Curse

Dr Strangelove · Nov 14, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Is anyone else concerned with the rapidity these changes have been implemented?

As in, we had a whole bunch of changes just last week: you'd think it'd be wise to spend more than a week evaluating the relative success of such changes before muddying the waters with yet another batch of changes, right?

I mean, if I'm running an experiment to discover the effects of varying the concentration of a drug on some laboratory mice, is it wise for me to suddenly add another drug halfway through the trial "so I can check that one, too"?

I worry. :$

No, but it's fun. Hell, I miss the old days where they'd change half the skills in the game every update.

SS89 · Nov 14, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

it seems to me like the more (dare i say it) wise/better gamers understand and appreciate the nerfs for what they do and why they are implemented, compared to the people who are completely one-sided anti-nerf.

Phaern Majes · Nov 14, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Aye I think nerfs are alright until PvP abuses something like EW and Anet decides to nerf it not once but twice in the same week. After the first nerf I could still solo trap UW. After this second one, I'm not so sure I want to even try 30ish seconds now? Just another case of PvP and PvE conflicting.

Aera Lure · Nov 14, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Humanity is doomed. Accept this. Accept that there is nothing you can do about it.
When you realise that everything that you'll ever manage to accomplish is nothing more than a mote of dust in the grand scheme of eternal failure, then you can learn to truly enjoy life.

This I accept as an axiom. Still doesnt change the fact that Anet's approach to balancing by identifying the current meta and simply nerfing several key components of it is actually not a good thing. Really, it just supports the aforementioned axiom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The IDEAL situation, is that overly powerful skills become adjusted, so that its in line with the rest of the skill lines, and theres many alternative skills and players have a huge variety to choose from. But i really doubt thats gonna happen.

We wont ever see actual balancing. I've let go of that. Would be nice though to look at an attribute line and have more than a couple viable elites. Current philosophy just promotes the rise to the fore of a new set of skills primed for the nerf bat. I'd much rather see more variety encouraged than simply whacking a few more skills/builds out of the mix.

Marth Reynolds · Nov 14, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The IDEAL situation, is that overly powerful skills become adjusted, so that its in line with the rest of the skill lines, and theres many alternative skills and players have a huge variety to choose from. But i really doubt thats gonna happen.

Quoted for Truth

There are to many skills that pale to others, and wich are in need of serious buffing..

some nerfs can be good imo, but others just make no sense or are a poor implementation to fix a problem

a-net needs to put more tought on the balances, wich clearly izzy cannot achieve

Winterclaw · Nov 14, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Since NF there have been enough underpowered skills leftover from proph/factions they really should be focused on giving those a little more impact first. How many skills aren't being used because they are junk compared to what else is out there.

Cloud5646 · Nov 14, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Shadow Prison is not the only build that uses those skills, they messed up alot of builds that weren't OP as well... that sucks.
Why not to just nerf tiger's stance ffs........

Ctb · Nov 14, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

my message to A-net: Leave my game alone.

My message to you: It's not "your game".

If you want to be able to control every facet of the game, stop playing online games.

Quote:

I need to learn to derive amusement, rather than a catastrophically depressed outlook on the future of humanity, from all the bratty whining that goes on on internet gaming boards. Any tips?

I can't imagine what happens when you visit a news site and see what's happening in the real world if something so minor as video game nerds complaining depresses you. o_0

Ravi · Nov 14, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

i find it amusing how yanman declares himself the best assasin.

BlackSephir · Nov 14, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

How many skills aren't being used because they are junk compared to what else is out there.

Too many. Changing junk skills to a-ok skills would certainly create some diversity and originality... But how many times have people said "do something with [insert skill like Wastrel's Collapse here] because it's useless" and AN did nothing?

Shuuda · Nov 14, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karia Mirniman

me:

my message to A-net: Leave my game alone.

Lol at the selfishness. Last time I checked, it's OUR game.

GD Defender · Nov 14, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

I'll keep it short.

Nerfs are good.

Nerfs are good, nerfs without compensation are not. The LoD nerf was a good nerf; it was ruling 8-man PvP and Izzy compensated for its loss.

It's hard enough already for sins to do their job (which is to consistently kill other players), and now they're pretty much terrible at it because there were no buffs to compensate the destruction of basically all hex builds and then some.
To be honest, the concept of devoting a character slot to consistently kill other players is broken. For them to be useful, the recharge on their spike has to be relatively low, and their damage has to be enough to consistently kill or severely weaken enough for the target to die soon after due to pressure or degen.
In essence, their balance between effective and overpowered is a very very fine line. When they get a good build, players who don't understand that just cry about it until it gets nerfed. It's an endless cycle that I don't see ending unless Assassins are significantly changed or removed in GW2. :l

A shame, because they could be a very skillbased class if Izzy fixed it right. I'm not even sure he knows how to nerf SP, he might be just punching skills on the bar until people stop using it.

Glider of chaos · Nov 14, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

Mr Nerf is never seen without Mrs Buff

I suggest you have a look at the current assassin nerf. You'll be surprised but there's not a single buff floating around here...

Martin Alvito · Nov 14, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

I'll keep it short.

Nerfs are good.

They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad?

It isn't. However, nerfs should be as incremental as possible, and it doesn't generally happen that way.

It's fine to kill things dead that are overpowered to the point of being broken. Fast Cast Air Spike broke Air Magic in that it put out more spike damage than heals could eventually keep up with; it needed to be killed, and the dev team did just that by restructuring Elemental Attunement such that the build no longer worked. Similar situation with Blinding Surge Mesmers; upping the casting cost of Blinding Surge to 10 instantly made them no longer viable, but that was fine since a Mesmer shouldn't be that efficient at Warrior hate and still able to do all the other things a Mesmer can do.

However, not all things that are overpowered are game-breaking, and one simply cannot nerf overpowered skills in the same manner as one nerfs broken ones. A harsh nerf is appropriate on a broken skill in order to ensure that the nerf works; on a skill that is widely used because it is too efficient, all one needs to do in order to fix it is strip the skill of some of its efficiency, while permitting the skill to do the same job it did previously (just not as well).

The Eviscerate nerf (7 adren to 8) is an excellent example of how to nerf overpowered skills. Eviscerate gets used because it's an extremely efficient way of solving a problem (spike damage); by increasing the adrenaline needed to use it, ANet simply decreased its damage over time and thus its efficiency.

This is how you should nerf, except in the most extreme cases.

Izzy violated the above principles in the last week on several levels. A Monk elite with a two second casting time had better resurrect a player permanently or be in the Smiting Prayers line (EDIT: or be a maintained enchant); it's the only way such a cast time on a Monk elite can be justified.

The Black Lotus Strike nerf is ridiculous; if the problem is that the two-offhand, two-dual mechanic is overpowered, why wasn't it overpowered in the Factions meta? Fix the real problem, which is the recharge times on the Hex chains and their synergy with cheap hexes such as Siphon Speed that enable the frequent spikes. Put another way, the problem isn't the ability of the sins to put out these spikes - it's the FREQUENCY with which they can do so coupled with the level of damage such spikes put out. Cut the number of times the sin can spike per minute or cut the damage spike such that the sin needs assistance from another player to kill, and you solve the problem without invalidating the skill or removing the build from the meta entirely.

The Impale nerf is silly; it doesn't address the real problem, which is landing 160-180 damage on the back end of a typical huge damage Assassin chain.

Cutting the damage on Horns and Trampling is more in line with what I would prefer to see, but there were better ways. Fewer spikes per minute would cut the overall threat potential rather than cutting the spike potential.

If the objective is "maximize build diversity", this isn't how you do it. All this sort of nerf does is virtually ensure that some new unbalanced build will emerge and define the environment around it. This isn't what most players want; they'd prefer to see older builds remain viable, but see their power equated such that new builds also emerge to challenge the old ones and possibly force some of them into disuse.

Nerfing too hard replaces natural evolution processes with drastic upheavals; in the case of drastic upheavals, you're likely to see the simplest and most boring builds (zergway, spikes) come out of the woodwork first, which isn't a good thing either.

Ebony Shadowheart · Nov 14, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Nerfing, like most things, has it place. I agree with the OP that it does keep things interesting. I understand that most skill changes are done with pvp in mind, and as a pve-er I'm ok with this. (Holler all you want, it aint gonna change my thoughts). Sometimes it pisses me off and sometimes I don't agree. I'll admit that there have been times I've even whined about it because I was really enjoying my build. However, I also realize that without change (sometimes forced through nerfs) the game becomes stagnant. It's no longer about skill at that point, its one gimmick against another and thats just not fun. Quite frankly its boring, even from an observer's point of view. (I know watching the same LoD infuse build in 90% of battles put me to sleep on more than on occassion). I think things needed a good shaking up.

I also agree with people stating that things need to be balanced, and sometimes reducing things is the way to do that, sometimes buffing other things works just as well; however, you have to keep in mind that although the people that change the skills play the game and listen to our suggestions, they aren't gods. They aren't going to get the changes right the first time, possibly not even the second (and maybe even never). It requires you to adapt, and give them feedback they can use to help them get it right. Of course, you also have to keep in mind, in the end its their call as to final skill stats, not yours. That's what they're paid for. Be happy that they allow you to present feedback and even take some of it into consideration before finalizing changes.

Painbringer · Nov 14, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

/ agree

Honestly if they didn’t stir the pot now and then it would get stagnate. If it was that bad of a nerf I just move to a different class for awhile Or Pull up Wiki and start brain storming

Rocky Raccoon · Nov 14, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

In that case, I'm not talking about you. I know there are also many people who DO understand reason, and that there are quite a lot intelligent PvErs. However, you'll have to agree with me, in general, PvErs don't adapt and whine about everything.

You shouldn't generalize all pve players as whiners and non adapters. I am sure some would say the same about pvp players. Some people just get too set in the way they play and if it changes they just whine instead of trying to come up with a new better build. The vast majority of gw players don't even read or post to any forums, so we who do are the most vocal only and do not represent all gw players. Change is good, it makes you rethink how to play the game.

Snow Bunny · Nov 14, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

I'll keep it short.

Nerfs are good.

They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad?
I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so.
They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad?

Flame me.

Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again.

Can I devote my life to you?

You just made my day with the OP.

HawkofStorms · Nov 14, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud5646

Why not to just nerf tiger's stance ffs........

They already did. TS used to last like twice as long on sins and was used non stop in HA. Since it was nerfed, nobody seriously used it anymore.

~ Dan ~ · Nov 14, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

They already did. TS used to last like twice as long on sins and was used non stop in HA. Since it was nerfed, nobody seriously used it anymore.

And then if TS is nerfed like BoA, it'll just be flurry / frenzy. IAS is not the problem (i wasn't aiming this at you, only quoting and expanding).