Curse

Bryant Again · Nov 02, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Undoubtedly my verbiage could have been clearer. Certainly I might better have chosen to be uninvolved in the thread (despite more than one request for me to post). But most definitely, readers should have been a little less hasty to make assumptions about what I was trying to convey.

As we have said before, the only judge of whether a mod is acceptable or unacceptable is ArenaNet. Mike has been out of town and has not had an opportunity to discuss this particular matter with me, but I would judge that the fact that he has not done so means that the mod is not considered to be harmful. I will let you know if there is more to say on the subject.

Gaile, it's been the forgivable lack of knowledge on your part that has made me nervous. Earlier in the thread you posted this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

...A title once took months and a lot of ingenuity to acquire. Now, it can be obtained with virtually zero ingenuity (other than finding the mod and installing it ) and in a matter of days. Does that concern us? Would we ban someone who "exploited" the game in that manner? I honestly don't think so, but I truly do not know.

"In a matter of days" is HIGHLY situational. I could imagine someone mapping 10% in a day with no breaks at all, but anything more than that and it starts to get iffy. When you map, you can't rush things. You can't bring a fast running build because if you go too quick, you'll miss a spot. So you end up going through at a normal and tame pace, killing what's in your path, and taking your time. If you go against this, you will screw up. Not to mention all of the missions you have to accomplish before doing so.

So what specifically does this mod do? It makes it slightly more error proof. It's not fun, nor a testament to any "skill" to have to go back and find the spot to map that one insy-wincy bit that you missed. Cartography is not any easier: I still have to wall walk like crazy, and that WILL take time, no matter what - and the difference in time between using this mod and using without is nearly nothing. And there's still the ever-present unavoidable annoyance of simple human error that could eat up a chunk of your time.

Now this is where I start to get a bit uncomfortable. Given that you know little about the mod, you go and do this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I have sent an email to Mike O'Brien asking him specifically about this.

You sent him an e-mail about a situation that you did not fully understand, where we have no source or basis that this mod makes cartographing "stupid easy". Given that people have used it and mapped with it and have said that it does make it a little easier (even enjoyable), the difference in time is minimal - and really, that's all that this takes: time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Again, I don't think that anyone needs to be overly concerned about this, but for your peace of mind, I will inquire and get back to you with the answer to this particular question.

The fact that you sent him an email IS overly concerning.Then again, we don't know how often you e-mail him about other issues and the like. But given that you *did* mention it makes me a little anxious.

The reason I'm persisting in this thread is one I've stated numerous times already: I don't want the modding community to die. And if ANet wants to make it so we can't use the cartography mods, the only way to do so is to remove the use of Texmod altogether.

I could understand if it was something gamebreaking, but this really is NOTHING. If you say "well it must mean something since this is so popular :P," it's only like that because I don't want people - most notably, you and the devs - to get the wrong idea about what's really going on. Torqual's posts, along with a few others, have done little but either overexaggerate or claim false and uninformed facts (the mod was referred to as "a piece of programming", which is COMPLETELY untrue. It's nothing more than an image file.)

I'll say it again. I do not want the modding community to die over something so frivilous and pointless. You may continue to say that things may very well be fine, but I will continue to expect the worst.

ryanryanryan0310 · Nov 02, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Why does people think this mod makes it easy. All it does is save you a few eye squinting hours. You still got to run to the edges and sometimes fight mobs. It's helpful, but doesn't make it doable in 1 day or a week.

This entire thread fails!

Friday · Nov 02, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

I'm going to dip my oar in here again.

This mod is a "resource". It does not complete your title for you, it does not make the ground you need to cover any less, it does not unfog your map for you in any way - you still need to actually unfog each pixel yourself.

Here's a thought:
If this is considered a "cheat" then the in-game Wiki should, by the same measure, also be considered a "cheat" and "harmful" to the game - why, it has mission walk-throughs that provide step by step instructions on completing a mission and it's bonus. Oh! It even has maps for each mission that has dots that show the exact path you must walk to complete the mission and the bonus - now that is truly unfair to all the guys that did these missions before the Wiki had these guides posted, the poor guys who had to figure out for themselves what any mission bonus was even. The Wiki should be removed and certainly should NOT be accessible from in-game.

Sound ridiculous?

As ridiculous as making out that this resource is "harmfull to the game and a "cheat".

Amon Warrior · Nov 02, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I will let you know if there is more to say on the subject.

Thank you.

Maybe it could even be taken into consideration to be integrated with the Cartographer title: upon the first level, and only when the title is selected, the fog resolution on the map would be enhanced so that everyone could benefit from such a fine player-contribution that is Texmod.

For example, have the title for Tyria selected and the fog there (and only there) would have a greater contrast; the same for Cantha and Elona.

ryanryanryan0310 · Nov 02, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amon Warrior

Thank you.

Maybe it could even be taken into consideration to be integrated with the Cartographer title: upon the first level, and only when the title is selected, the fog resolution on the map would be enhanced so that everyone could benefit from such a fine player-contribution that is Texmod.

For example, have the title for Tyria selected and the fog there (and only there) would have a greater contrast; the same for Cantha and Elona.

How you ask a-net(or guru) to delete these thread because it makes mapping easier!

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3014664
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10039148
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10051772

Longasc · Nov 02, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Since when is the validity of claims decided by the number of postings in a thread. It is disappointing that stuff gets included in the community summary based on this, while other issues seem to get neglected.

The issue is "is using textmod to help with cartography a cheat".

This extends to more than just the mapping mods. THIS is the question.

I can only agree to ryanryanryan0310:

Quote:

Why does people think this mod makes it easy. All it does is save you a few eye squinting hours. You still got to run to the edges and sometimes fight mobs. It's helpful, but doesn't make it doable in 1 day or a week.

Yep. I was using this mod and I am still not Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer. I still have to hug tiny spots here and there.

The request made by the OP was that nobody should have a tool to help him identifying these spots, so that it takes longer and becomes more painful.

The process of acquiring this title can be summed up as eternal and painfully boring wallhugging, and the request is that everyone should have to put as much effort into this as those who already got the title the harder way.

Now this is just wishful thinking:

1. Many people could already create difference maps with Photoshop. Takes more effort, but works, too. Or compare maps, run GW in a Window and have a GMC map below.

2. You cannot stop the use of Texmod. You would force ANet to create some sort of anti-cheat-tool like Punkbuster to prevent the use of Texmod.

I wonder that ANet cares about cartography, as Texmod has much better uses:

50% health markers on the bar, spirit range on radar... these influence PvP, the competitive part of the game, but they are not hyped like that, while having much more impact on the game.

Sleeper Service · Nov 02, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

It would be nice that the options that Texmod gives to players be official toggable aids on the GUI. If anything this thread should start/continue pushing in that direction.

edit: note i said TOGGABLE. (is that even a word...)

Amon Warrior · Nov 02, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

How you ask a-net(or guru) to delete these thread because it makes mapping easier!

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3014664
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10039148
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10051772

Why would I ask to delete any of those threads? I'm very grateful for every single legitimate player contribution. It helps everyone to enjoy a better quality time with Guild Wars.

Because I consider Textmod such a nice tool it would be great if ArenaNet could improve the Cartographer title based on that mod.

I thanked Gaile Gray for her respect to the community and commitment to keep us informed, regardless of the different opinions exposed in this thread and the more sharp reactions to her posts. I wholly trust her to expose to the higher powers both sides of the issue.

Also, integrating a player-motivated idea into the game would be a magnificent PR move; much more than killing it.

JackRabbitSlim · Nov 02, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Torqual's posts, along with a few others, have done little but either overexaggerate or claim false and uninformed facts

I know this is a little late in the day, but I know both Torqual and the 2 mentioned in the OP - all of them are guildies. They did indeed get 2 GMC titles over the space of a weekend - admittedly, they didn't do much else, but they definitely did it. Their constant updates over guild chat made me pretty sure

I can't source this, or prove it, but I just had to confirm that it did happen.

ryanryanryan0310 · Nov 02, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackRabbitSlim

I know this is a little late in the day, but I know both Torqual and the 2 mentioned in the OP - all of them are guildies. They did indeed get 2 GMC titles over the space of a weekend - admittedly, they didn't do much else, but they definitely did it. Their constant updates over guild chat made me pretty sure

I can't source this, or prove it, but I just had to confirm that it did happen.

So it toke them 2 day to go from 0%-100% or from 95%+ to 100%?

JackRabbitSlim · Nov 02, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

As I'm not them, I don't know. Obviously it wasn't 0-100%, but I'm assuming around 60-70, to 100%, seeing as they hadn't made a push for cartographer before.

the_jos · Nov 02, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

Then you don't understand why people use texmod, the_jos. It's not about making this title a piece of cake to attain, it's to make up for a bad design. I disagree that dealing with the default fog as it is, is the optimal way to go about in a cartography system. I would very much like to see it changed

.

I don't understand it?

Exploration => Enter area, hug one wall from the entrance, circle entire area, cross if it's too big to uncover the center, zone into new area and repeat.
If you can't finish an area, note the spot where you ended and start the next time from there.
That's all it takes.

The fog system comes in when people did not do this from the start.
It helps people to keep track.
However, if someone did not hug the walls from the start, there will be a lot of fog around the edges and it's hard to spot that right away.
That's not bad fog design, it just means that people did not take exploration serious from the start and now pay the price.

I have helped numerous people with their Tyrian GMC because I know the pain of that last few percent.
However, as I've commented several times in threads about exploration, it's because people think it's an easy title (they see 80% completed, wow, that can't be hard...) they get into trouble.

This is the problem, not bad fog design or a Texmod feature missing in the game.

Esan · Nov 02, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

By the way, if anyone was planning to get LGMC, do it now while Texmodding is still legal. Pretend you are racing against the Anet programmers who are implementing the carto nerf as we speak.

Crom The Pale · Nov 02, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

The text mod does little to help those that are just starting to explore, on the other hand for players that have already beaten the game and have uncoverd 80-95% of all maps simply from farming/running/questing/missions it make that last little bit very quick and easy.

When the titles first came out I found my main char was at 85% of Tyria, since then I have slowly moved up to 99.4% with just a little bit of effort. I have hugged walls from ascalon to Kryta and will likely find my last few %'s in The Falls or Reed Bog.

Exploring/vaquishing all maps might take me another couple of months concidering how often I choose to do them. However with a text mod it would take me under 30 min to locate and run to those last few spots I am missing.

If the game had a built in feature that showed me where those spots were I would likely use it, but since it doesn't I will continue as I have in the past and take some personal pride in all the effort I put forth for this.

Psychology · Nov 02, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Take a look at this link:
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9504/gw002ry7.jpg the mod effectively loads in a fully explored map and highlights where you need to go - it's fairly obvious that 95% of the work has been done by someone else and you're just following in their footsteps. Without this mod, everything was fog, the missing areas were indistiguishable and you had to search for them - meaning you had to slowly scrape (fighting mobs as you go) to get results. Now the work is done for you and, with a good running build, it's a matter of hours to get Grandmaster.

I've got 96.6% on my tyrian GM title.

Now the problem i have is that their are little bits that i need to get to in order for me to scrape the extra %.

Now when i have this mod up it shows me shaded area's that cannot be reached and some that can, so is their a way of finding out which of the shaded area's i can and can't map.

bobrath · Nov 02, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

JQ was 0.5% when I mapped it from both sides. been there done that. Scraped in Shiro's little prison. Walked all the walls in every town methodically. Went through every area killing all and scraping walls til I had the perimeter and then filled every path with red dots and scraped the sides of large obstacles (hills/lakes/etc.).

Couple suggestions:

read this thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10032479
Lots of good suggestions and missed places

When you do Fort and Jade, be sure to watch the full intro videos - you can pick up some fog by doing this as well.

Have you entered and run the full challenge missions? (such as Altrumm Ruins)

TBH, pull down the mod in question and use TexMod - I think you might be surprised to see the little slivers that you could have sworn you wall hugged and missed. But I can understand if you are morally opposed to this.

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

@the_jos: There are many times where you think you hugged the walls all the way, and then you find out that you're stuck at 99.9% at the end and have no idea what you missed. Maybe you rushed in one tiny section, maybe you didn't push hard enough, etc. The point is that there is no definite way to know when you are finished exploring a zone until BOOM, you have 100% in the title. What would Vanquishing be like if you only got the title once you vanquished everything everywhere without that zone counter?

The number of people who get the title without relying on their map is far, far below those who do.

pumpkin pie · Nov 02, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

...

The number of people who get the title without relying on their map is far, far below those who do.

I'll treasure my cartography title even more

since I don't use the the cartography made easy texmod (and I wander why is it call MADE EASY) while everyone kept saying it did not make it easy, and claim that it is the same as if you don't use, so, why use texmod if it did not make the task easy?

My peeved is, if the mod made it easy, just admit it that you got your title the easy way, its not a crime to do things easy, you just didn't put in the effort, I on the other hand, like to do it the way ANET meant for it to be done. that's all. I can't understand why the denial that it is easier when you use texmod.

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I didn't put in the effort because I could see the fog better?

*head explodes*

pumpkin pie · Nov 02, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

you did not put in the effort of having to GUESS which area you did not uncovered.

i know it because I am doing it right now, going from one map to the next, clearing everything.

hahaha, having fun doing it, because that's a lot of gold (money) drop and loots (wanders why players complain theres not enough loot... probably because they took the shortcut and use texmod)

and getting the 0.1% only when I stumble upon it.

the texmod ways is I GIVE UP, i want to finished the title NOW! and you have overlay, and you see, OH THERE IT IS, WHY HAVE I NOT THINK OF IT, and you go to that one map that texmod pointed that you have a fog area and you clear that area, and voila, done. sure you have to clear the obstacle ONCE more on the way and that's it.

if a person doing it without texmod, I look at my map, and sees a suspicious spot, I go to that maps, clear the way, get to the suspicious area, BUMMERS ITS ALREADY BEEN CLEARED. et cetera.