Curse

The Meth · Oct 30, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I did canthan GMC in under a week with no mods at all, and only using a comparison for the last 1%. Took about the same time for tyria and elona.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

So, maybe some readers will understand if I find this a little sickening. What was even more annoying.... this mod was so good that one of them hadn't even been into JQ and neither of them even knew about the Eredon Terrace glitch. So no actual skill involved.

So wait, glitching the game to get extra % is considered 'skill'? I think the majority would define that as cheating. JQ isn't skill, its having 15 guild members with you. If anything they did more 'work' by actually uncovering more of the map then you, since you used the eredon terrace glitch.

There is exactly 0 skill involved in GMC. You can visit nearly every zone with an empty skill bar and henchies. There is no 'skill' in alt-tabbing back and forth between maps. There is no 'skill' in moving beside walls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

So, I would like to conclude by saying to people: really don't bother with Cartography titles if you're looking for a badge of honour, any more. They used to mean you'd invested some effort but, right now, I honestly suspect that there are more people out there who got them by modding their game than getting them properly. It's impossible to distinguish who made this achievement in the way that A-Net intended it. Don't get me wrong, my Cartographer titles still mean something TO ME and nothing will take that away.... but I have 3 questions:

It was never a 'Badge of honor' sorry. If when you said 'getting them properly' you meant 'getting them the way I did, which is now obsolete' then you might be correct. Obviously we can't honestly know Anet's intent, but in general I believe all titles aren't supposed to be actual 'achievements', just something extra to serve as a 'hook'.

It is obviously not cheating, it only breaches the EULA if Anet says it does, and I am 99.99% sure that Anet can't retroactively take away titles. Nothing is changed in gw.exe, the textures addresses are simply redirected to point to modded textures, and all traces of this are gone when the program ends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

But having someone pop up and gloat because they got your high-end title in a small fraction of the time you did kind of makes you want to be angry at someone.

GMC is not and has never been a 'high end title'. The only titles that can be considered high end (if any) are guardian and vanquisher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

How many more titles will the goalposts move on? What next, a Signet that captures all elites in a zone when you step out of the portal and activate it? A nuclear bomb for Vanquishing? Shiro and Varesh take bribes to let you kill them?

This has essentially already been done, see EotN consumables. Do I care that I did all of those before EotN stuff? No, because your titles are supposed to be a personal achievement that you pride yourself on doing, not something that you use to judge other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

But I think the point is, the mod does change things, dramatically! I do not see the OP "belittling" someone. I see him expressing concern that suddenly those achievements that had one level of requirement are substantially easier to obtain. If someone wanders around trying to get that last .03%, that's entirely different than if someone can fire up the mod, jump to the map, and complete the final percentage in a matter of minutes.

Torqual, I understand your concerns, and this thread will be included in this week's community summary. I honestly don't expect that the game will be altered to revert the newly-changed parameters back to what they once were. But I will pass along how you feel about it, principally for future consideration.

You then need to add that as soon as you waste your programmers time trying to block this, people will make threads where others compare their maps to 100% maps and point out spots, which is no different from what is being done here. And in the near future, a new mod that gets around any restrictions you might add will probably be released

Torqual · Oct 30, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Well, if I had nothing to say but posted anyway....it generated 10 pages of discussion. So maybe it was relevant to someone.

I can see it's annoyed some people that Gaile thinks I have a point, but heh, what was it you say?

"QQ less"

Mineria · Oct 30, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

I don't care about impressing other people, just like I don't care about wasting dozens of hours meticulously comparing screenshots in Photoshop. Why do you?

I don't care about using time to kill monsters *speedhack*
I don't care about that I need sit at my pc while playing *bot*
Do you get the point?

elektra_lucia · Oct 30, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

If you look at your statement:

Quote:

And it seems that it does not give any impression that there is anything wrong with runners

I did not need to quote the EULA exactly saying 'Running is forbidden'. I just had to show it gave an impression. So by saying 'it does rather imply', is an impression. It was enough to win the argument without having to quote loads of text from the EULA.

Quote:

Okay, I'll stop. But you have agreed that implied or not neither running nor using texmod is clearly forbidden, and there for is effectivly allowed. Running has been around for years and they have at best made it harder, but don't nothing to prevent it. They eleminated it in Factions, but opened it back up again, to a point, in Nightfall. And as far as Texmod goes they have more or less said, 'go for it but if it breaks your game don't cry to us"...

I have not agreed to such things, I am just bored of debating with someone that isn't worth debating with. I don't want to fine filter the EULA and quote every bit of text contradicting you. Especially when it took you this long to realise what I was saying.

darkdreamr · Oct 30, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

So the OP is saying that people who use iPods are noobs, whereas those good old Sony Walkmans required real skill. Yeah, spot on. Do you also get jealous when people whiz by you on roller blades or bikes?

Your point about the devaluing of Cartographer is valid though. But if you think about it, it's much easier to get most titles than it used to be. The first person with Holy Lightbringer probably had to work for it. Now everyone and their mom has it. If you want the prestige, you have to stay ahead of the curve.

Karyuu · Oct 30, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

I don't care about using time to kill monsters *speedhack*
I don't care about that I need sit at my pc while playing *bot*
Do you get the point?

There is a difference between doing things that affect other people, and doing something that affects nothing but your own time. People use hacks and bots to get ahead in the economy, which changes prices and often causes inflation. People changing the color of their map fog cannot be in the same category.

But perhaps you should explain to me how it does, since you are the one hinting that this is the case.

elektra_lucia · Oct 30, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

There is a difference between doing things that affect other people, and doing something that affects nothing but your own time. People use hacks and bots to get ahead in the economy, which changes prices and often causes inflation. People changing the color of their map fog cannot be in the same category.

But perhaps you should explain to me how it does, since you are the one hinting that this is the case.

The more you cheat to gain a title, the less the title is worth in the public eye.

SotiCoto · Oct 30, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

-_-;

This thread = fail.

+1.

Savio · Oct 30, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

The more you cheat to gain a title, the less the title is worth in the public eye.

GMC has been worthless from the start, all it requires are henchmen and a few hours.

Mineria · Oct 30, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

There is a difference between doing things that affect other people, and doing something that affects nothing but your own time. People use hacks and bots to get ahead in the economy, which changes prices and often causes inflation. People changing the color of their map fog cannot be in the same category.

But perhaps you should explain to me how it does, since you are the one hinting that this is the case.

So titles don't affect anything.. what's the HoM for?

I forgot to mention that I can add both bot and speedhack functions as a mod.
So if someone claims its against the EULA, I just point them to the wiki with the words "its only fun and harmless".

PS. funny that Anet didn't update this in the Rules of Conduct "You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars Client, Server, or any part of the official Guild Wars websites."

Karyuu · Oct 30, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

The more you cheat to gain a title, the less the title is worth in the public eye.

Did I say I cared about the "public eye" or what other people think of my personal achievement? Did anyone else in this thread state that they care, either?

Moreover, since when is this cheating and comparing screenshots in Photoshop, which is the same thing but slower, not?

elektra_lucia · Oct 30, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

GMC has been worthless from the start, all it requires are henchmen and a few hours

I could argue CS was worthless because I went straight to playing with the best really quickly. I could argue Quake is worthless because a similar thing happened. Or instagib in UT is worthless because I won eurocup after not having the game for very long.

Those few hours can be a few days or weeks for some people. Just like those few weeks it took me to do such stuff, could be a few years for others.

Does that mean I should aimbot or wallhack?

Nope.

Quote:

Did I say I cared about the "public eye" or what other people think of my personal achievement? Did anyone else in this thread state that they care, either?

Moreover, since when is this cheating and comparing screenshots in Photoshop, which is the same thing but slower, not?

Already answered, stop making me repeat myself.

Karyuu · Oct 30, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

So titles don't affect anything.. what's the HoM for?

If people don't use texmod, they use Photoshop to compare screenshots. They just take more time and more effort to do the exact same thing.

boxterduke · Oct 30, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

GMC has been worthless from the start, all it requires are henchmen and a few hours.

It sure is more rewarding than clicking on vitrual booze.

elektra_lucia · Oct 30, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

If people don't use texmod, they use Photoshop to compare screenshots. They just take more time and more effort to do the exact same thing.

And guild wars isn't about time or effort, it's all about skill right?

. Voided your own point. Whatever that was.

Quote:

It sure is more rewarding than clicking on vitrual booze.

Virtual booze sends my head funny.

Antheus · Oct 30, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

PS. funny that Anet didn't update this in the Rules of Conduct "You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars Client, Server, or any part of the official Guild Wars websites."

Textmod doesn't modify the client. Modifying the client is indeed against the EULA, and much worse, it's copyright infringement.

Textmod does exactly the same as changing brightness on your monitor. It isn't and cannot be covered by any law. If it does - having poor eyesight, or being color-blind will become a crime or EULA violation as well - it also makes one see the screen differently than others do.

Some people are still convinced the titles are something others should admire - not a personal achievement. That is where the problems start - wrong perception. There's plenty of people who got lots of titles. Yet they don't brag about them, don't look down on others, they don't care. For them, titles are something they are proud of since they indicate they achieved something.

The whining about "I did it like this, you should too" is simply "lol im a level 518 and ur level 514 noob".

And as was said many times before: Canthan GMC has least of worth. It has highest overhead, and is the smallest of all continents.

How about Tyria - and old players, who had all the arenas? Were they cheating as well? The only GMC that matters a tiny bit would be Tyrian - largest continent, mapping during missions, large explorables. But that's it.

Quote:

And guild wars isn't about time or effort, it's all about skill right?

Yep. Using textmod is skill. Doing it "the right way" is time.

Leighwyn · Oct 30, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Question. How many people who got Legendary Skill Hunter look up where bosses spawn? Do you just run around the map wildly hoping that last elite you need pops up somewhere, not even knowing if you're in the correct zone?

Just because tools didn't exist back in your day, doesn't mean people should ignore them and do it "the hard way" for "respect," or as I like to call it "e-Peen."

I'm quoting this because it already states succinctly exactly how I feel about using this mod. It is merely the next generation of tools to aide someone within the game by providing them information. I'm going to throw out a wild assumption and say that no one has achieved Legendary Skill Hunter in-game without looking up where a certain skill might be found on any of the numerous guides; even THAT information has gradually been refined over and over in its presentation so that it is now borderline brainless. I won't make the same assumption about Cartographer, but I do know that a very high majority of people have not achieved it without some form of assistance.

I've helped a lot of people achieve cartography titles through map comparisons, and I can say that it was extremely annoying to do for them. Why didn't this thread exist when that was going on for over 5,000 posts. What marginal work has since been subtracted from obtaining the title in going from that to this texmod, hitting Print Screen 20 times and finding an image host? Typing out a post for help? Seriously, the only thing that's different now is I and others like me don't need to check maps for those who ask for the help...they're able to independently operate and get the same information that would have been given to them at any point over the last year and a half. They still have to run to the points shown to them, they simply get feedback beyond a slight, sometimes imperceptible, visual change when they've achieved it.

I actually LOVE the mod. I had Legendary Cartographer before I ever loaded it up, and you know what my reaction was? I grinned! I thought it was such a cool thing that it excited me. I'm not upset about it making the title any easier to get, because all it does is offload the work from the few who helped people in forums. This title stopped being 'prestigious' the minute Livingston's or my own threads began offering help to any who asked for it. If you'd like to replace the epeen feel free to try out vanquishing.

Karyuu · Oct 30, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

And guild wars isn't about time or effort, it's all about skill right?

. Voided your own point. Whatever that was.

What?

What are you talking about? Enlighten me, I'm confused. I was saying that texmod is a faster way of seeing what spots on your map you have yet to uncover, which is exactly what you can already do using screenshots and Photoshop. I don't understand where the cries of "It's wrong, it's wrong!" come in.

Mineria · Oct 30, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

If people don't use texmod, they use Photoshop to compare screenshots. They just take more time and more effort to do the exact same thing.

Do you actually happen to know the difference?
Screenshots for an entire campaign map are not a little thing you just happen to load and see where you have been or not.
Try go and check some of the high res images on the wiki, and tell me how fast you can zoom in and out, plus scrolling around on the maps.
Not to mention keeping track.
Saying that it is the exact same thing to use the ingame mod is bullocks.

Savio · Oct 30, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I could argue CS was worthless because I went straight to playing with the best really quickly. I could argue Quake is worthless because a similar thing happened. Or instagib in UT is worthless because I won eurocup after not having the game for very long.

Those games actually require you to do something to win. GMC doesn't, if you consider it to be an accomplishment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxterduke

It sure is more rewarding than clicking on vitrual booze.

Virtual booze is more amusing.