Curse

Torqual · Oct 29, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

**EDIT 2nd November**

THIS DISCUSSION IS OVER. READ http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...213510&page=16

** Original post **

OK, before I start, no need for anyone to give me abuse. Yes, this is QQ, it's a whine, it's whatever you say it is. So save your breath.

I've just about finished my Legendary Cartographer title. I did Tyria a year ago (it took me 5-6 weeks) and I did Cantha earlier this year (4 weeks).

REAL Cartographers amongst us will know what this entails ... day after day going through each mission and explorable area, slowing scraping every inch of every wall. Waiting for the boardwalk to open to get 0.5%. Researching glitches like Eredon Terrace. Partying with someone that has 'Mayhem in the Market' to get into Vizunah Local. Organising 16 people to get into Jade Quarry together. Reading Livingston's cartography guide and picking off the points one by one, in some zones. I did all those things and only just scraped my way to Canthan GMC. I considered it one of the most difficult challenges in GW.... there really wasn't much leeway.

So, a couple of guys I know wanted to get their Phoenix for being People Know Me (2). They went and downloaded a mod for their game that recolours the map and shows visually all the missing 0.1% spots.

Yesterday these two guys popped up on my window and started bragging that they had done Canthan GMC in a day.

So, maybe some readers will understand if I find this a little sickening. What was even more annoying.... this mod was so good that one of them hadn't even been into JQ and neither of them even knew about the Eredon Terrace glitch. So no actual skill involved.

Spend 45 minutes killing every monster in a zone, and tracing the walls to get 0.1%? Or spend 2 minutes with a running build going from the nearest portal directly to the spot that will give you 0.1%?

What really irritates me is that when I challenged them about getting a title on the cheap, they actually defended themselves with lines like "we're doing all the same work as you...you still have to go to all the places". Right... so that's why it took me 4 weeks and you guys 1 day. It's like buying a University degree on the internet instead of attending the classes and sitting the exam. Don't tell me it's the same work, it's just..... not.

So, GW is full of titles that are allegedly being cheapened, and when I see the debate about making Treasure Hunter account-wide and people getting enraged about the suggestion, I kind of get where they are coming from. I have enough going on in my life that such things don't make me genuinely angry, or sad, but just a little peeved. I did the Cartographer titles because I enjoyed being an explorer, capping skills on the way, opening chests and trying new builds and hero builds. So this was fun. Getting the title at the end was only a part of this. I don't think anyone would do the title the 'old way' just to get a title. Surely not.... there were much easier ones (Sunspear farming for example). No, for me, it was an extra reward and just a little bit of structure to the game, something to do after the campaigns were completed and Protector titles obtained.

But now, you sit in Balthazar's Temple for a few minutes and look which titles people are maxing, it's Sunspear, Lightbringer and Legendary Cartographer. I got really surprised by the number of Legendary Cartographers appearing. Were there REALLY that many people prepared to spend months scraping walls and researching glitches?

Now it all makes sense. So people want PKM or IVI. So they google cartography aids. So they download a mod which changes their game map. 3 days of work.... Hey Presto! Legendary Cartographer! 4 titles. Quicker at this rate than Lightbringer farming.

So, I would like to conclude by saying to people: really don't bother with Cartography titles if you're looking for a badge of honour, any more. They used to mean you'd invested some effort but, right now, I honestly suspect that there are more people out there who got them by modding their game than getting them properly. It's impossible to distinguish who made this achievement in the way that A-Net intended it. Don't get me wrong, my Cartographer titles still mean something TO ME and nothing will take that away.... but I have 3 questions:

1) Is this cheating?
2) Is it a breach of the EULA?
3) Is there any way for A-Net to roll back these titles, and should they? Surely it's possible for them to know which clients have been tampered with... Just a thought. :-)

Anyway, this thread is not intended to get anyone into trouble. I am not naming names and in any case I think it's widespread.

But having someone pop up and gloat because they got your high-end title in a small fraction of the time you did kind of makes you want to be angry at someone. If not them, maybe the game designers? How many more titles will the goalposts move on? What next, a Signet that captures all elites in a zone when you step out of the portal and activate it? A nuclear bomb for Vanquishing? Shiro and Varesh take bribes to let you kill them?

Come on A-Net..... this is poor. Very poor.

Grenths Entropy · Oct 29, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

1) IMO it isnt cheating. Its a nice aid to find out where spots are missing. I used mods for getting my legendary cartographer and i only used the mods to about 98%. i then went onto comparing maps. So if u think mods are cheating then u must think comparing maps is cheating too?

2) Officially its against the EULA to use mods but Anet allows them as long as the community benefits from them.

3)No they should not and no i dont think its possible for them to track if u used a mod or not because its only the client side that gets changed, server side doesnt register anything

Torqual · Oct 29, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I used to read in here and see many desperate people saying "I'm on 99.6%....can't find those last 0.4% anywhere."

Don't get me wrong, I have less of a problem with people who have played the game without mods and put in the work only to be stuck on the brink. Canthan GMC was notorious for this, as it has less leeway than the others. So stuck in that position it's more understandable that someone should use all the resources available (not that I am condoning it - I'd never be that desperate).

But someone that uses a mod to go from 60% to 100% over a weekend so that can fast-track their KOABD ... well it only devalues the achievement of people that put in the work and did it without modding their game.

Take a look at this link: http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9504/gw002ry7.jpg the mod effectively loads in a fully explored map and highlights where you need to go - it's fairly obvious that 95% of the work has been done by someone else and you're just following in their footsteps. Without this mod, everything was fog, the missing areas were indistiguishable and you had to search for them - meaning you had to slowly scrape (fighting mobs as you go) to get results. Now the work is done for you and, with a good running build, it's a matter of hours to get Grandmaster.

'Legendary' was supposed to mean something. Yet another case of a Legendary title being reachable in a few hours. I had the same experience with Legendary Survivor. It took me a couple of months of carefully playing missions and capping skills. Then I found people posting on here about how they'd paid people to power-level them and farmed the title in half a day.

Sux to be me heh? :-) I really think A-Net could do something about this one though. Although it's possibly a bit late.

Friday · Oct 29, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Why should "Anet" do anything about this mod?

This mod has helped countless people stuck on 98%+ of their title. In fact this mod only becomes useful when you are that far and need to find those small difficult to find spots.

Plus, I can guarantee that those guys only used the mod for the last areas they needed, and that they had most of Cantha opened before they started on their "one day" (these are guys who have played through the game normally and now just want to max some title for HoM!) - and they still had to scrape the walls and cover all the ground you did. The fact that they dedicated one whole day to clearing up the last corners of the map was their choice and the fact that you did your mapping while doing other things at the same time was your choice. It WILL NOT take anyone ONE single day to start from scratch on a new char in Cantha and finish it, completely mapped... it will take considerably more time.

{sarcasm}Old man on a veranda watching the traffic go by... "lets all go back to walking around or riding horses - it's totally unfair and should not be allowed, that these young people can just whiz around at the speed of light in these new motor cars and get things done so much more easily than I did... in my day..." {/sarcasm}

Richardt · Oct 29, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Well, I think the OP does have a valid point. It's one thing to go out and do it the hard way, it's another to have someone to hold your hand (like using a cartography mod). Balthazar knows that I was a little peeved when they made the repuation rewards for the books 20-30k now as I spent the first Saturday of GWEN just farming Vanguard points to the get the armor.
But on the other hand there are alot of ppl out there who do have difficulty comparing two things-like maps. I'm currently at 99% Elong, 98.7% Cantha and 98% Tyria, and from looking at the maps I can't make out much of a difference and have often thought of using those mods. I haven't yet cause to me it would feel like I'm cheating the system, even though I'm just using the resources at hand.
One thing I will fully agree on is that those 2 guys bragging about GMC in one day-that seems to me that they're just trying to get a rise out of those that worked on the title and that's just poor showmanship. It's alright to brag about it, just don't do it in a way that devalues something someone worked hard for.

Antheus · Oct 29, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

The problem isn't the means of obtaining titles. You need to scrape 100%, no more, no less. And using an overlay mod doesn't change that. Also - Cantha is small.

The real problem is: SOME PEOPLE THINK TITLES MEAN SOMETHING.

Titles are worthless. Even "mere god". I'd prefer to call highest rank: "That, which has no life" or something.

If you feel that the title you achieved is something you can be proud of - fine.

But never expect that a single other person will care about it.

Titles are worthless and do not make you special. And it works in reverse - because someone gained a title, they aren't anymore special than they were.

Quote:

{sarcasm}Old man on a veranda watching the traffic go by... "lets all go back to walking around or riding horses - it's totally unfair and should not be allowed, that these young people can just whiz around at the speed of light in these new motor cars and get things done so much more easily than I did... in my day..." {/sarcasm}

Let 'em have 'em fancy automobiles and motor bikes. Just make them get off my lawn.

Come to think of it, there is one achievement I would be congratulate upon: Maxing KoaBD in shortest time. Anything goes, even eBay. That would show true mastery of everything. Kinda of a speedrun.

Richardt · Oct 29, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The problem isn't the means of obtaining titles. You need to scrape 100%, no more, no less. And using an overlay mod doesn't change that. Also - Cantha is small.

The real problem is: SOME PEOPLE THINK TITLES MEAN SOMETHING.

Titles are worthless. Even "mere god". I'd prefer to call highest rank: "That, which has no life" or something.

If you feel that the title you achieved is something you can be proud of - fine.

But never expect that a single other person will care about it.

Titles are worthless and do not make you special. And it works in reverse - because someone gained a title, they aren't anymore special than they were.

Let 'em have 'em fancy automobiles and motor bikes. Just make them get off my lawn.

Come to think of it, there is one achievement I would be congratulate upon: Maxing KoaBD in shortest time. Anything goes, even eBay. That would show true mastery of everything. Kinda of a speedrun.

See....this is just frustrating. Saying that you find titles are meaningless and you don't give a hoot about them-that's one thing.

Saying that everyone else feels that way is just being an a**.

I have several friends who don't care about titles and as such don't work on them. But they at least appreciate when someone works really hard at one and actually earns it. 'Cause that's what titles are all about-showing off an in game achievement-something that you can be proud of. I know that I'm proud of every single title I have (I'm up to People Know Me) and I've gotten PMs about which titles I've maxed and whether or not I have any advice for those working on getting that Rainbow Phoenix.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I see someone walk through town with rank4 or higher in KoBD, I take notice (and I know other ppl take notice too-just look in local chat).

So just because you find titles meaningless doesn't give you the right to insult those of us who work hard and actually earn something in game.

X Chilli · Oct 29, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Just out of curiosity...what's the name of the programm.

Now to the topic, i kinda agree with Friday.

Richardt · Oct 29, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

You can find the info at:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide...-game_graphics
This not only has the GMC mods and a link to where you can download the program (TexMod) but it also tells you ANet's official stance on the subject.
It also has other mods (like making your shield look like the Xbox logo etc.) that you can use too.

Have fun! (Cause that's what we're all about

)

Antheus · Oct 29, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

So just because you find titles meaningless doesn't give you the right to insult those of us who work hard and actually earn something in game.

Why an insult?

Titles won't buy you my respect. If anything, whining over titles is much worse. Do them if you feel like it - but commanding respect from others is a joke. The only thing that's sillier is in WoW where a level 70 calls level 68 a noob.

Long ago, skill purchases had no upper bound. It was because people whined that they cost too much that today it's possible to buy skills for 1 plat per piece.

Think about it while maxing the skill hunter. Or I'll start whining about how everyone has it easy, and that 999th skill should cost 100 plat as it was meant in the beginning, and that it's too easy to max it.

But the titles you achieve will disappear the day GW goes down. What then? Will you say: That was 10,000 hours well spent? I earned respect of thousands of players? Are you sure?

No, titles do not earn one respect. But complaining over "too easy" makes one lose all respect. Look at other thread about treasure hunter.

Shiishii Momo · Oct 29, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Torqual, congrats on your title, lord knows i wouldn't have the patience for it. The thing is this, it's like when I did my skill capping, I didn't go and clear the whole map of creeps to get to the cap I wanted, I took the fastest route from outpost to the boss, avoiding everything I could. The tex mod for the fog is a tool for those wanting to get their 100%. Just as already mentioned in the post, you still have to do the exploring, but now you don't have to sit there staring at the map with a magnifying glass trying to figure out if that one pixel is fog or not. My Tyria map is at 97% or so now, and I cannot for the life of me see where the remaining 6% is, and I have taken my toon over every inch of Tyria. Now, I have no plans to try for cartographer, but if I was to, I would definitely use the mod to find the remaining area(s), rather than spen hours and hours of aggravation running around to what I "think" might yield me a tenth of a percent.

Richardt · Oct 29, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Why an insult?

Titles won't buy you my respect. If anything, whining over titles is much worse. Do them if you feel like it - but commanding respect from others is a joke. The only thing that's sillier is in WoW where a level 70 calls level 68 a noob.

It's pretty insulting when you say that someone else's achievement is meaningless.

If you don't like titles, then don't do them.

Just don't belittle those of us who want to spend our gaming hours working on titles.

As for commanding respect...I never said everyone had to respect someone for having a title that they don't have. All that I'm saying is speak for yourself, and don't speak for the entire community. You don't think titles are worthy of respect? Fine. Just don't disrespect those of us who work on them.

Hobbs · Oct 29, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I did Tyrian, Canthan and Elonian GMCs with no mods and I did my own map comparisons. It took a while and I felt a sense of achievement finishing it, like I do with all the titles i've maxed. However I couldn't really be bothered going through all this hassle again for GW:EN cartography so i downloaded the mod and just do a few % when i'm bored. When I first heard about the Texmod "Cartography Made Easy" I thought it would rob me of my hard work. But long story short, it didn't, I still got the title and if others had more resources so what?

Antheus · Oct 29, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

It's pretty insulting when you say that someone else's achievement is meaningless.

If you don't like titles, then don't do them.

Just don't belittle those of us who want to spend our gaming hours working on titles.

As for commanding respect...I never said everyone had to respect someone for having a title that they don't have. All that I'm saying is speak for yourself, and don't speak for the entire community. You don't think titles are worthy of respect? Fine. Just don't disrespect those of us who work on them.

Read the OP again.

He's belittling everyone who uses cartography mod, although that mod doesn't change anything, and you still need to walk 100% of entire area.

Yes... one truly shouldn't speak for all. Good advice.

Quote:

So, I would like to conclude by saying to people: really don't bother with Cartography titles if you're looking for a badge of honour, any more. They used to mean you'd invested some effort but, right now, I honestly suspect that there are more people out there who got them by modding their game than getting them properly. It's impossible to distinguish who made this achievement in the way that A-Net intended it. Don't get me wrong, my Cartographer titles still mean something TO ME and nothing will take that away.... but I have 3 questions:

Am I really the one belittling achievement?

Fril Estelin · Oct 29, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

It's like buying a University degree on the internet instead of attending the classes and sitting the exam. Don't tell me it's the same work, it's just..... not.

Very good comparison indeed, becauser these guys (with degrees bought on the net) usually get the job they deserve: utter crap.

What I see in your long description is two kind of people: the one scratching the surface of things and that only get joy and self-esteem when showing off to others; and the one that takes great pleasure in spending time and efforts going through the process and congratulating himself over the personal achievement.

Two complete opposites, and tbh I pity these guys, really pity them. I hope they only have this attitude in-game, if not they won't go very far (may be they bought a degree on the net?

)

Quote:

I did the Cartographer titles because I enjoyed being an explorer, capping skills on the way, opening chests and trying new builds and hero builds. So this was fun. Getting the title at the end was only a part of this. I don't think anyone would do the title the 'old way' just to get a title.

Agree. And I cannot wait for the day (?) when I'll be able to achieve this (I should spend less time on GWG

)

Quote:

So, I would like to conclude by saying to people: really don't bother with Cartography titles if you're looking for a badge of honour, any more.

May here lies the secret of "success": don't aim for the "badge of honour", if only the one that you'll give yourself!

Quote:

1) Is this cheating?
2) Is it a breach of the EULA?
3) Is there any way for A-Net to roll back these titles, and should they? Surely it's possible for them to know which clients have been tampered with...

Actually I understand that it'd be technically easy but probably quite dangerous for Anet (close to the spyware, look what happened to Sony and their blue-ray discs...). But this is not Anet's problem: GW is a software and as any software it'll get "abused", no one can do ANYTHING about it.

The same "technology" (modding) that will enable you to get GWLP or pre-Searing Ascalon scenery in post-Searing, will enable you to do things like that. It's a two-sided sword.

Quote:

Come on A-Net..... this is poor. Very poor.

Point the finger in the right direction: it's poor GW players (probably not a lot of them).

freekedoutfish · Oct 29, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

IMO its not right to allow people to use mods ingame which give that huge an advantage (if it doesnt infact highlight areas), but then they dont allow others! Its hypercritical and its unfair on those who did that work without the mods.

But then there are two sides to the coin...

1) You have a person who spent weeks exploring and cant find the last 0.1% and they use the mod to help.
2) You have a person who just wants a max title and uses the mod from the start and its done within a day.

Im sure the mod was created with the best intentions, but it is basically getting exploited. My opinion is that such a mod shouldnt kick in until you have 90% and THEN it helps you get the last 10%.

But I personally would never use such a thing.

I admit I compared maps using photoshop, but that is NO where near as bad as a mod which actually highlights areas ingame.

But there is nothing you can do! Once again Anet has stood back and devalued ANOTHER title. Cartographer used to mean something, and now its nothing but an easy 4 extra titles.

Fril Estelin · Oct 29, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Iuse mods ingame which give that huge an advantage

What advantage? Title is not advantage. And even spending less time in real-life achieving GMC is not an advantage, since anyone can do it.

Quote:

But there is nothing you can do! Once again Anet has stood back and devalued ANOTHER title. Cartographer used to mean something, and now its nothing but an easy 4 extra titles.

Stop scapegoating Anet. To implement anti-modding, they'd probably have to create spyware that would look on your computer (i.e. outstide the GW folder) for modding tools. Do you feel comfortable with that? (hint: potential for abuse is HUGE, people do NOT like spywares, full stop)

Martin Firestorm · Oct 29, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

REAL Cartographers amongst us will know what this entails ... day after day going through each mission and explorable area, slowing scraping every inch of every wall. Waiting for the boardwalk to open to get 0.5%. Researching glitches like Eredon Terrace. Partying with someone that has 'Mayhem in the Market' to get into Vizunah Local. Organising 16 people to get into Jade Quarry together. Reading Livingston's cartography guide and picking off the points one by one, in some zones. I did all those things and only just scraped my way to Canthan GMC. I considered it one of the most difficult challenges in GW.... there really wasn't much leeway.

I have never understood why anyone would do all this in the first place. It sounds boring and tedious. It sounds like you even found it that way. And for all that you get some title which I would just assume you turn off anyway so I could actually click on the merchants or xunlai chests instead of all the names/titles all around them. But as far as your sense of accomplishment goes, let me point out that these guys using the mod had to do many of these things also, right? The mod doesn't help them deal with empty jade quarry, doesn't get them into Vizunah local/foreign, and doesn't get them in the boardwalk any sooner. IMO there is not much prestige to be had via playing GW anyway (I don't get the armor thing either). Who cares what some other player who you don't even know thinks? Its just fun to play, so if you enjoy doing all that stuff to get your grand title, then it has all the value that you need, but if not, why in the world would you be doing it?

Antheus · Oct 29, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

But there is nothing you can do! Once again Anet has stood back and devalued ANOTHER title. Cartographer used to mean something, and now its nothing but an easy 4 extra titles.

Do you realize you're "insulting" everyone who has achieved cartographer title?

The difference between my stance of "all titles are worthless by design" and "another title made worthless" is that with time, all titles will become worthless. I just skip to the end.

Quote:

I admit I compared maps using photoshop, but that is NO where near as bad as a mod which actually highlights areas ingame.

So how far may one go before it's cheating? How much can be automated before a title loses respect?

What about people who got 95%+ Tyria before the title even existed? How would they feel about comparing maps?

Richardt · Oct 29, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Read the OP again.

He's belittling everyone who uses cartography mod, although that mod doesn't change anything, and you still need to walk 100% of entire area.

Yes... one truly shouldn't speak for all. Good advice.

Am I really the one belittling achievement?

I see where you're coming from here.

Irregardless of how they got-they got it. A GMC is still worthy of respect whether you did it the hard way or the easy way.

Using a Cart. mod isn't for me, but hey if you want to use one-go for it.