Curse

Zeek Aran · Jan 04, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Another bot thread, we've had plenty where people just brain storm. Bots are still here, and players are still pissed because of things bots have caused to occur. Can we close this?

prism2525 · Jan 04, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Where did you get that? If the text is displayed in the client, it's transmitted over the wire to the computer so the bot can read it.

That's why I said "as far as i know". I don't know for sure

Lord Darksoul · Jan 04, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

As many ideas are there, ANet is busy with GW2. I doubt ANet will spend the effort to go stopping bots on the old game, but rather start being proactive about it for their next release. Maybe when fewer things are instanced, it would be easier for gamers to see bots and report them.

Fril Estelin · Jan 04, 2008, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeek Aran

Another bot thread, we've had plenty where people just brain storm. Bots are still here, and players are still pissed because of things bots have caused to occur. Can we close this?

Though you're right that there's no easy way to beat bots, especially when we don't know the specifics of Gw's servers, it's still fun. It's a bit like a sudoku where you learn stuff along the way from people (I believe that there are people much more knowledgeable than me on this forum, though they scarcely talk).

Anyway, if you understand GW's architecture, you understand the complexity of the problem. The nice functional design between client and server means that bot program cannot be spotted on the client and can attempt to escape the server surveillance, which corresponds to checking that the command sent by the client are not too "robotic" (which unfortunately can be avoided with random actions).

Putting a dummy monster in the middle of the pack will not change much, bot programs will just walk around, but it may be able to slow them down. But the design of this solution would be too awkward to most players.

DarkFlame · Jan 05, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

A better idea would be to create more targetable sign posts in towns/outposts and then randomly move them around every so often. We've all seen how some bots already get stuck when players/other sign posts block their way. Bots can't farm if they can't leave town.

Zeek Aran · Jan 05, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFlame

A better idea would be to create more targetable sign posts in towns/outposts and then randomly move them around every so often. We've all seen how some bots already get stuck when players/other sign posts block their way. Bots can't farm if they can't leave town.

They will just be reprogrammed to not use the signs. Hay gaiz, srsly, you can't win.

/close generic bot thread

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFlame

A better idea would be to create more targetable sign posts in towns/outposts and then randomly move them around every so often. We've all seen how some bots already get stuck when players/other sign posts block their way. Bots can't farm if they can't leave town.

These signposts correspond to data stored on every GW.dat file on each client (our computers), so it would mean changing these files regularly only for that purpose. Too costly in terms of communication I'd say. Furthermore, it may be necessary to modifying the way the maps of all outposts are architected, which may even not be possible in GW1. May be in GW2?

MrSlayer · Jan 05, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

BRILLIANT IDEA!

We have Vanquished 99 Foes!

*checks wiki*

104 foes in the area. However, due to the worst update in all of creation, 5 of these foes are invincible.

Not to mention 'brb - gotta eat' and coming back 3 minutes later to find everything in your group has been killed by one un-killable enemy.

Nice try, but not very fitting in this type of game.

Chicken Ftw · Jan 05, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSlayer

Not to mention 'brb - gotta eat' and coming back 3 minutes later to find everything in your group has been killed by one un-killable enemy.

Quote:

don't attack you

Reading ftw?

But yeah, bad ideas all around. Especially pop-up prompts or anything of that nature that disturbs the players' gameplay.

6am3 Fana71c · Jan 05, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Great, another bot thread. Better close it before kitty pictures pop in...
* cough *

Zeek Aran · Jan 05, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

Great, another bot thread. Better close it before kitty pictures pop in...
* cough *

FeroxC · Jan 05, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Fril Esteln the GW architecture isn't just functional, it is also the securest way of doing things. The GW servers literally do every important calculation in the game ! Programmers know how to go about modifying game code as its being run in memory . If anything important like damage or health was calculated clientside the game would be hacked to peices.

Unfortunatly automation of valid input(bots) is an area game developers cant seem to conquer yet.

The GW design is naturally hostile to bots due to teamwork but anything random will drive bot creators mad.

Bot killer 1
A guaranteed way to keep the bots out would be: CAPTCHA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha shows you a random word which has been obscured by lines and asks you to enter it, you see this when signing up email accounts. This would only be effective if it randomly showed up during game play which is too much of an inconveniance

Bot killer 2
Randomly generated terrain such as damaged buildings, cracks in the land you have to walk around. These screw up the bots pathing unless they are using complicated algorithms, such as "shortest path" or A* which need detailed level data that they don't have, then again GW pathing practically does this for them.

This might stop the amatuers but the hardcore gold merchants might still pull off a bot that can handle it.

Bot killer 3
More popups - I know we hate them but but bots are dumb and if anything out of the ordinary happens such as a mesmers or skales pop up the bot is screwed. The effectiveness of this depends on how well Anet implements it.

So bots are beatable, it's just too impractical to do it

quickmonty · Jan 05, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Bot killer #4

FeroxC · Jan 05, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Looks pretty effective.

Yang Whirlwind · Jan 05, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

The solution would be for everybody to stop buying the gold off the bot-people! (sort of like the pod-people)
I'm doing my part! - Fixed!

xiaotsu · Jan 05, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Yang wins this thread, hands down.

Harrier's haste · Jan 05, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

lol but they still sell golds, don't they? A trip to GToB show ya how many ppl spams gold selling

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Fril Esteln the GW architecture isn't just functional, it is also the securest way of doing things. The GW servers literally do every important calculation in the game ! Programmers know how to go about modifying game code as its being run in memory . If anything important like damage or health was calculated clientside the game would be hacked to peices.

I know fully well, see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10234769.

Quote:

Unfortunatly automation of valid input(bots) is an area game developers cant seem to conquer yet.

Well, I suspect that Anet's doing it because they ban plenty of accounts. But it's an arms race at the moment as they probably have to update the catching code all the time, with each evolution of the bots code.

Quote:

So bots are beatable, it's just too impractical to do it

Indeed. Let's hope that they stay on top of the threat in GW1 and make it minimal in the design of GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Bot killer #4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

The solution would be for everybody to stop buying the gold off the bot-people! (sort of like the pod-people)
I'm doing my part! - Fixed!

If only it was this easy!

Roshi_ikkyu · Jan 05, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

All solutions mentioned fail because of a few details!

1) Bots can be told to do many amazing things.

2) Bots have really people watching overthem that could bypass any user required imput, Unless it is every 1-3 minutes its not going to stop bots, and if it is every 1-3 minutes it will piss off players really badly.

3) In some areas a company can make a profit by paying a person to run 3 or more accounts with the assistance of macros to farm money. Gold farming sweatshops.

Best solution is to not buy gold, banning accounts only plays into Anets hands. The farmers are forced to buy more accounts (And don't be retarded, they buy them in wholesale and get a major discount) and anet makes more money.

You only need a bot to farm for less then a week to make a profit off the purchase price.

The only sure fire way to stop bots is by shutting down GW.

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roshi_ikkyu

1) Bots can be told to do many amazing things.

Excellent point, that I would rephrase this way: bots can be as good as the GW program itself. They are both automated programs that exchange information with the GW client.

Quote:

2) Bots have really people watching overthem that could bypass any user required imput, Unless it is every 1-3 minutes its not going to stop bots, and if it is every 1-3 minutes it will piss off players really badly.

By players you mean "bot controllers" I guess? Are you implying that these bot-controllers do get inside their bot-controlled GW once in a while, may be to put the anti-bot features off the track?

Quote:

3) In some areas a company can make a profit by paying a person to run 3 or more accounts with the assistance of macros to farm money. Gold farming sweatshops.

Yeah, I realised it was the other side of the "boxing" coin, see:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/a-real-ra...tup-275902.php

Quote:

Best solution is to not buy gold, banning accounts only plays into Anets hands. The farmers are forced to buy more accounts (And don't be retarded, they buy them in wholesale and get a major discount) and anet makes more money.

That does not work, because it's out of our and Anet's hands. We may wish people not to be greedy, or lazy, but it won't happen. Not in this world. So that leaves us with either inaction, or proaction, which requires understanding.