Curse

pumpkin pie · Dec 21, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

that is why it is not a good idea to post before a contest, which, in my opinion is not true at all, because IT IS GOOD to post your idea first before the contest ends, one should always lay a claim to what they do and fast (thats why people get rich with patented stuffs)

post date will sort of become the proof that you have and finished presenting your idea first, whoever post later will have to come up quick with something else, making the contest more competitive and have more different non-clashing entries. sort of, unless someone evil copy it and claim they never seen anything on here before, but then, there's always your entrant's date to proof. However, this is just my observation and opinion, does not reflect any one else's or try to under mind any third party et cetera. Just my "evil suspecting mind" working because I couldn't understand why it is not a good idea to post your entry before the contest ends.

BenjZee · Dec 21, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by baggy

I never claimed to be an artist, but this was my submission:

omg check back to my drawings. same hat basically

pamelf · Dec 21, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Victory should have gone to No. 6.

Nian · Dec 21, 2007, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Hi Nian,

first of all, congratulations for the win. I've always found your work most admirable, especially the style and use of color.

I'm only a part time artist and not very prolific even at that. I used to have comics online 10 years ago when the web was still in its infancy but right now the only thing that I can show is some commissioned GW character art (I bet that you know the recipients) void of any artistic qualities and reflecting the stylistic preferences of the clients rather than mine.

But I'm also honest enough to admit that I still feel a bit sullen about Gaile saying that it's all about the idea, and when two people come up with essentially the same idea, it's on one hand good enough to win the entire competition and on another not good enough to even get a honorable mention

(That's of course not your fault

I just hope that the devs haven't bastardized the concept beyond recognition)

Thanks! The paragon artwork I had seen before, it has a great perspective and mood, but the dervish in the yellow vabbian is a new treat. Wish you had more art around to oogle at. I like your style.

I decided not to make much noise about myself but oh heck. My thoughts on creating the hat were along the lines of what I would have wanted to see ingame myself(not another set of horns tbh) and I really wanted a neat crown to wear. I didn't want to get stuck on details and limits so I just had fun with it. I wanted the hat to be tied to the lore and got the image of Desmina in my mind. Initially I wanted to picture Desmina in rags wearing the crown looking up at Grenth and the earth split open between her feet but as you can see it never got that far(maybe that would have gone too far anyway). I'm sure the talented Anet staff are more than capable of realizing a concept. I'm a big fan.

I'm sure there were plenty of similiar hats in the contest. Most people will think about icy crowns for wintersday, different types of Grenth horns, Christmas themed decorations and hoods because of the Grenth avatar etc. Just seeing the entries here in the forums shows that. I'd like to think they are all still unique in a sense of concept, presentation and idea even if they spawn from the same theme. They're still made by different people and everyone has their own handiwork style.

Theo Godscythe · Dec 21, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

They'll choose the hat for Grenth the Dawyna hat will be whatever they wish. Personnaly the Grenth Hood thing looks awesome.

Hengis · Dec 21, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

My personal favourite was ths Snow Globe.

Would probably be very very hard to make that work though, but the idea is superb!

The Ice Crown was very nicely drawn, but not in my opinion as original an idea as some of the others, so there may have been some kind of balance made between what was the best idea and what was achievable with the graphics and game engine. Congratulations on the win though :-)

I must say though that I still have huge respect for all the people who enter these competitions as I have no artistic artistic ability whatsoever!

There really are some very talented Guild Wars players.

Darksun · Dec 21, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

The website run and owned by my wife and me:

www.coldsnapstudio.com

Say that again?

Sorry, but when a company has in-house people doing THIS. They don't need our stuff. And they certainly aren't going to pay for any of my junk unless I'm contracted.
And yet you are still saying that ANET needs to steal our art? Something isn't clicking here.

Mr. G · Dec 21, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

The website run and owned by my wife and me:

www.coldsnapstudio.com

Say that again?

I might just be an average joe...but tbh i wasn't impressed, ive been much better from the hobby artists in NAoA

WinterSnowblind · Dec 21, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

The website run and owned by my wife and me:

www.coldsnapstudio.com

Say that again?

I know it's been said before, but I feel it should be said again for further clarity.
You've seen the type of artwork the Guild Wars guys produce?

And you've seen yours, which looks like a sub-par children's book, similar to the quality you'd see on a 14 year olds Deviant Art page.

Darksun · Dec 21, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I don't think his point was to say that his work is better, but that he understands the illustration industry. (which I still can't reconcile with his statements about the contest)

freaky naughty · Dec 21, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

#5 was the best by far imo.

GhostRaptor · Dec 22, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I think what my criticism (it's a very minor criticism since I DO like that hat) is based on is that even though Grenth is the god of Ice, just linking a hat to the Ice theme doesnt automatically link it to Grenth since this IS a Wintersday theme, whether it's Dwayna or Grenth. Both would be icy in some way yes? Look at Dwayna's snowman cap from last year. And there's really no other link to Grenth in the winning hat entry other than ice. Anyway, I'm not bashing it. It just feels and looks more Dwayna to me and the other entries felt more "Grenth."

I think it fits. The overall theme of Wintersday is the contest between Grenth and Dwayna. Grenth wants permanent winter, while Dwayna wishes to bring on the spring. With that in mind, while it the wintersday theme is ice I think of Dwayna as more renewal of life and the melting of the ice to reveal new growth, while Grenth is the maintenance of ice and the death it implies.

A11Eur0 · Dec 22, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinterSnowblind

I know it's been said before, but I feel it should be said again for further clarity.
You've seen the type of artwork the Guild Wars guys produce?

And you've seen yours, which looks like a sub-par children's book, similar to the quality you'd see on a 14 year olds Deviant Art page.

It's not my work, it's my wife's. I'm not comparing it to GW's stuff, I'm using it as an example that I do know how the illustration market works. Yay for reading comprehension.

And quite frankly, this idea that they have in-house people doing stuff and it would cost less to do that...I don't really believe it. That's time spent by amateurs that gives the artists the ideas that they'd be charging alot more to think up themselves....all they need to do now is take these concepts, knock out a quick series of sketches for the computer guys to code into the game, and voila! The design and concept phase is one of the more costly, in time and dollars, phases of creating a visual product.

Darksun · Dec 22, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

And quite frankly, this idea that they have in-house people doing stuff and it would cost less to do that...I don't really believe it.

You really think the time & money it costs to:

write up the rules, get them approved by the legal team, which HAS to set up the parameters for any contest, never mind a world wide one including different countries & rules (ie: all the complaints you get about this country can't enter this one can, this one has to take a test, these don't)
gather the creative staff and waste the time (which they could "knock out a quick series of sketches for the computer guys to code into the game" in) to judge thousands of entries & then vote on them
set up a webpage for the contest
get a sponsor to donate/buy prizes from (never mind the legal nitpicking for how that company has to be presented/promoted on the site)
gather addresses & character names so that people/characters/addresses & prizes can be orginized (Gaile pointed out before the requirement of having a specific person to fill the job of entering this data from emails/jpgs to the database for minipet codes)
package & mail the gifts to the winners
re-design the winning entry to be viable in-game

...Is easier than telling a guy who works at ANET & knows GW backward & forward (who, by the way made the hats for the past 2 years just fine) to "make a Grenth & Dwayna Hat"? Now I know you don't know what you're talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.

A11Eur0 · Dec 22, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

You're putting a whole bunch of crap they already have written up and completed as template into the mix and making a mountain out of a molehill.

The lawyers are either in-house or on retainer. They're ALREADY PAID for what they're doing, regardless. The website...oh noes. template format and enter text/html. I can do that in 10 minutes. creative staff....put submissions into a folder. browse through the folder at warp speed looking for high-quality work, filter out the chicken scratch. Go through this MUCH smaller pile and pick out decent ideas that noone DOESN'T like. Then spend about 10 minutes voting on the top 5. one person can do this actually.

The "prizes" are cheap, they were already in production, and shipping for a company like that is pennies.

All this stuff is worked up before the contest is even thought of...it's part of the business. You're thinking like an individual doing a giveaway at the local supermarket, not a business which has been doing this for a while.

If you think they would operate at a loss, you're a fool. Everything they do is for profit...period. Don't listen to the talking head PR person coming on here to pour honey in your ear. Everyone working on this "giveaway" is an already paid employee, dealing with public relations and charged with keeping current players interested, as well as getting new players. THIS ALONE makes up for any "added cost" of delegating duties away from "normal schedule"...although this IS their normal schedule. These people are already there and already being paid for their time. The "cost" of the prizes is considered an expense. Higher expenses isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when the total cost of these added expenses is a very small fraction of the company's quarterly earnings.

Sister Rosette · Dec 22, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

You're putting a whole bunch of crap they already have written up and completed as template into the mix and making a mountain out of a molehill.

The lawyers are either in-house or on retainer. They're ALREADY PAID for what they're doing, regardless. The website...oh noes. template format and enter text/html. I can do that in 10 minutes. creative staff....put submissions into a folder. browse through the folder at warp speed looking for high-quality work, filter out the chicken scratch. Go through this MUCH smaller pile and pick out decent ideas that noone DOESN'T like. Then spend about 10 minutes voting on the top 5. one person can do this actually.

The "prizes" are cheap, they were already in production, and shipping for a company like that is pennies.

All this stuff is worked up before the contest is even thought of...it's part of the business. You're thinking like an individual doing a giveaway at the local supermarket, not a business which has been doing this for a while.

If you think they would operate at a loss, you're a fool. Everything they do is for profit...period. Don't listen to the talking head PR person coming on here to pour honey in your ear. Everyone working on this "giveaway" is an already paid employee, dealing with public relations and charged with keeping current players interested, as well as getting new players. THIS ALONE makes up for any "added cost" of delegating duties away from "normal schedule"...although this IS their normal schedule. These people are already there and already being paid for their time.

No, instead listen to a fellow small-time artist try and come across like his ass is bulletproof. Look, I'm nowhere near the skill level of the talented men and women on Anet's payroll. And neither are you, so playing yourself off as King Swaggercock by touting the website you and your wife made makes me wish I had a key or a menu function that could cause you physical pain. You're a working artist, in Alaska of all places, but that's no waiver for your excessive dickery here.

In conclusion, you're small-time, I'm small-time, we're all small time. Get off your damn pedestal already. Be happy for people who are enthusiastic enough about the game to offer up their hard work for little or no compensation for the chance to see hundreds of people wearing it in-game. And if you can't be happy, then shut up. And take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

Darksun · Dec 22, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

It's all stuff that doesn't have to happen if you just make your own designs. Even if it's just signing off on papers that are made for running contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

The lawyers are either in-house or on retainer. They're ALREADY PAID for what they're doing, regardless.

oh I see.. so the artists who are in-house and are ALREADY PAID for what they're doing, regardless are different? Hmm..

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

The website...oh noes. template format and enter text/html. I can do that in 10 minutes.

Yup, and it doesn't have to be done if there is no contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

creative staff....put submissions into a folder. browse through the folder at warp speed looking for high-quality work, filter out the chicken scratch. Go through this MUCH smaller pile and pick out decent ideas that noone DOESN'T like.

Like the beaver? Yeah....

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Then spend about 10 minutes voting on the top 5. one person can do this actually.

They've stated before that multiple people do this. But I'm sure it's a PR phantom, like the one that's spending the time to sign the more than 1000 Christmas cards they send out this year just for fun. Oh and that copy of Guild Wars in my Room that has about 30 sigs on it was done by a bum they found on the street. it's all a conspiracy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

The "prizes" are cheap, they were already in production, and shipping for a company like that is pennies.

And here I thought you knew something. If you'd actually ever been in a position where you have to use co. logos in design & adverts you'd know the hassle they can be. Even if everything goes smoothly there are rules to follow. And setting up sponsors is never simple, especially when the alternative is HAVING THE ARTIST DO WHAT THEY ARE PAID FOR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

All this stuff is worked up before the contest is even thought of...it's part of the business. You're thinking like an individual doing a giveaway at the local supermarket, not a business which has been doing this for a while.

See, your assumption is that contests are bad for business. I realize they are damn good for business. They cost more than not having them, but they draw in the players and are as fun as the game itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

If you think they would operate at a loss, you're a fool. Everything they do is for profit...period. Don't listen to the talking head PR person coming on here to pour honey in your ear.

(fyi, MS isn't making a profit off xbox consoles.. it's running at a loss to make $$ off games & licensing) Being foolish is coming up with conspiracy theories & simplistic business structures. Where everything is magically set up for free and the only thing that really costs money is art from billionaire concept artists who are all freelance.
I realize that the extra time & money they put into contests like this & things like sending 1300 signed Christmas cards help them more than having free amateur art ever would. There is nothing revolutionary about a snow-globe head. It's been suggested on the forums before this Winters day, it's not like they couldn't figure it out, but it's fun and it gets the players involved @ hooked.

A11Eur0 · Dec 22, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

No, instead listen to a fellow small-time artist try and come across like his ass is bulletproof. Look, I'm nowhere near the skill level of the talented men and women on Anet's payroll. And neither are you, so playing yourself off as King Swaggercock by touting the website you and your wife made makes me wish I had a key or a menu function that could cause you physical pain. You're a working artist, in Alaska of all places, but that's no waiver for your excessive dickery here.

In conclusion, you're small-time, I'm small-time, we're all small time. Get off your damn pedestal already. Be happy for people who are enthusiastic enough about the game to offer up their hard work for little or no compensation for the chance to see hundreds of people wearing it in-game. And if you can't be happy, then shut up. And take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

How about you learn to participate in a discussion without resorting to petty insults.

Small time, maybe. Professional, yes. It shows that i understand the value of intellectual property. There's a lot of further copyright issues here that I haven't discussed as well.

Whatever. If you feel that having the piece in a game for thousands, millions to see is compensation enough, that's fine. I have no grief with aspiring artists wanting to see their stuff in such a public setting. The grief I have is with a company which feeds on unknowing aspiring artists with the talent to make it big in the market just to make a few bucks.

darksun...I'm not even going to respond with too many specifics, it's obvious you're going to argue regardless of what I say. All I can say is you're a damn fool if you think this "extra work" is actually costing a company with salaried employees anything more. Here's a thought: in-house artists. They get paid regardless right? You think Anet is going to have them sitting around while reviewing these fan-submitted concepts? No...the time "saved" on that is spent on further concepts. The submittals are counted as ASSETS to the company. They acquire ownership of these concepts through the contest rules, which are a contract. These assets can be used indefinitely and without restriction by Anet...the artist has no right or say-so about what Anet does with them. This is an extremely valuable asset in a visual art business. You should learn something about business.

I'll say it again: if the fans submitting this art are okay with not being compensated according to widely accepted values and pricing guidelines for artistic intellectual property, just because they're seeing their art in the game (although aside from a username and forum handle, noone knows who actually designed it, and even fewer actually care), that's fine. I'm merely putting out my views for them to read and absorb if they so choose. If I get even one aspiring talented artist to see what he's sacrificing just for the chance at a keyboard and minipet, so he does not continue to fund cheap businesses looking to take advantage of amateur artists, then I will consider my mission accomplished.

Sister Rosette · Dec 22, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

And you know, it's funny. I went through all the previous contest pages, including this one, and it makes no mention of cash rewards. Ever! So it's not like Anet is leading innocent artists in with false promises or claims, people are doing it with the knowledge that they will not be paid for their work! Isn't that crazy?

Yeah, they give up the intellectual properties of whatever they turn in, but imaginations are funny things. They can make new ideas after the fact. Just because someone gives up the rights of one idea from their head doesn't mean they're perpetually jaded and they're never gonna be good again and their artistry career is over. Far from it, because while they give up the rights to publish their work, they gain something else: credibility. It shows major designing firms that they have put the time and effort forth to have something accepted and used by major companies.

In conclusion, your "mission" is a joke, your views are ridiculously skewed, completely ignorant, and downright paranoid. Just because no company is clamoring for the rights to "My Little Ladybug" don't go taking it out on others.

Saraphim · Dec 22, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I've got my head in my hands here.

Don't know whether I should even join in but what the hey, why not.

I'm only going to follow up on one thing though, as I can actually comment on it with some relevance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

And quite frankly, this idea that they have in-house people doing stuff and it would cost less to do that...I don't really believe it. That's time spent by amateurs that gives the artists the ideas that they'd be charging alot more to think up themselves....all they need to do now is take these concepts, knock out a quick series of sketches for the computer guys to code into the game, and voila! The design and concept phase is one of the more costly, in time and dollars, phases of creating a visual product.

I disagree. As a general rule of thumb (in the UK at least) the design and concept phase of games development is not the most costly. Why? Because of a number of things:

Concept artists are not the highest paid members of the team, in fact for a long time working in that position I was not paid much more than the QA testers. In a company like Arena.net this may not be the case, they have an enormously talented creative team and hopefully are paid their value.

2D is less costly than 3D, and when you factor in a large team all needing software licenses that's a lot of cash. A single Maya license costs $6,995.00 (from the Autodesk site, bulk purchase may be cheaper), a single Photoshop license: $999. Pencil and paper.... well let's say significantly less shall we?

Multiply the above by the size of the dev team and that's a lot of cash. Pre-production is never going to cost more than production, if it did then no games or films would ever get made as no investor would throw all their cash at the beginning of the process. Which is why some games fall at the 'vertical slice' stage because backers don't have confidence in the pre-production results and aren't prepared to finance the production milestones. So they cut their losses and can it before it gets too bloated.

Going back to the above quote:

Quote:

all they need to do now is take these concepts, knock out a quick series of sketches for the computer guys to code into the game

Erm.. no. A quick series of sketches does not get coded into the game, it has to be modelled, textured, exported, tested, the first three will be done by the 3D artist, then coded.

I could go on a lot further, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot of point. I don't see anything in this thread that convinces me you know a great deal about games development. Being a freelance cartoonist / artist does not necessarily mean that one has a firm grasp of how much work, or how much it costs in real terms to output game assets in a dev studio the size of Arena.net

Plus to be honest, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion and there's no need to be so aggressive about it. It's a simple fan art contest, they're not running an advertising campaign driven from 'spec work' that some poor freelancer spent days on. They gain nothing from this in terms of sales - would you buy a game based on a free hat some player drew? And I mean no offense to the contestants here, all the designs were great. So the only quibble you have is IP, and seriously.. the IP value of a Wintersday hat would be laughably small, and for the record when you work freelance for a games company you give away your IP as soon as the invoice is paid, and it aint that frickin' much.

If you think I'm blowing this out of my ass, feel free to go to my website. The link's in the dropdown under my name.