Curse

Bryant Again · Dec 09, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I don't know what to say to that.

Other than: Find better players. If you have crap people on your team of course you will fail.

I hope you're not going to try to prove that your H/H squad can outperform 8 skilled players.

She might've been referring to PUGs.

artay · Dec 09, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

And people wonder why pugs are so terrible, people need to play with others more. That being said if I don't feel like going through the pain of grouping with an unexperienced player, I will h/h.

So basically I conclude nothing.

-Sonata- · Dec 09, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Short lesson on politics: never say that common people should change themselves. That is one thing that will never change. Just like we don't stop climate change by instructing consumers to consume less electricity, but rather change technology to more ecologically sensitive direction.

This isn't politics. This is Guild Wars.

People will argue guild wars is a co-op game. I agree. That means Team. Whether it's your Guild who parties up, or a PUG, you're still part of the team. If you think you're an effective team mate by telling others in your group that he/she is a scrub, that's an odd definition of a team player.

Have you ever been on a team? Sports maybe? I'm sure you have. We all have. Ever see a coach tell a player to wise up in his attitude because he knows that bad attitude is hurting the team? I sure have.

Better yet. Have you ever watched those Team Tournments for Video Games on TV? Are those teams mouthing off to each other, refusing to communicate, and not listening to each other? No, they're not. And when one does get out of line, the rest of the team is right there to tell that team mate to wise up, you're out of line, we have work to do.

The best of the best in Teams are the ones who effectively communicate, DON'T start mouthing off like a 10 year old, talk, plan, make changes, and who willingly take advice for change so the team can benefit. You know what? I envy those teams and I strive to make mine like those. They don't throw hissy fits. They work as a unit, they help each other, they don't put each other down, and they get the job done. I want to be part of that, but that can't happen when there's one, or two, bad apples, who refuse to act like adults.

So in conclusion yes. In Teams, business, sport, or Guild Wars, asking team members, who aren't holding their own in the attitude department, to wise up and change; Work with the rest and stop pounding your chest is something people should do because it doesn't matter how elite of a player you are. If you're not going to work with the team, noone will ever know how skilled you are. If you're just going to hold an attitude, not help your team mates if something you see might be wrong, that team will not achieve the goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Guild Wars was meant to be played in human groups until ANET realized why it didn't work and added heroes.

And before AI heros came along in Nightfall, what was the other AI option?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Mr. holier-than-thou is willing to compromize the success of himself and six others because one noob doesn't quite carry his weight in PUG team. It's your moral choice, but I would personally choose success for majority. It's because of people like you why PUGs suck so big time, and because PUGs suck so big time, no one who knows how to play will join them. When skilled players don't join... the vicious circle is complete.

Mr? And please spare me the holier than thou stuff.

Back to topic. Let's read what I said carefully instead of snipping for context.

I will never, ever, boot a player for a skill bar that may not work well in a certain area.

That means, which I thought was easy enough the first time, is if I'm making a pug and someone pings me an obvious bad build, that's not criteria for an auto-kick by itself. I will never, ever, look at someones skills, call them a noob, or whatever the popular phrase of the month is, and kick them so I can laugh at their expense.

By saying "Picking up my own slack", that means if someone who may be lessed skilled is having trouble, I will do what it takes to ensure he survives so the group can survive. I didn't realize making small sacrifices and giving aid when it's needed, made me holier than thou.

But yes, if I, or we, have to take a few extra minutes, or if I have to play decoy, or if I have to stop my attacks to save my team mate who's being cornered, I will make that sacrifice. Lending a hand when needed is what I do and giving the non-vetern Guild Wars player some small tips, instead of telling him how much he sucks, is how that player will learn to play at higher levels.

They can't be helped, or taught, if they're just going to be kicked into the dirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Doing so, aren't you also a "problem child"?

Nice try on the reversal, but it was off the rim.

However, let's make the fantasy situations.

Situation A) Assume, for a moment, I invite you to a group. Let's just say DoA for example, could be anywhere really. Let's say the moment you enter the group, I start insulting you because of your class. Maybe someone else reads your skill bar and thinks you're pathetic for x-skill. Or maybe someone sees your LB rank, thinks it's worthless, and without even knowing that you could very well be an extremely high skilled player, insults you endlessly.

Or maybe noone does any of that, but while your reading the team chat, the rest of the group is arguing about everything, insulting each other, and it's going nowhere.

Would you stay?

I don't know many people who would. Quite frankly I wouldn't blame you at all if you left that group. It's obvious they don't give a damn about your skill. If they're going to write you off as liability even before you take a single step, where's the point?

Situation B) Am I, or you, are the problem child if we get invited to a group, ping our bars when requested, and get called a ------- idiot because we don't have the flavor of the month off of the wiki? No. C'mon, let's be reasonable here.

Situation C) If you and I were in a PUG as lead, we set our skills, agreed on our approach, we're satisfied as to how we were going to tackle and achieve the goal.....and one, or maybe even two others, starts ordering us that it will be "His way or else", would that make us the problem? If you know this player, who you've invited, is going to be stubborn and will refuse to work with the others while in the mission, or area, that would make us the problem if we removed him?

As I said from the start - The biggest threat to a PUG's success, or failure, is one persons inability to work with others. When the mouthy attitudes begin, insulting, refusing to give input, or suggest in a proper manner, it's the biggest red flag that can be waved around.

arcanemacabre · Dec 09, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Sonata, well said.

beregond · Dec 09, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

OK. I love to solo at times. I love grouping with real people at times. I think I soloed most of GW:EN, a reasonable amount of NF. But I also like to team up, especially with guildies.

Aeon221 · Dec 09, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

By saying "Picking up my own slack", that means if someone who may be lessed skilled is having trouble, I will do what it takes to ensure he survives so the group can survive. I didn't realize making small sacrifices and giving aid when it's needed, made me holier than thou.

Only we demons, lost upon the great lines of this otherworldly script, caught with but five senses in a dream made for ten, would find bitterness in such sweet words.

As a great man once whispered to a world wasted with warfare, only together can we reach beyond the competitive equilibria, only with arms linked in brotherly love can we with no uncertain step stride past the pitfalls of our ego and id, only as one can we escape into the bright new sunlit dream of peace and plenty.

Only together, not alone.

Bryant Again · Dec 09, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Sonata, well said.

Seconded! I hope you stay around, Sonata!

MrSlayer · Dec 09, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

*SNIP*

Very well said. This game needs more people with attitudes like you.

However, the situation I find myself in more and more, and the situation which causes me to be insulting and mouthy.

1) We pick up a PUG for something. His skillbar is awful. Instead of kicking him, we explain to him the reason that firestorm is a bad skill for a Fissure run; that it causes scatter and doesn't provide enough damage. He argues with us and refuses to remove it, even with 6 of the 8-man-team trying to explain (without insulting) why it is bad that enemies scatter.

We enter the FoW, everything's going well and, sure enough, low-damage-scatter-effect. Ok, no worries, we'll just hope he saw that and ask him not to use it again, for the sake of the group. No luck, he continues to use it. He refuses to co-operate and insults us until, eventually, the entire group gets sick of him and flames, insults and bad-mouths him.

Sadly, with alot of PUGs, this is the case. The above situation is an exact replica of a situation I have been in, maybe 2 or 3 times. I am not exactly the worlds friendliest player; I do my job and if I see other's aren't doing theirs, after explaining it maybe 3 or 4 times, I start getting a little pissy with them. However, after running a Monk for 9 months, I also spot when I have made the screw up (no matter which character I'm playing) and make apologies where they're needed.

But when the people you are trying to give a chance seem like they don't WANT to be given a chance, you might as well give up.

Yes, sometimes I get a PUG group with people who listen, who thank me for my good tanking/monking/nuking, endure and laugh jokingly at me when I screw up, who congratulate me on my drops and likewise for them, who are ALWAYS willing to accept advice on their builds.

Sadly, this just doesn't happen enough.

tmr819 · Dec 09, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Solo play is great for specific tasks like skill capping, map scraping, farming bosses, etc. However, common tasks such as mission completion is something I think that should be done with group play. It is extremely helpful for new players to observe experienced players in order to help them learn how to play this game effectively. It was helpful for me when I first started Guild Wars, and I've been playing since like 1 month after the release of the first game. This experience also helped me find a lot of friends in this game, some of which I still have contact with in game, some of which have moved on to other things. It seems like since the introduction of heroes that part of the game has been lost since experienced players tend to just go by themselves. Some PuGs may be bad, but I guarantee you they are at least always interesting. That is the thing I love most about PuGs.

Though we play this game somewhat differently, I agree with most of what you are saying here, Haxor. I have had some great times in PUGs and (better still) guild groups and have made some good friends online that way.

I have also learned a lot from other players while doing missions or dungeons with them. As an example of this, I had my "standard" way of completing the Gate of Madness mission in Nightfall with an h/h team that worked well and earned Masters. However, I recently did this mission in a group and learned there was another route that avoided fighting some of the Shiroken spawns. It was a helpful thing to learn!

So, although I am primarily a solo player, I think grouping is great and, yes, I even enjoy PUGs and I don't freak out and have a hissy fit if a PUG wipes. It's just a game, after all. Besides, you can learn as much from a wipeout sometimes as you can from a successful run.

But I like having a choice in how I play. In WoW, if you are level 58 or 60 or so and want to run some part of the instanced dungeon Dire Maul (an irritatingly long set of dungeons, actually), you MUST find four other players that are at about the same level, have the time and desire to do it, and have the right builds. You MUST find a healer, a tank, dps, etc. It sucks. It's torture.

In WoW, in other words, much of the game is reserved exclusively for player groups. That's how it is in most MMOs I have tried. As if completing the dungeon wasn't hard enough and time-consuming enough, you also have to spend a godawful amount of time finding other people to group with. This kind of mandatory grouping sucked the fun right out of WoW for me. Yes, you can level up to 70 and do other things, but, no, you CANNOT run the instances on your own and get the primo rewards.

Guild Wars is different. Players have a choice in GW1 whether they choose to group or not to complete various objectives. I like being able to choose how I play and I want that feature kept in GW2. Without the heroes and henches, I am not sure how this will be possible.

If, in GW2, a sole player (perhaps with his/her "NPC Companion") can complete the same dungeon instances and missions for the same rewards that a player group can complete, I'll be satisfied with that. But if GW2 adds "player-group-required instance chokepoints" the way almost every other MMO out there does, then that'll really be the end of GW for me.

In GW1, if no one is around or maybe you just feel like soloing (which I do, most of the time

), you have no problem finding what you need and you just go. In WoW, as a casual player, it is difficult to have a steady stream of friends and guildies to help you out if you only play once in a while: even then, it only works (i) if they are online at the time, (ii) if they are at about the same level as you, (iii) if they have the right build, (iv) if they have time to do the instance now, and (v) if they willing to to do the instance and are not involved in something else. That's a lot of "ifs". Way too many, in fact.

My concern about ArenaNet's decision to drop the heroes/henches is that, unless they figure out another way for solo players to run GW2's instances, I'll see that same sucky WoW-ish dynamic all over again.

bhavv · Dec 09, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I simply dont and will not ever play any game that requires / forces grouping. I havnt played WoW, and wont ever do so, but I did try D+D online and quit after my forst month. D+D online was dead when I played it, with only a few hundred players on at a time at the most. What did they do to try and resolve this?

Update 10010101 - Added xxxx Solo dungeons for levels xxxx. Zing!

The game I believe is still dead however, they simply do not add enough new content, and it is far too small for a game with a monthly fee.

If GW lost its soloability, it would lose around two thirds of its player base at the same time. That isnt something Anet can afford to do and they know that well enough.

CHannum · Dec 09, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

In WoW, in other words, much of the game is reserved exclusively for player groups. That's how it is in most MMOs I have tried. As if completing the dungeon wasn't hard enough and time-consuming enough, you also have to spend a godawful amount of time finding other people to group with. This kind of mandatory grouping sucked the fun right out of WoW for me. Yes, you can level up to 70 and do other things, but, no, you CANNOT run the instances on your own and get the primo rewards.

This is precisely why I'm playing Guild Wars now and not WoW. As much as I loved the game, the fun factor hits a wall as you approach L50 based around not only on the notion of forced grouping, but also forced grouping with people who can devote more time than an old school PnP D&D campaign.

TheHaxor · Dec 10, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

In GW1, if no one is around or maybe you just feel like soloing (which I do, most of the time

), you have no problem finding what you need and you just go.

I have no problem with going solo when you need to. In fact I do it all the time. I just feel that if you are able to pug something, then you should give your services to those who are less experienced at whatever it is you are planning to do.

I just feel that solo play is too easy to do, thus a lot of the experienced people go that route instead of pugging. I think that is very unfortunate for newer players.