites is quickly available from Wiki or a cartography guide on Guru. Yes, this used to be somewhat arcane knowledge, but only a short time before Wiki and guides got up to speed. I fail to see any relevance between this and the cartography title. Do you wish to shut down Wiki?

There is no reason to limit people's access to TextMod since the same thing has long before been done with Photoshop. This is coming from someone who did cartography on another character sans any assistance. The OP does strike me a little as complaining about the preceived deflation of a title due to TextMod, but I see no such thing. One can just as easily blame Photoshop, map checkers, guides and Wiki - but none of that changes the fact that someone has to go DO it - which is all the cartography title has ever really been about.

Tiger30 · Nov 01, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

I have watched this thread and a lot of people are under the misconception that with this mod all you have to do is step in a zone and the area is cleared out. It is not that way.

I know the developers of this mod, I know the work that was put into it, I know that they used at a minimum of about 3 people who had the 100% areas mapped in order to construct this mod.

The basic of this mod is that it changes the coloration of the fog to let you know what areas are explorable and what areas are not. It does not open the map for you, does not give you a one way ticket to the area. The developers of the mod used colors that would be distinctive to make it easier to look at and be able to tell where you might have missed. It does not say "stand here".

You still have to fight to get in the areas and map the same old way. You still have to do your quests and missions to get into the areas in order to open it up, It is just easier to SEE where you are missing some area.

I have approx 4,235 hours over 29 months invested in the game. I have one charactor that has gotten LGMC, and I have done it with out the mod.

I will not begrudge any one or flame anyone who has used the mod because I know how it actually works. I don't use it mainly for the fact that I have the title on one of my charactors and I am happy with that.

As for things being said about Gaile..isn't this something concerning the community of GW. People are upset about it (though they may have never really seen how it works) but she is human and is trying to do her best. The people in here have asked that it be brought to the Devs attention and that is what she is doing. Please do not get upset at her for doing as you have asked her to do.

As far as the mod goes if you don't trust it for fear that there is a key logger in it, or that it is considered a bot thing, or just don't want to use it then don't. But if you are wanting to judge it why not look at it first then make your judgment, other wise to me you are making an ignorant assumption about what this mod does and how it works.

Bryant Again · Nov 01, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Some people enjoy it and some people dont. Some people are realistic that its meant to be hard and the pleasure comes when you reach 100% after putting all that effort in.

Walk walking at a 45 degree angle and straining your eyes, triple checking every area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But try to get some perspective... your not being forced to explore 100% of the map in anyway, shape or form! You dont get a benefit from it at all! Its purely an athetic thing for the map and 4 maxed titles.

Exactly. So why do you care?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

They probably listened to some player saying "oh exploration is easy" so they run off and start doing it and reality sinks in... EXPLORATION IS NOT MEANT TO BE EASY!

It was easy before. Now it's just slightly less time consuming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Ofcourse its lazey and ofcourse it makes it easier, and its just an excuse to get away from a lack of determination or inpatience! People start exploring and think it will be over in 2 weeks..... NO IT WONT! It can take weeks or months to explore.

Took me two weeks without the mod. I'd see about a couple days difference w/mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You all just want the quick way out and I wish you would just admit that, instead of trying to save your dignity.

Read my concerns from earlier in the thread. I don't want anyone to "look into this mod" because the only way they could disable it is through banning Texmod completely. And I don't want the modding community to die over this completely frivolous bullshit.

Skyy High · Nov 01, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Going to say this again...most cartographers (and EVERY cartography thread I've ever seen) used photoshop to map compare. Why is this so much different?

Alex Dimitri · Nov 01, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I was stuck on 99.x % on all 3 continents, so i took SS of my map and started comparing to 100% of some L.Cartographer even i`m quite good with Photoshop a have reveled only 0.1% on one map !!!
And after days and days of tryin` to find missed spots my head started hurtin` like hell i had hedache`s almost every day (i wear glasses) then i heard about texmod and took my chance, put it on and finished those miniature 0.x% on maps !!!
And i`m forever GRATEFUL to people who made that mod !!!

freekedoutfish · Nov 01, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jezz

i used the mod for elona and cantha..only for last few % so what..and for your info..it wasnt at all lazy way..(just because in your opinion it is lazy, doesnt mean you are right) yeah it gave me an idea where to travel too..but still doesnt have an arrow pointing here quick stand at this point you will get it..i still had to kill enemy and figure out how to get to those points to clear it...now i have these titles i will now go grind for norn, asuran, deldrimor and vanguard titles..so yeah now i can spend more time on EoN..

I posted in an earlier reply that I can understand someone with 99% using this mod to find their last 1%. I sympathise and I can relate to that.

What I dislike is someone who hasnt even tried exploring, or put any effort in using the normal mechanism to use the mod right from the start. People should atleast attempt to explore to an extent before they resort to using a mod like this to make it "easier".

I can also relate to someone who has 5 characters and doesnt want to do it all again the harder way. But if its your first charactera and you use the mod from the word go, then that is "lazey" because you havent even tried.

That is what I personally have issues with.

Aslong as a person tries the existing system to explore to a fare %, then I dont mind. But I think the mod should only be used by those who are frustrated and in need of serious aid.

Not just for the first-timer to jump right in and uncover all edges really easily.

pumpkin pie · Nov 01, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Dimitri

I was stuck on 99.x % on all 3 continents, so i took SS of my map and started comparing to 100% of some L.Cartographer even i`m quite good with Photoshop a have reveled only 0.1% on one map !!!
And after days and days of tryin` to find missed spots my head started hurtin` like hell i had hedache`s almost every day (i wear glasses) then i heard about texmod and took my chance, put it on and finished those miniature 0.x% on maps !!!
And i`m forever GRATEFUL to people who made that mod !!!

see this is what i don't understand, on one hand people who support textmod says its not easy using textmod et cetera. (read posts before this)

on the other hand people who come here and say, wow! its so easy, and thanks to textmod i now have 100%??

so is it easy or not easy?

Bubby7 · Nov 01, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

I dont know how to use mods. I not going for the title. I just happy to see that some people were looking byond them self's to make something that helps EVERYONE ELSE..

Antheus · Nov 01, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I tried out the mod yesterday, and all I can say: why doesn't Anet add this to the game.

It's such an improvement and makes cartography the way it was meant to be.

Props go to authors as well, since they really delivered something that's not just a cheap hack, but an incredible addition to the game, that solves a major design issue that arose from the fact that cartography wasn't originally intended to be in game.

Karyuu · Nov 01, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Once you waste hours and days trying to find that last %, it's much easier when you immediately compare your guessing method to texmod to notice where that remaining fog is - and that's because that fog is easier to see. On a nearly fully explored map, it's extremely hard to notice what edges you should consider revisiting. When those edges are highlighted more, you get a better idea of what zones to try.

Strictly from a design standpoint and speaking as an artist, if something as simple as a single color change makes a big difference in efficiency, the original was not the best choice - especially when it's involved in achieving or attaining something in a game. Why is it that color choice should prevent you from working through an activity quickly? Is that really how you should make a game challenging? Color?

pumpkin pie · Nov 01, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I tried out the mod yesterday, and all I can say: why doesn't Anet add this to the game.

It's such an improvement and makes cartography the way it was meant to be.

Props go to authors as well, since they really delivered something that's not just a cheap hack, but an incredible addition to the game, that solves a major design issue that arose from the fact that cartography wasn't originally intended to be in game.

Thats what I want to know too, I made a thread asking for a map overlay, but no one wanted it, all /not signed and also say i am lazy, then suddenly everyone is recommending textmod.

so why does ANET not do it??? like the vanquishing thing?

Saraphim · Nov 01, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Props go to authors as well, since they really delivered something that's not just a cheap hack, but an incredible addition to the game, that solves a major design issue that arose from the fact that cartography wasn't originally intended to be in game.

QFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubby7

I dont know how to use mods. I not going for the title. I just happy to see that some people were looking byond them self's to make something that helps EVERYONE ELSE..

Ditto.

Map comparison providers, tool creators (such as Mapping Out), people who contribute to wikis (unofficial or otherwise) are all helping out the community.

The OP was annoyed that people boasted to him that they'd done it in a day. I can understand why that would piss anyone off, but it's not credible. Using this mod you still have to physically go to all the spots and clear them. I seriously doubt that could be done in one day, even from 60% - which is almost guaranteed by the time you finish Factions. How do we know the people who griefed the OP weren't simply lying?

TheRaven · Nov 01, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Um, I don't think this should make a difference to any of the arguments presented, but does everyone that's contributing to this thread realize that the OP has retracted his statements and left the thread?

Here's the link. He basically said he's done some further research into textmod and changed his mind about his initial statements.

Bubby7 · Nov 01, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Um, I don't think this should make a difference to any of the arguments presented, but does everyone that's contributing to this thread realize that the OP has retracted his statements and left the thread?

Here's the link. He basically said he's done some further research into textmod and changed his mind about his initial statements.

I read that but they are still awaiting a reponse from Gaile Grey