Curse

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

That is probably the best post I've ever seen regarding this topic, Lyra.

leprekan · Jan 04, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

My opinion about that difficulty should matter less than Timmy the noob. Its supposed to be hard, thats why Timmy the noob finds it hard. If Timmy can instantly negate the need to know the area, to have knowledge of how to play and can just mash buttons to beat an area, this is good for Timmy.

But this isn't good for the game. The quality of a game is directly correlating to its integrity and maintaining good design principles.

Ursanway may make the game easier, but it doesn't make it better.

Imo, Ursan way is nothing more than an super-exploit. Its a broken skill. Its no different from using any skill thats more powerful than balanced game mechanics should allow. I remember when Thunderclap didnt end...and you could have continuous KD. That was a hell of a skill.

Now I know you'll say something like..."Oh its pve, pve doesnt need to be balanced."

If every monster dropped 100k, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you gained 20 levels on your first kill, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you can defeat any area of the game based on one skill,that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

Sorry but UB is not instawin .. so many people still fail with it that it should be left in as a basic IQ test.

I think pugs actually forming again in a game on the decline far out weighs the negatives. Timmy will still have to learn patrol pathing and agro management to survive .. UB or not. UB just gives Timmy a better shot at getting a group to do it.

Good design principles really do not apply to a game with no further chapters planned. UB 32 months ago .. YES I would have been 110% behind you on removing it. 32 months into a game losing players at an alarming rate .. sorry it is a much needed breath of life.

Guilty as charged .. I abused the hell out of Thunderclap in PvP when it was broken and enjoyed every second the opposite side was sitting down

upier · Jan 04, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But this isn't good for the game. The quality of a game is directly correlating to its integrity and maintaining good design principles.

Ursanway may make the game easier, but it doesn't make it better.

Imo, Ursan way is nothing more than an super-exploit. Its a broken skill. Its no different from using any skill thats more powerful than balanced game mechanics should allow. I remember when Thunderclap didnt end...and you could have continuous KD. That was a hell of a skill.

Now I know you'll say something like..."Oh its pve, pve doesnt need to be balanced."

If every monster dropped 100k, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you gained 20 levels on your first kill, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you can defeat any area of the game based on one skill,that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

NO.
PvE needs to be balanced.
But it NEVER was.
That's why I don't have a problem with Ursan.
It's just as bad as every other idea since the begging of GW PvE.

It's just that this time - the players aren't getting screwed.

Danax · Jan 04, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

If you can defeat any area of the game based on one skill,that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

Please, let's not talk about good game design decisions. Since when was boosting enemies well over the level cap, giving them infinite energy, half casting time on all spells, faster attacking speed, moving speed, and an extra skill or two and calling it Hard Mode a "good game design decision"?

Chicken Ftw · Jan 04, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danax

Please, let's not talk about good game design decisions. Since when was boosting enemies well over the level cap, giving them infinite energy, half casting time on all spells, faster attacking speed, moving speed, and an extra skill or two and calling it Hard Mode a "good game design decision"?

So one bad decision justifies another? I don't think so.

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

NO.
PvE needs to be balanced.
But it NEVER was.
That's why I don't have a problem with Ursan.
It's just as bad as every other idea since the begging of GW PvE.

It's just that this time - the players aren't getting screwed.

How would you "balance" PvE? I'm not saying "How could you do such a thing!!!" but I'm asking what you would do.

lyra_song · Jan 04, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danax

Please, let's not talk about good game design decisions. Since when was boosting enemies well over the level cap, giving them infinite energy, half casting time on all spells, faster attacking speed, moving speed, and an extra skill or two and calling it Hard Mode a "good game design decision"?

No. Lets.

Hard mode was a good design decision. Creating a mode that gives players a more engaging and challenging experience. Hell ya. The implementation however falls rather flat on its face. Hard mode isn't even really harder, just longer. Same enemy, takes longer to kill. And taking more time isnt the same as being harder.

They could have created balanced monster mobs with excellent skill synergy that require player skill, random patrol pathing. Good AI tactics, etc. But no..they cheaped out and used the "add 10 levels and lets call it a day" syndrome.

So what did you actually have to say?

aapo · Jan 04, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Theres a balance between pleasing your customers and actually having a good game just as there should be a balance between monster strength and player strength.

- There's a magical number where monster strength vs. player strength is in harmony with what players expect. Cheat here is the freedom of choice to select how difficult game we would like to play through our skill decisions. Ursan is the "very easy" mode, nothing else. Those who want to remove Ursan from the game really just want to take away this freedom of choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

They could have created balanced monster mobs with excellent skill synergy that require player skill, random patrol pathing. Good AI tactics, etc. But no..they cheaped out and used the "add 10 levels and lets call it a day" syndrome.

- It's too easy to just say "better AI". Try those charr groups in Ascalon. Lingering Curse, Power Block and Eviscerate are all worthwhile elites to use.

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- There's a magical number where monster strength vs. player strength is in harmony with what players expect. Cheat here is the freedom of choice to select how difficult game we would like to play through our skill decisions. Ursan is the "very easy" mode, nothing else. Those who want to remove Ursan from the game really just want to take away this freedom of choice.

Most players will not think "wow, what an overpowered skill this is," they will think "wow, I've gotten much better at this game!" They won't be seeing Ursan as an "easy mode."

aapo · Jan 04, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Most players will not think "wow, what an overpowered skill this is," they will think "wow, I've gotten much better at this game!" They won't be seeing Ursan as an "easy mode."

- I'm talking about this game, not what some imaginary players are feeling.

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- I'm talking about this game, not what some imaginary players are feeling.

That's interesting because I am talking about this game, and it's the common player that I'm referring to.

I have not read such an unconstructive post in a long time.

trobinson97 · Jan 04, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's interesting because I am talking about this game, and it's the common player that I'm referring to.

I have not read such an unconstructive post in a long time.

I don't think it's any more nonconstructive than yours. He's saying he's telling you how he feels, you're talking about what most players feel when you have no clue of what most players feel.

Bryant Again · Jan 04, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

I don't think it's any more nonconstructive than yours. He's saying he's telling you how he feels, you're talking about what most players feel when you have no clue of what most players feel.

I think based on the general fact of how many people consider healing as a monk to be the best route and how many people consider Healing Hands the best choice on a warrior that I'm not too far offtrack.

lyra_song · Jan 05, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- There's a magical number where monster strength vs. player strength is in harmony with what players expect. Cheat here is the freedom of choice to select how difficult game we would like to play through our skill decisions. Ursan is the "very easy" mode, nothing else. Those who want to remove Ursan from the game really just want to take away this freedom of choice.

Freedom of choice? Hardmode is supposed to be hard. Going into hardmode and turning it into easy mode is a very contradictory to its purpose and design.

Its like jamming a square hole in a round peg. Think about it.

I dont want to remove it. I want it balanced so it doesn't slaughter anything and everything. Its a cool concept but its really overpowered.

At the same time, i dont want it nerfed so it becomes utterly useless.
It should be good (to warrant being a PVE skill), but not too good.

Imo the best balanced PvE skills enhance and can coexist with existing skills and builds. But those builds would still work even without the PvE skill enhancing it.

{IceFire} · Jan 05, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Have used it for everything on my warrior since September, kthx.

DivineEnvoy · Jan 05, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Most players will not think "wow, what an overpowered skill this is," they will think "wow, I've gotten much better at this game!" They won't be seeing Ursan as an "easy mode."

Good for them, but out of curiousity, how did you manage to achieve the ultimate power of the human mind to read another mind, despite the distance, and understand exactly what they feel? There are a lot of Guild Wars players too, and did you feel what they all felt? If not, are you just assuming what players are feeling based on your logics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I think based on the general fact of how many people consider healing as a monk to be the best route and how many people consider Healing Hands the best choice on a warrior that I'm not too far offtrack.

Last time I went into a pickup group in Factions, I had two elementalists claiming that they can heal a lot better than normal monks. Later in Nightfall, I had a ranger who uses healing spells and claims that he can heal. I'm currently doing Temple runs, and I usually bring Arcane Mimicery to see what elites people have.
Here's a short list to what the warriors have:
Eviscerate, Cleave, Charge, Hundred Blades, Triple Chop, Ursan, Life Barrier.

Are you sure you know what the general population thinks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Freedom of choice? Hardmode is supposed to be hard. Going into hardmode and turning it into easy mode is a very contradictory to its purpose and design.

Its like jamming a square hole in a round peg. Think about it.

I dont want to remove it. I want it balanced so it doesn't slaughter anything and everything. Its a cool concept but its really overpowered.

At the same time, i dont want it nerfed so it becomes utterly useless.
It should be good (to warrant being a PVE skill), but not too good.

Imo the best balanced PvE skills enhance and can coexist with existing skills and builds. But those builds would still work even without the PvE skill enhancing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy on post 117

When Guild Wars was first released, there were two sides to the game: PvE and PvP. Of course, initially we all thought the so-called skills over time apply to both sides. However, throughout time, PvE was getting repetitive, and thus titles were added. People finish titles, and thus Hard Mode was added. Sadly, as many believed, Hard Mode was meant for challenges, although we should understand that Anet first released Hard Mode to make the players continue playing, so that they will purchase future releases. In that case, Hard Mode did not meet with Anet's expectations. Consequently, PvE-only skills are released to attract the mass population into playing Hard Mode. In this case, PvE-only skills became a threat to certain people's pride. Now the question is, will Anet really care about the minority who complains to drag the general population out of Hard Mode, which this minority believes that people without any skills, in their opinion, do not deserve to accomplish their entitlements, or will Anet really just want to satisfy the demands of the general population, so that the sale of Guild Wars 2 can be ensured a good profit?

Lastly, if you people really want a game where skills are truly mattered, Ursan and other PvE-only skills will never exist in it, it will be truly challenging as battle strategies change nearly every month from skill balancing, and you get to show off your skills to the general public through the Observe channel and win expensive prizes, why don't you just play PvP?

Bryant Again · Jan 05, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Good for them, but out of curiousity, how did you manage to achieve the ultimate power of the human mind to read another mind, despite the distance, and understand exactly what they feel? There are a lot of Guild Wars players too, and did you feel what they all felt? If not, are you just assuming what players are feeling based on your logics?

I'll answer that in this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Last time I went into a pickup group in Factions, I had two elementalists claiming that they can heal a lot better than normal monks. Later in Nightfall, I had a ranger who uses healing spells and claims that he can heal.

That's just the thing: A prot monk is much more viable than a healing monk. It's better on the energy and damage mitigation. So saying "I can heal better than a monk" is...not terribly impressive, most especially when Eles can deal some nice damage and Rangers are the best interrupters (and anyone can heal, it's the quality of healing that matters.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

I'm currently doing Temple runs, and I usually bring Arcane Mimicery to see what elites people have.
Here's a short list to what the warriors have:
Eviscerate, Cleave, Charge, Hundred Blades, Triple Chop, Ursan, Life Barrier.

Are you sure you know what the general population thinks?

You read too much into that. I'm saying people have a narrow sense in terms of what's good, or the best route, for their class. For a long time I ran a sword warrior build with Battle Rage and Mending. Frankly, I thought I was the shit. It wasn't until a couple months after that I started experimenting with Dragon Slash and focusing more into my Warrior attributes that I saw how much ass I could really kick.

My point? It takes a lot, and awhile, for people to realize what they're doing. And when Ursan is that powerful,

(and honestly, the fact that you saw warriors with Life Barrier kinda proves my point.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Lastly, if you people really want a game where skills are truly mattered, Ursan and other PvE-only skills will never exist in it, it will be truly challenging as battle strategies change nearly every month from skill balancing, and you get to show off your skills to the general public through the Observe channel and win expensive prizes, why don't you just play PvP?

So, if I wanted a PvE game where my skill mattered, I shouldn't play Guild Wars? You sure you want to advocate that?

And I'll comment on your older post since I came late to this party thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Sadly, as many believed, Hard Mode was meant for challenges, although we should understand that Anet first released Hard Mode to make the players continue playing, so that they will purchase future releases.

That's kinda silly. Why is it sad that Hard Mode was implemented to be challenging? It's called Hard mode. I think you're assuming a bit too much into ANet's expectations...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Consequently, PvE-only skills are released to attract the mass population into playing Hard Mode. In this case, PvE-only skills became a threat to certain people's pride.

It's not "hurting my pride", it's just kinda contradictory and - to be a little bit harsh - stupid: Why give a key to make Hard Mode easier when Normal mode is easy enough??

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

or will Anet really just want to satisfy the demands of the general population, so that the sale of Guild Wars 2 can be ensured a good profit?

Depends on the demands of the general population and who the general population is. Based on what I've said above of the "common player", I'd rather that they didn't.

They shouldn't listen to the general population for the same reason that (as Avarre kinda stated in a similar thread) skill aren't balanced around Random Arenas.

DivineEnvoy · Jan 05, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You read too much into that. I'm saying people have a narrow sense in terms of what's good, or the best route, for their class. For a long time I ran a sword warrior build with Battle Rage and Mending. Frankly, I thought I was the shit. It wasn't until a couple months after that I started experimenting with Dragon Slash and focusing more into my Warrior attributes that I saw how much ass I could really kick.

My point? It takes a lot, and awhile, for people to realize what they're doing. And when Ursan is that powerful,

(and honestly, the fat that you saw warriors with Life Barrier kinda proves my point.)

My point is, the so-called narrow sense in terms of what's good only applies to a minority of the population as we noted the variety of builds people can come up with, while no one needs to force them into doing anything. Secondly, it doesn't take long for people to realize the game mechanics and how to make effective builds. How? Go to PvXwiki and choose a build from the working - great section.

In addition to that, you need to note that most of us do not rely on our guilds or alliance when comes to a mission or a dungeon. We usually H/H or PuG, and many of us are stuck with the latter as players do perform a bit better than A.I's from time to time. Warriors with Life Barrier is a good example to the difficults we have to face with average PuG's as many casters would often try to tank. Ursan is more or less just another Life Barrier to avoid the trouble caused by our average PuG's.

If you don't believe me, here's a good example:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10232557

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So, if I wanted a PvE game where my skill mattered, I shouldn't play Guild Wars? You sure you want to advocate that?

Your skills in a PvE instance only matters to you and the people who care about that. Unfortunally, the rest of the community don't really care. And when you try to force your way down to other people, it doesn't work for us. In which means, PvP could be better choice for you, as it meets your standards better, and PvP is part of Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's kinda silly. Why is it sad that Hard Mode was implemented to be challenging? It's called Hard mode. I think you're assuming a bit too much into ANet's expectations...

It's not really assumptions. We don't need a Karl Marx to explain to us the basic theory to economics about the basics of marketing. The existing players of Guild Wars will be a major contribution to the sales of Guild Wars 2, and thus it's not surprising that Anet creates a new option for the general population to enjoy Hard Mode, so that Anet can ensure these players to play until the release of Guild Wars 2; of course, if you want challenge, that option is available too.

To be honest, the reason for implementing Hard Mode to be challenging is really your reason to play Hard Mode. However, for the rest of us, we have different reasons. Whether it's just time we are trying to kill or the few accomplishments we are trying to achieve, it does not affect you. In simple words, you do not have the rights to force your reason to play a game onto another person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's not "hurting my pride", it's just kinda contradictory and - to be a little bit harsh - stupid: Why give a key to make Hard Mode easier when Normal mode is easy enough?...

Anet spent months into making Hard Mode, and after it's release, hardly anyone plays or even tries it out. This leads me to a question, why implement Hard Mode for months just to satisfy a few people who are willing to try it, when you can satisfy the general public by making an additional expansion or campaign?

Relevantly, would you care to explain a confusion I have in real life. In order to get an admission to a university straight from high school, you need an A average or more, and for universities in United States, SAT scores are also needed. However, you can attend any community colleges if you meet one of the following requirements: you are at the age of 21 or you have graduated high school. Just a note, a college student can transfer to a university with credits to university courses, and there are no GPA requirements in doing so. What's the point in going straight to university from high school, while you have to work so hard for your grades when you can just go to college and transfer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Depends on the demands of the general population and who the general population is. Based on what I've said above of the "common player", I'd rather that they didn't.

Your so-called common players are really inexperienced or perhaps new comers, who still struggle in making builds. In all honesty, the general population I'm refering to is the casual players, which is the majority of the population, and as much as I know, they don't struggle in making builds.

Tyla · Jan 05, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As long as "I" don't need to use it - I don't see the issue.

Eh?
FoW.

Quote:

And once again - that is your problem ... because?
They play the game they want to.
And they suck at it.
I have the option to NOT play with them.
Instanced playing grounds never looked better!

They suck at it and think they're the best.
Agreed on not having the option to, but again: FoW.

Quote:

They are able to play.
It doesn't change anything for you.
But it means the world to the people that would be otherwise just too bad.
And there is a lot of those.

And the bad won't even make an effort to become better.

Ursan made PvE even more rediculously easy than it already is, and to boot people expect you to grind grind grind until its R10 anyway.
Trying to PuG FoW has never been harder. And nobody even does Trapping anymore: And that affects me and has changed something for me.

byteme! · Jan 05, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

If a skill will cut "time" down for me to get something done I'm going to use it. After 30 months of playing this bloody game I don't need to prove to anyone I'm "skilled" by bringing a so-called "normal" skill bar. If you think you're too good or too proud to use Ursan then don't! It's your time not mine so I could care less. I see alot of Ursan = teh suck in this thread. What if a high ranked PvPer decided to use Ursan because it was convenient or "put any reason here" does this mean he's an epic failure? Ursan = autofail = you are naive

In my situation I've found it alot faster to clear UW with Ursan because quite frankly my guildies aren't always around and even then they don't always have the right professions to fit the job. Forming an Ursan group is easier and quicker at times.

For some people Ursan and the like are a blessing. Without it their profession would never have been accepted into groups in certain areas. (yes i know about guilds....guess you skipped the previous paragraph)

If "insert any skill" + Hard Mode = Easy Mode then I've accomplished what I intended to do. Conquer. Does this mean I suck? Who cares? I've played 30+ months I don't want to do things the hard/slow/less convenient/more time consuming way. Kthxbye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Posted by lyra_song

Hardmode is supposed to be hard. Going into hardmode and turning it into easy mode is a very contradictory to its purpose and design.

With millions of skill combinations to choose from and an aged community (alot of us have been around for awhile) if NO ONE can turn Hard Mode into Easy Mode then we definately all SUCK. Thank god that's not the case.