Curse

Smile Like Umean It · Nov 25, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Well, first reply and we already have the typical (no offence) answer. There are "always" flaws, ALWAYS. It reminds me of this discussion on the /thanks proposed feature in the Sanitarium. It's not about the theoretical balance between the good and bad aspects of an idea, but rather about creation of opportunities than match the capabilities of a sufficiently big part of the GW community. In other words, give it a chance

.

So, just because something is flawed by nature, we shouldn't point it out? Well, that's just stupid. How exactly do you think anything will be improved?

freaky naughty · Nov 26, 2007, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

No, it wouldn't.

Kindness appears out of need, and fear of consequence. Human species is predatorial in nature, and will do anything to win - compensating for its numerous weaknesses. Unlike most animals, where strength determines the hierarchy.

Humans utilize mind. That involves exploitation of others, and complete lack of consideration.

People don't get kind to each other because they feel like it. Only when there is more profit to be had in kindness.

I hate it when people try to explain kindness, emotion, and society with their goddamn evolution theories. Who cares if the human species is predatory in nature? I haven't hunted for my food in quite awhile, and I never lash out at anyone for no reason. You don't need to study psychology to be nice to someone.

Fril Estelin · Nov 26, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Kindness appears out of need, and fear of consequence. Human species is predatorial in nature, and will do anything to win - compensating for its numerous weaknesses. Unlike most animals, where strength determines the hierarchy.

Humans utilize mind. That involves exploitation of others, and complete lack of consideration.

People don't get kind to each other because they feel like it. Only when there is more profit to be had in kindness.

6 billions+ people on earth atm. Tens of thounsands of years of history. All summed up in this ridiculous message? Yeah sure, force is still a mean to arrive at one's aims, but the human mind (and not only brain) is capable of much greater things (I can already see people trying to prove that there's nothing "great" here). There is a side to this world that was, is and always will be independent from "gains" or "profits" (in the financial/numerical sense of course).

But if your theory is really right, the OP's idea is doomed and thus should have insignificant effects. Which is a test I'm sure it'll pass, should it be tested. Unless things that are not supposed to work in theory actually work in practice (Yhprum's law, the converse of Murphy's law).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smile Like Umean It

So, just because something is flawed by nature, we shouldn't point it out? Well, that's just stupid. How exactly do you think anything will be improved?

Things aren't improved solely by "pointing out", you have to try to make more constructive criticisms. A lot of good ideas end up in the bin because of people thinking "it won't work". And very often (you can see that obviously on GWG) arguments are "local" ones, it's like that because I see it like that and don't try to make me think otherwise (ideas are free, they're never really imposed, in a non-coercive environment ... though one could ask whether we are in one given the level of addition of certain people).

(honestly one cannot be totaly surprised by the reaction to the OP's message, we live in a world that tend to emphasize the "dark side", so to speak, and make us believe that the laws of nature are the only ones that make logical sense, see post quoted above; I guess that when people'll stop answering "positively" to posts in this thread it'll be seen as a sign that this is a bad idea, while it should only be seen as a good idea that never came to life)

Antheus · Nov 26, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

There is a side to this world that was, is and always will be independent from "gains" or "profits" (in the financial/numerical sense of course).

Yes, they are maximization of profit. Either company, food on table, feeling warm, .... Human existence really isn't as complex as it seems. It's a very basic maximization of profit

Kindness exists if there's a benefit to be had from it. Nothing more.

In GW, there is absolutely no benefit to be gained from it.

freaky naughty · Nov 26, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Yes, they are maximization of profit. Either company, food on table, feeling warm, .... Human existence really isn't as complex as it seems. It's a very basic maximization of profit

Kindness exists if there's a benefit to be had from it. Nothing more.

In GW, there is absolutely no benefit to be gained from it.

Well what about that warm fuzzy feeling inside when you make someone's day? I'm completely serious it feels pretty good you should try it.

Clarissa F · Nov 26, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Things aren't improved solely by "pointing out", you have to try to make more constructive criticisms. A lot of good ideas end up in the bin because of people thinking "it won't work". And very often (you can see that obviously on GWG) arguments are "local" ones, it's like that because I see it like that and don't try to make me think otherwise (ideas are free, they're never really imposed, in a non-coercive environment ... though one could ask whether we are in one given the level of addition of certain people).

(honestly one cannot be totaly surprised by the reaction to the OP's message, we live in a world that tend to emphasize the "dark side", so to speak, and make us believe that the laws of nature are the only ones that make logical sense, see post quoted above; I guess that when people'll stop answering "positively" to posts in this thread it'll be seen as a sign that this is a bad idea, while it should only be seen as a good idea that never came to life)

A great message, yet it is brought to GWguru, the land of more flames than Southern California a month ago; that and a$$hats who use a simple explanation for something which much better minds still don't know the answer.

Antheus · Nov 26, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by freaky naughty

Well what about that warm fuzzy feeling inside when you make someone's day? I'm completely serious it feels pretty good you should try it.

Isn't that profit as well?

Most people just prefer more tangible rewards, since it reflects the times we live in, with emphasis on material wealth.

freaky naughty · Nov 26, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Isn't that profit as well?

Most people just prefer more tangible rewards, since it reflects the times we live in, with emphasis on material wealth.

Hmmm I never thought of that fuzzy feeling as profit. Besides you don't sound like the kind of person who "feels" if you know what I mean. When you help someone you don't get anything but it makes you feel good. Why not just jack-off ( I couldn't get any better examples) that makes you feel good for a few seconds too. But the thing with giving a hand is it makes both people feel well.

Zeek Aran · Nov 26, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Not completely relevant but...

When someone asks for 50g to open storage, it's rarely a new player. It's usually just a storage character or just made character of an experienced player or they wouldn't be going straight to storage before getting the 50g themselves.

freaky naughty · Nov 26, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeek Aran

Not completely relevant but...

When someone asks for 50g to open storage, it's rarely a new player. It's usually just a storage character or just made character of an experienced player or they wouldn't be going straight to storage before getting the 50g themselves.

Well that doesn't make giving them 50g less nice, just a little more pointless.

chowmein69 · Nov 26, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

i gave a person50g for storage and then evryday he starts asking me for money..

Aera Lure · Nov 26, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

People don't get kind to each other because they feel like it. Only when there is more profit to be had in kindness.

Despite there being absolutely no profit to be had and no gains to be made in being kind or helpful in GW, I still am when inspired to do so when I feel like it. I join PUGs to monk in missions I dont need, rarely get any thanks etc. Help on the odd occasional quest for some random person. Its actually quite fun from time to time and you're free from the routine and necessity of finishing this task fast and efficiently as per usual. Can just play and occasionally remember why you started in the first place.

Very generally, your theory has some broad strokes over why I think I'd agree we'll never live in an ideal world. It just fails to accommodate individual whim.

Cargan · Nov 26, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I wish more people would be nice in GW. ok, so most of the time I just do things with my partner and heroes, but when we get bored our first choice of things to do is go help pugs.

example: Done a HM dungeon and wanted to do something more fun. We went to THK and joined a pug party (and laughed in whispers and some of the pug skillbars). We breeze through the mission and they all say thanks and boost our ego's a bit. Helping them through the next quest I ask the elementalist pug to show me his staff (had seen his skill bar and didn't expect much from the weapon). It turned out to be some non-max purple fire staff. Upon reaching RoF I opened trade and gave him a free Magmus' Staff (which I had gotten in the dungeon just before going to help pugs).

What did I gain from this? a bigger ego (just what I need!), a hour or 2 of amusement doing missions with real people, the satisfaction of knowing that I've made someones gaming experience a better one. It also sets a good example for newer players to follow.

Maybe one day that pug will do the same for another new player. I like to hope so.

pamelf · Nov 26, 2007, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Well I've had relatively good experiences in GW. I'll always help new people, and explain things they don't know. I'll stop scammers and lend people 50g for storage. It's only 50g. It's not like I have anything intense to spend that money on, or really pressing issues in game that stop me from helping someone out. I've just found that if you help people you'll notice other people helping in game and it makes the whole game experience a little less anti-social.

Besides, especially in guilds, if you help them out, they are far more likely to help you out in return.

Hailey Anne · Nov 26, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coifmeister

Giving a first timer 50g to set up their storage.

I cant stand people who ask for money for storage.
In Proph you should have 50g before getting to post.
In Do the tutorial section and youll have 50g. Or do the first quest or 2.
In NF you should have atleast 100g before getting to storage.

So people who are asking for money for storage are either Lazy( which you shouldnt help them for being lazy)
Or just scamming free money(also dont need to help with this)

Sujoy · Nov 26, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I loved the movie, though the guy dies in the end, so I won't give it a try

DreamRunner · Nov 26, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

No, it wouldn't.

Kindness appears out of need, and fear of consequence. Human species is predatorial in nature, and will do anything to win - compensating for its numerous weaknesses. Unlike most animals, where strength determines the hierarchy.

Humans utilize mind. That involves exploitation of others, and complete lack of consideration.

People don't get kind to each other because they feel like it. Only when there is more profit to be had in kindness.

No, people are kind to others because they want to feel good. However how is there any profit for loving your children? Simple there isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freaky naughty

Hmmm I never thought of that fuzzy feeling as profit. Besides you don't sound like the kind of person who "feels" if you know what I mean. When you help someone you don't get anything but it makes you feel good.

You do kind things because you want something out of it. ie makes you feel good. That is what he is saying I think, although profit is a bad word to be used.

Does he sound aesthetic? I don't know and to judge that is a pretty long-shot not to mention it can insulting and rude.

Antheus · Nov 26, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

However how is there any profit for loving your children? Simple there isn't.

That's maternal/fraternal instinct, not kindness.

The profit lies in survival of the species. For humans, being good to children will produce strong offspring that can survive in the world. But humans are resilient, and can survive even without that (harsh reality).

For some animals, strongest child kills all of its siblings, since that means more food from parents. In that case, not being kind ensures highest survival chance. For yet others, strength lies in the masses. Turtles, for example. Hundreds per nest, one or two will survive. Parents aren't involved, it's luck of the draw.

In MMOs, things are really trivial. If you want kind community, make players strongly interdependent. GW sorely lacks any hint of that, and so the community has no need for kindness. Due to large community social spheres cannot form, since whomever you meet today, you'll almost certainly not meet again - even if you want to, the game will make it hard.

The reason most other games have shards limited to 2000-4000 concurrent players isn't solely technical. This size is ideal for forming social ties. Even if the world seems large, it's small enough to keep people together, since they'll invariable run into each other over and over. Something which doesn't happen in GW due to large number of alts and incredibly isolated world.

The only viable comparison is EvE, and there, corporations are everything. If you don't get involved in one, you stand no chance. And once you do join one, you'll be part of that social circle, and little more.

DreamRunner · Nov 26, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

That's maternal/fraternal instinct, not kindness.

The profit lies in survival of the species. For humans, being good to children will produce strong offspring that can survive in the world. But humans are resilient, and can survive even without that (harsh reality).

For some animals, strongest child kills all of its siblings, since that means more food from parents. In that case, not being kind ensures highest survival chance. For yet others, strength lies in the masses. Turtles, for example. Hundreds per nest, one or two will survive. Parents aren't involved, it's luck of the draw.

Instinct? Then how come a mother and a father who isn't the biological parent come into such closeness with children? A step-mum or dad can be a mother or father figure in a children's life.

But by can a father or mother figure hate their children? Yes but all types of kindness is done by instinct, right....

So if I am a parent to a child who is mentally retarded, then is the parent kind to the child because of strong offspring?

its quite clear that you have not dealt with children or parenting much at all. And I don't think many people like your pragmatic idealism.

Solveig Ikram · Nov 26, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Regarding the OP: Great idea, but the random good deed should not be something trivial like 50g for storage, staying on in a mission, etc.

The things listed in the OP and then latched on by everyone here is trivial.
To really make an impression you have to make a life (read game) changing effort to help your fellow GW'ers.

Use your imagination and latch onto opportunities. There is lots of good to be done out there. Don't ask for a pat on the back when you've accomplished said deed but just walk away. If you helped 10 people in a meaningful way, and 1 of those people follows your example then you've already made a difference.