Curse

snikerz · Dec 01, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

yet another UB thread by the same crowd

i'm gonna keep saying this, UB is intended the way it is, its the consumables giving it its power

without even watching that video i'm going to assume they have consumables up, and i'm going to assume most people run consumables in high end areas.

when you run a set of EOTN consumables this is what you get:
+100 health
+10 energy
+10 armor
+1 attribute
+1 health regeneration
-5 dmg reduction
immunity to critical hits (the biggest bonus of all)
attack and move 25% faster
reduce and recharge skills 25% faster (where ursans power comes from)
+10 morale with increase health and energy

then you add cupcakes, pumpkin pies etc:
+100 health
+100 health
+100 health
+10 energy
25% reduce skill activation(yes it does stack with celerity)

its easy to get confused that UB is powerful, in reality its not, try running it without consumables, it will feel slow and compairable to say a SF nuker or other pve-only skills.

ontopic:
there are some other pve-only skills that need buffs like "winds"

Lagg · Dec 01, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

+100 health
+10 energy
+10 armor
+1 attribute
+1 health regeneration
-5 dmg reduction
immunity to critical hits (the biggest bonus of all)
attack and move 25% faster
reduce and recharge skills 25% faster (where ursans power comes from)
+10 morale with increase health and energy
+100 health
+100 health
+100 health
+10 energy
25% reduce skill activation(yes it does stack with celerity)

Exactly, since we already have all those, do we really need UB on top of that?

But I really don't want this to turn into another "nerf UB" thread.

All I'm trying to propose is an alternative that would keep people using UB happy, all the while giving people who still wish to experiment with new builds the clearness of mind that we're being rewarded for "creativity" rather than simply turning into a bear and killing everything.

But in the end: meh. It doesn't even turn you into a bear.

Darmikau · Dec 01, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

But in the end: meh. It doesn't even turn you into a bear.

Exactly. I cried when I realized I wouldn't be able to turn into a wolf. Shame on Anet.

The Meth · Dec 01, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

yet another UB thread by the same crowd

i'm gonna keep saying this, UB is intended the way it is, its the consumables giving it its power

without even watching that video i'm going to assume they have consumables up, and i'm going to assume most people run consumables in high end areas.

when you run a set of EOTN consumables this is what you get:
+100 health
+10 energy
+10 armor
+1 attribute
+1 health regeneration
-5 dmg reduction
immunity to critical hits (the biggest bonus of all)
attack and move 25% faster
reduce and recharge skills 25% faster (where ursans power comes from)
+10 morale with increase health and energy

then you add cupcakes, pumpkin pies etc:
+100 health
+100 health
+100 health
+10 energy
25% reduce skill activation(yes it does stack with celerity)

its easy to get confused that UB is powerful, in reality its not, try running it without consumables, it will feel slow and compairable to say a SF nuker or other pve-only skills.

ontopic:
there are some other pve-only skills that need buffs like "winds"

Consumables are completely unneeded, ursan works fine with a single + recharge which can easily be provided through skills. The reason people use consumables for it is the same reason they use ursan in the first place: too lazy to think up a real method to do it and taking the easy way out. You should watch the video though, its good for a laugh.

Toxage · Dec 01, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

[LIST]"There's Nothing to Fear!" For 20 seconds, all Party Members within earshot take 25...50% less damage. Affected Party Members are healed for 50...100 Health when this Shout ends. (90% chance to fail with 4 Leadership or less) [15 En, no Cast, 20 Rech]

Umm... what lol

Paragons are already imbalanced as it is... stop being so stupid..

There's nothing to fear
they're on fire
save yourselves
focused anger....

TA DA! Paragon = Invincibility

Interesting how Paragons can provide 70% reduction to the whole party with no consumables and this is BALANCED but yet some people use ursan blessing with CONSUMABLES and it is imbalanced? LOL at your logic

Avarre · Dec 01, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

i'm gonna keep saying this, UB is intended the way it is, its the consumables giving it its power

Dervish Mysticism worked as intended when introduced. The problem is that there is no definite correlation between 'Anet's intention' and 'quality game balance'.

I still believe removing all items and skills that have PvE-only restrictions, and properly designing PvE, would be the best solution.

MisterB · Dec 01, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I still believe removing all items and skills that have PvE-only restrictions, and properly designing PvE, would be the best solution.

That would be ideal. I hope they are working on this for GW2, but I think it is too late for GW with all the PvE-only stuff around. Considering all the whinging and moaning about the effect on PvE when skills are balanced for PvP, I can only imagine the outcry if all the PvE-only items/skills were removed.

HawkofStorms · Dec 01, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dervish Mysticism worked as intended when introduced. The problem is that there is no definite correlation between 'Anet's intention' and 'quality game balance'.

I still believe removing all items and skills that have PvE-only restrictions, and properly designing PvE, would be the best solution.

Oh yeah... Mysticism is a great example of something that got nerfed because it was overpowerd. Freaking 50 health heals every time an enchantment ended on you. Gah... so invincible during that NF preview event with 8 man dervish teams owning in HA.

Shadowfox1125 · Dec 01, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

Umm... what lol

Paragons are already imbalanced as it is... stop being so stupid..

There's nothing to fear
they're on fire
save yourselves
focused anger....

TA DA! Paragon = Invincibility

Interesting how Paragons can provide 70% reduction to the whole party with no consumables and this is BALANCED but yet some people use ursan blessing with CONSUMABLES and it is imbalanced? LOL at your logic

This is so true, although a large majority of PvE players laugh when I say that Paragons are overpowered.

But please, buff the Lux/Kurz skills.

Double the time for SY.

gg-gl-hf · Dec 01, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

All those ridiculously overpowered PVE-only skills have been a step in the wrong direction from the very beginning. IMHO they should all be removed.

cellardweller · Dec 01, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

The place of PvE only skills should be to fill a niche that while not strictly superior to non-PvE skills, would be overpowered when placed in a PvP context.

An example of a well designed PvE skill is Eternal Aura. In a long running PvP battle, the downtime of an avatar serves the purpose of restricting the duration for which a dervish can pressure an opposing team before giving them a break. In PvE however, this downtime doesn't affect a dervishes power at all as the dervish is able to wait out the downtime between groups. Eternal Aura fills the role of making PvE exploring smoother for an avatar dervish without increasing their overall power level.

By contrast skills like Save Yourselves, There's nothing to fear, cry of pain and ursan blessing (amongst many others) do nothing except provide strictly superior skills that lead to unchallenging pve and destruction of the skill>time precept. The correct solution to the bad pve skills is not to bring the others up to their level, but to reign them in so that they are on an equal footing with non-pve skills.

Vinraith · Dec 01, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

That would be ideal. I hope they are working on this for GW2, but I think it is too late for GW with all the PvE-only stuff around.

My sense is that they're going exactly the opposite way with GW2 (towards the traditional MMO model, which these certainly fit). I hope I'm wrong, though...

CyberNigma · Dec 01, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dervish Mysticism worked as intended when introduced. The problem is that there is no definite correlation between 'Anet's intention' and 'quality game balance'.

I still believe removing all items and skills that have PvE-only restrictions, and properly designing PvE, would be the best solution.

In other words, you want PvE to rely on PvP skill balances. The reason for PvE-only skills is so that most of them would be exempt from PvP skill-balances. Removing PvE-only skills is not the same as releasing PvE-only skills that are in-line with however they want to the PvE game to be played. If they think UB is overpowered then they can modfiy it. The chances of PVE-only skills requiring a nerf are much lower than other skills requiring a pvp nerf.

You sound more like a PvP player that is upset PvE players have something you don't. There is absolutely NO reason to remove PvE-only skills, except spite. If they are 'unbalanced' they can be balanced just like any other skill.

jammerpa · Dec 01, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Even if UB and Ursanway is overpowered, you've got to look at the way it's effecting the PVE side of the game and then decide whether or not the skill should be nerfed.

Personally, I run with a regular Ursan group each weekend. We've accomplished the following:

UW Clearing
FoW Clearing
Full DoA Runs
Urgoz
Vanquishing

Everything I've listed above are very time consuming tasks. With Ursanway, we've been able to reduce the time it takes to complete these tasks. For example, we can do a 3 hour full DoA run (including Mallyx). As far as Fow, UW, Urgoz, and Vanquishing, these are things we are not doing over and over. Fow, UW clearing and Urgoz are something that we did for the HoM Statues, and Vanquishing was done for the title only.

Ursanway is not having a negative effect on the economy either. It has revived a dead DoA and has allowed many players to get gems and torment weapons that they otherwise would not have had an opportunity to get.

Ursanway has allowed PLAYERS, not PROFESSIONS to participate in elite areas of the game. Sins, Para's, Derv's, Ranger's, Mezzie's.... they all get in.

UB is just another skill out of 100's. If you choose not to use it, then equip some other elite on your skill bar.

aapo · Dec 01, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

What is this "balance" in PvE you're speaking of?

Antheus · Dec 01, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

All Anet did is give us the Funny skill and said HAVE FUN WITH IT.
and I have been LMAO ever since.

Ursan Blessing is PvE Touch Ranger. Literally.

Let's praise touch rangers as a fun PvP build, and glorify the PvP-ers that use it.

And yes, some people have been LFMAO over it, but quickly disappeared when NF was ZB was added.

Quote:

'm gonna keep saying this, UB is intended the way it is, its the consumables giving it its power

This is also very true. Without consumables, UB becomes quite a chore. The very least you need is essence. Other two help a bit as well.

SaucE · Dec 01, 2007, 11:15 AM // 11:15

You nerf UB and you will make the quests that require it quite hard.

Avarre · Dec 01, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

In other words, you want PvE to rely on PvP skill balances. The reason for PvE-only skills is so that most of them would be exempt from PvP skill-balances. Removing PvE-only skills is not the same as releasing PvE-only skills that are in-line with however they want to the PvE game to be played. If they think UB is overpowered then they can modfiy it. The chances of PVE-only skills requiring a nerf are much lower than other skills requiring a pvp nerf.

You sound more like a PvP player that is upset PvE players have something you don't. There is absolutely NO reason to remove PvE-only skills, except spite. If they are 'unbalanced' they can be balanced just like any other skill.

The only logic behind PvE-restricted skills is because they are better than the rest. If they were, they wouldn't need restrictions. This is the primary reason for making skills restricted - so that massively powerful one-dimensional skills can be introduced. If they were balanced, they would have no reason to be restricted at all - or to even exist separately.

If PvE was properly designed, with enemy groups that were designed around synergy rather than mass stats, then PvP balance would cease to be called such. It would simply become game balance, because the closer together the mechanics and group structure of PvE and PvP are, the less crossover effects of balances exist. Read that, and then read it again until you understand it. By introducing monster skills, area effects, PvE skills and so on, the game become split mechanically but still bound on levels which results in player dissatisfaction when skills are balanced. Either the game is completely split, or remains close together.

A purely PvE version of Guild Wars would be attractive to some people, but if I wanted a purely PvE game there are plenty of better options. Guild Wars' original appeal was in that it was a game built on skill, with both the PvE and PvP requiring group tactics, understanding, solid builds, and so on. There is not one PvE skill in this game that requires player skill for success. There is no understanding needed in a Paragon SY group. There is no need for a solid build when running Ursanway. By allowing these skills in the game, not only is the community split but one of the most unique factors of the game thrown away.

Turbobusa · Dec 01, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

glyph of renewal, Ether nightmare, aneurysm, ether nightmare, MOUHAHAHA

zwei2stein · Dec 01, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Buff Sunspear/Kurzick skills to compete with Ursan Blessing?

you got it wrong, it should be:

Overnerf Usran blessing and nerf Sunspear/Kurzick skills to compete with PvX skills.